Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All,

Am new to rat snakes, although I have the odd corn snake over the years and do have a pretty big collect of kingsnakes. Anyway, I got interested Asian ratsnakes and bought a pair of '03 Cave Beauties about one month ago.

Well, when I came home the other day I found the Cave Beauties dead - both of them. Am dumbfounded at the moment and really don't have a clue as to what happened. So I am hoping that some of you can help figure this out. I have talked to the breeder, but so far nothing conclusive.

I had them jointly housed in a large 20 gal (tall) tank with plenty of water, a hide box with moistened substrate, and climbing branches. One was dead on the "ground" and the other was dead in the hide box. Both were fine (no sign of trouble) the day before. They were in a room with my other animals (about 30 snakes in total of several genera) and all the other animals are fine. Both of the Caves ate twice since I have got them (last time about 6 days before they died).

The biggest suspect right now is room temperature. I keep all my animals in a sun room without heat pads. Have been doing that successfully for about 4 years now. The temp in the room probably got to 86 or 88 degrees that day, but it had been higher than that on two occassions.

I suppose this species can be very heat sensitive, but I had not heard of that and how much more sensitive than, e.g., eastern chain kings can they be?! (I have several hatchlings of those in the same room).

As you can tell, I am grasping at straws here. Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Eddie

The heat probably had a lot to do with it. A number of Ratsnakes from Asia are actually cool weather snakes. Heat is very stressful for them. Molendorf's, Mandrins-and Cave Rats need temps in the low 80's or even mid to upper 70's. With molendorf (100 flower) in particular....Is often imported in a highly paricitised condition. When exposed to a warmer environment the p's which are dormant, become active and rapidly kill the snake. For most of these snakes, keeping without AC is not a good idea...Frank

Ed, I'm real sorry to hear of your situation. What a way to start out with ratsnakes. However, I agree with Frank that heat was probably the culprit.

American ratsnakes are different from Asian ratsnakes in many ways. One is that they are more heat tolerant. Asian ratsnakes seem to require steadier, and cooler temps. One reason is that the humidity is so high there. I believe they spend a lot of time underground, or in caves, to avoid the terrible heat and humidity. So, they end up having fairly cool temps during the day underground, and this is almost year 'round.

My moellendorffi, Chinese red-headed rats, were like that until they got more used to my herp room. They would never come out until early morning. Gradually they got more trusting of the conditions, over the years.

I normally keep my herp room 70-80*F. In the summer it ocassionally gets up to about 82* on really hot days (no a/c). The moellendorffi have weathered this with little problems, but they do seem to get uncomfortable at the high temps. Of course, this is out of the direct sun. Make sure, in your sun room, the direct sun doesn't hit on cages heating them excessively.

I also have t. taeniurus, Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, that do well at these same temps. Even taeniurus from the far north of their range seem to hide most of the time. I think the Asians, especially adults, could weather temps 86-88* for a short time with little effort, but your sun room may have had these temps for the majority of the day. That would be very stressful on babies, imho. Then, I don't keep cave rats either. How 'bout some opinions from those that do on temp requirements?

Ed, hang in there. It's a big loss, but it's a great hobby. We have to absorb losses sometimes and move on, gradually gaining experience that will benefit the hobby and others. By the way, you do have dione, correct? And they have survived ok in the same room. I guess the 'caves' are more sensitive than I knew about.

Good luck....TC.

Hi Ed,

What a shame...I definitely feel for you.

I keep a pair of ridleyi, and was lucky enough to breed them this year.

I am absolutely positive that the high temps were to blame. My adults are distinctly uncomfortable at temps over 82 degrees F., and they'll coil around their water dishes if it's to warm. This behaviour has taught me to keep the room temps at 79 degrees ambient, which is also okay for my other North American colubrids.
I have spoken with someone who has actually lived where these snakes are found, and he has told me that the caves where they are found are very cool.

Don't forget that small snakes succumb more quicky to extremes of heat and cold than larger specimens, because of their lesser body mass.

Again, I offer my condolences.

Simon

...who posted with help. From listening to the responses and re-evaluating the conditions in my snake room at the time of the incident, it is pretty clear now that high temps (high 80s) must have been the problem.

It's just a shame that I was not made aware how sensitive to moderate heat this species can be. And it must be a case of species-specific sensitivity, because Terry was right that I also have a young Elaphe dione in my collection (same room) and it did not die. I also have a hatchling Durango Mountain Pine snake (P. deppei deppei) in the same room and it did not die. It looks healthy too and ate like a trooper yesterday. This species comes from over 6,000 ft and is supposed to like it cool.

I will live and learn from the incident and hopefully, if others read about this, they will, too. If it's Cave Beauties you want, better make sure you keep them cool – or you could be out a few hundred bucks!

I would imagine you would have been responsible enough to do a little research and know beauty snakes require cooler temperatures. Especially if you have 30 other snakes. Hope you learnt your lesson.

Asian Herper

I did a lot of reading on this species but only found one or two general comments about this species liking it cool. At no time did I come across a statement that temps in the high 80s (not even 90s) would kill this species in a matter of hours.

Perhaps in your extensive research and experience with this species you can enlighten me as to a specific reference that warns against these temperatures.

And yes, your admonition aside, I have learned my lesson.

That is a heck of a first post. You should grow up a little more before you post here

TC

>>I would imagine you would have been responsible enough to do a little research and know beauty snakes require cooler temperatures. Especially if you have 30 other snakes. Hope you learnt your lesson.
>>
>> Asian Herper

I have kept cave rats for a few years now, and managed to breed them this year.
I keep mine in the low 80's, with a slight drop at night, and in
our winter{UK} the night temps get to around 68-70 f.
We did have an almighty heatwave this year, and i struggled to keep the room temps below ninety, i utilised a fan to keep them cool. they fed normally throughout.
I also sprayed them every day, sometimes twice.
I have been lucky enough to see them in their natural environment
in Taman nagara national park in malaysia, and although the temp
in the caves was way below the outside, it was still pretty
warm, and very very humid, i was crawling through very moist bat guano, which covered pretty much the entire cave floor.
The temps may well have caused their deaths, but maybe it was
some other factor, a bad batch of rats/mice?
Dont be too put off, Ridleyi are one of the best.
Good luck
Excuse the bad pic, it was taken in the dark!

hogboy,

Thanks for the info. I had a moist hide box in the tank but it probably did not do much for humidity - and that probably contributed.

Don't apologise for the pic - any pic of a wild snake (especially one as remote as that) is a good one!

Eddie

I keep a large ice cream container, with about an inch of damp vermiculite in the cage at all times, the female spends most of her time in there.
When i spray them, i give them a real soaking, which keeps the humidity fairly high.
And during the summer months, they pretty much have zero additional heating, if it gets cool i provide an 8watt night light.
It really was amazing to see them in their wild state, i had only dreamt of seeing one when i booked my vacation.
In the National park reception area they actually had a large poster of a ridleyi, and our guide assured us that we would
be in with a good chance of seeing one.
It was also cool to see monitors very at home in the grounds of the site, i opened my chalet door in the morning to see the little guys almost everywhere.

Thanks
Heres another pic from my trip, its not a ratsnake, but so cool
when you see a wild one at close quarters.
An adult Bengal monitor scrounging near a kitchen.

Don't know about "scrounging" - that boy looks well fed! Thanks for the pic.

Eddie

....even if it isn't a ratsnake. Later...TC.