Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm not tree-hugger or PETA freak, but I was just looking at the CITES page out of curiosity. For the year 2008, 4 countries in West Africa (Benin, Ghana, Togo, Niger) had quotas of 180,000 Ball Pythons for export!!
Albeit only 10,000 of those are to taken from the wild and the most of the rest are ranched (babies hatched from wild females), but that is still an astonishing number.

I know these are only quotas and may not represent the actual numbers exported, but the fact that the potential approaches over 6 figures is terrifying to me.

Add to this the extraordinary mortality rates of the ranched BPs (most don't eat and wither away and die). So if 50% survive (a ridiculously high estimate), we are (as an industry) killing off 50,000 baby BPs each year?

I'm no bunny hugger and I keep snakes, some of which are imports, but I had no idea the problem was this large. I thought 10,000 or 20,000 maybe....but 170,000 ? Ouch.

Is there anyone who can argue this is sustainable?
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I cannot argue it at all, The same thing happens with Savannah monitors, Iguanas and on a smaller scale rain forest snakes from Asia.

And to make it even worse, many of the animals that do survive wind up in the hands of total creeps who allow them to suffer and die slowly.

Just this summer we seized a ball python from a crack house, his enclosure was sitting on top of a large stereo system, green water in the bowl, multiple sheds on the floor of the enclosure and feces from many months of not cleaning.

Even if we as professionals push as strongly as we can to insist on captive bred and born animals, there will always be someone looking for that $20 baby BP.

Many of the Africans involved are doing this for less than a dollar a snake. (sickening isn't it?)

Cain's rescue story

-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (Eggs all hatched!)
1.3.13 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, Sharon & Kids
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.2.0 Thamnophis Sirtalis - Florida Blue stripe Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Hets
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.4 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.16 Thamnophis sirtalis - newborn Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.17 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided (R.I.P. little guy)
1.2.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue) 2 females recently aquired.
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC Pink eater!
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Sub-adult CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris" WC dropping eggs fast!
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

>>Is there anyone who can argue this is sustainable?

Um, if they're being ranched it's sustainable. Ethical is a different question.

Also, I suspect your assumption that most of those are going to the pet trade is incorrect. Think food, wallets, shoes and Chinese medicine. And no, I don't have any numbers, but I think that's a safe bet.
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Ranched does not necessarily mean sustainable. I can't speak for African countries, but I know from experience that regulations on these things are less than air tight in many poorer nations.
I would like to believe for example that the allotment of 20,000 captive bred B. constrictor in Nicaragua actually refers to captive bred individuals. However I find it highly unlikely. It is far too easy to slip a few bills in with your paper work and pass off wild caught individuals as captive bred for export.

Now perhaps I am being too cynical and passing unfair judgments, but I don't think so.

As far as how to make it sustainable? It is true that there will always be pet stores and less than responsible owners looking for the cheapest python, iguana, monitor, etc But that is what makes it all the more important for us as educators, breeders, and in general, responsible members of the herp community to pass on the need to support captive breeding and responsible pet ownership. You will never reach everyone, but you can try

Keep breeding, keep teaching, and above all keep learning. This is a perfect example of how we can all be hoodwinked.

what started out as my two cents turned into a rambling $1.50 but oh well
-----
lost in the jungle somewhere
Z

True, Education is key.

Is there anyone who can argue this is sustainable?
Um, if they're being ranched it's sustainable.

When they say ranched, I believe that means they go out and collect wild gravid females from their burrows, keep them until they lay eggs, hatch the eggs by the thousands and then either
- release the females or
- skin the females.

Either way, they are removing the next generations of BPs from the wild.

I would have to read the RH article to see the data.

Also, I suspect your assumption that most of those are going to the pet trade is incorrect. Think food, wallets, shoes and Chinese medicine. And no, I don't have any numbers, but I think that's a safe bet.

I agree. Clearly they are used for more than just pets, but to me it doesn't matter. Taking them from the wild is taking them from the wild, whether you put them in a rubbermaid or a medicine bottle. The effect to the wild population is the same.
-----
Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I meant to reply back that I probably misunderstood what was meant by ranched. That certainly changes things.

>>I agree. Clearly they are used for more than just pets, but to me it doesn't matter. Taking them from the wild is taking them from the wild, whether you put them in a rubbermaid or a medicine bottle. The effect to the wild population is the same.

I didn't meant to imply that taking large number for other reasons was any better. I was simply commenting on how a story like this tends to be used (and I don't mean by you) to show the "evils" of the pet trade, when I think (but don't really know) that the pet trade is a small segment.
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

and to think that at the first level here they are less than $5. ea., no one is making any huge $$ until they hit the secondary markets...However, if there wasn't a demand, there wouldn't be the numbers imported either.
Was there any break down of just where they are exported to and the % to each nation? Do they command more $$ in Europe?
I have no clue.
Do you know just how the "farming" is done? Are the gravid females kept until they lay then turned loose? Are ANY babies turned loose? Is there some sort of protocol involved here?
I remember seeing hundreds together and that a huge % were male. Are they sexed and culled before export?I also remember seeing a news report of sorts a few years back where they interviewed one or more of the "farmers".
Wasn't there an article in Reptiles as well?
Those numbers are staggering.
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

That is a staggering number anyway you look at it, and I would imagine, quite unnecessary.

I guess all of the pet stores/distributors buying imports want the $10.00 price tag of a normal import BP instead of the much higher prices from US breeders.
-----
Mark

We are talking about a country where they did the same with their own people. It was called slavery. It was wrong with people, and it is wrong with animals. Places in other countries that support them like some of the "Importers" who advertise on our very own Kingsnake.com are the only way to stop this. While I am also guilty of buying imports in the past, I try not to support certian immporters who are stop overs and order hundreds of Ball pythons or Savanha monitors or Iguannas. There are a couple reputable ones out there with morals. Unfortunately Ball pythons, Savanha monitors, and Iguannas have become "Disposeable Pets". They are usually the first reptile a "biginner" gets because they think they are cool. In reality they are animals that need more requirements than most other reptiles. From diet, nutrition, housing, heat, and UVB. Not to mention they can inflict serious wound on the untrained handler. Just my own 2 cents.

Nice point!
Dances With Reptiles

-----
Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (Eggs all hatched!)
1.3.13 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, Sharon & Kids
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.2.0 Thamnophis Sirtalis - Florida Blue stripe Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Hets
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.4 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.16 Thamnophis sirtalis - newborn Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.17 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided (R.I.P. little guy)
1.2.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue) 2 females recently aquired.
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC Pink eater!
0.1.0 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly snake (Her children were raised & released)
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Sub-adult CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Growing fast!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris" WC dropping eggs fast!
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

The numbers may be large, but they are sustainable. Just like Retics over in Indo, more land is being cleared for agriculture, which causes a boom in local and feral Rodent populations. That boom will support the animals that thrive in broken habitat, which in this case is Ball Pythons, and to a lesser extent, Rock Pythons. I tried to find this reference online. It was viewable as I've looked at it before, but I guess not now. Anyway, start with this:

Gorzula, S. (1998) A Ball Python Survey in Ghana. Reptile Hobbyist, 3(6, #24): 43-50.
-----
South Central Herpetological