Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i've have my cali king for about 7 months. it's been a great feeder, devouring almost every f/t mouse i've offered. it stopped eating pretty much since its last shed, which was 2-3 weeks ago. i know they sometimes stop eating when the weather is changing. it seems like it might have lost some weight, but it definitely still has some meat on it. it remains active in its cage, usually coming out of his hide once or twice a day to explore. at what point should i start to be concerned?

It sounds like your snake is done eating for this year and wants to go down for the winter.

Keep him on heat for another week to make sure his digestive system is clean then unplug the heat and move the tank to a cool spot in your home till late january.. Then warm it up slowly and he will eat for you again.. Remember to always provide fresh water during hibernation..

Good luck!

~ Mike Russo

is this normal for a young king like mine (its about 2.5 feet) to stop eating for several months like that during the winter? i know snakes normally can last for a while without eating, but if i wait till january like you say then it won't have eaten for about 3 months. also, i keep half the tank heated with an undertank heater. can he hibernate for the winter like this or should i remove the heating pad from the hot side of the tank completely?

It is totally normal.. Some folks hibernate all of their snakes including hatchlings..

You don't need to remove the heat pad, just unplug it and let the temps drop to 60/65 and your all good.

~ Mike Russo

Is it detrimental to the snake to NOT hibernate (is it called brumating with kings?)?

Having just acquired a little worm myself, I had not even thought about doing it - but I'm a dry sponge right now - willing to soak in knowledge!

Although some keepers feel it is best to hibernate every winter, as an animal would in nature. It is a generally accepted opinion that you do not have to brumate/hibernate (same thing different words) if you are not planning to breed. But, if your animal goes off feed then it is always best to hibernate them to avoid excessive weight loss due to not eating for 2/3 months.

~ Mike Russo

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Thanks Mike! I appreciate the information!

Mike,That is a smokin' grey band!! Jeff

Incredible grey-band Mike. That just knocks my socks off!
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Darwin Rocks!

hey mike,,,,
it gets 60-65 at night here,,but goes to around 70-75 in the day.
Is that too warm to hibernate them? I know the night temp is good enough,,but not sure about the daytime.
By the way,,beautiful GBKs,,,if i had another space in my rack,,i would be after one of those.
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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python 1.0
Eastern King 0.1
Mexican Black King
Great Basin Gopher
Hypo Brooks 1.0
White Sided Bull 1.0 (Envy)
Striped Pacific Gopher (Envy)
Axanthic Brooksi 0.1 (Mark Kenderdine)
Goini King 1.0 (Mark Kenderdine)
Northern Pine 1.0 (Nick Puder)
Arizona Mtn. King 1.0 (AAM Snakes)

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

Thanks for the compliments on the Alterna..

Personally I do not like a 10 degree day/night temp swing in hibernation and i would tend to reccomend against it and look for a spot with a more stable temps... But, i am very interested in hearing others opinions on this topic.

Any input on this guys??

~ Mike Russo

is it normal for the snake to be active during this hibernation? cause mine seems very active, it just found a way to climb along the ridge on the along the top of the tank and then took a spill down to the bottom.

Well, they will still move around a bit... But, you did not drop the temps yet so he is not really in hibernation. Once you drop the temps he will be less active.

~ Mike Russo

I would agree with Mike. I am not looking for a 10 degree swing from day/night during this time either. I have had good luck with a more constant temperature.
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Shane@
SSuperiorSSerpents.com

I've seen internal temp data on canebreak rattlers hibernating in coastal Virginia and it suggests relatively stable temperatures during hibernation. Based on this, I would agree that temp swings for hibernating snakes are ill advised.
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Darwin Rocks!

Please consider, your missing a big part of snake behavior.

When conditions become unsuitable, they MOVE to more suitable conditions. They keep doing so until they find conditions that will allow them to be active as long as they can, then they may become inactive.

The key is, as long as they can find food and water/moisture, they will seek MORE suitable conditions.

Again, My snakes have some choices, so they continue to feed and they will feed all winter, unless I turn the heat off, If I choose.

What is odd is, on our montane rattlesnake study, its now smack in the middle of feeding season. And its at 6500 ft. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm Odd I tell ya. Cheers

"on our montane rattlesnake study, its now smack in the middle of feeding season."

Frank is this a wild or captive population? If wild could you please:

ID time and duration of feeding season

DTHs and NTLs

and how are you determining that the animals are actively feeding?
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Darwin Rocks!

You finally ask good questions instead of your snide remarks, Thank you so very much.

In this case, we, my partner and I, have a permitted, 18 years worth of records from one site. Of course, I watched that site for over five years before we decided to use it for a study site.

Ours is a tag/recapture study. Which means we catch a specimen, examine it, which includes all sort of data, including temps, head and internal body temps, direction, time, incline, identifiable behavior, body inspection, fecal inspection, palpate for ovum/embryos, food bolus(type and condition, tumors, etc. area temps, under, air, one meter up, etc. We record this and any other data.

While a tag/recapture study does miss data, it also hits lots of data. As in, known verse unknown. What we record is a known.

In this case, feeding in the fall and winter fits directly into the known, as during this time of year, they must surface to gain heat to digest their bolus. So they are easy to observe in the winter. So yes, we have eighteen years of fall winter feeding records. Also, on our study, a high percentage of females have enlarged ovum. A few years we recorded embryos in some females. During the entire winter. All individuals were surface active.

We do miss spring/early summer feeding, as in, its more in the unknown. As they could be digesting prey more underground. Yes, we have seen some, not not commonly like in the fall and winter.

On our site are other species including kingsnakes(pyros).

The problem with your thinking is, Daytime highs(dth's) and night time lows(ntl's) are not the deciding factor, those are humans points that snakes value very little. While they do have an influence, they are not considered by the animals. Air temps are a very inaccurate why to understand the behavioral choices of snakes or most reptiles.

Reptiles, and in this case, snakes, directly relate to mass or surface temps. THESE ARE KEY to understanding snake behavior and movement.

A few years ago, I narrated a midwinter day on our site. Just the temps.

The daytime high was 45F, night time lows were low teens. There was snow in the shady areas. Using a infrared heat gun, we recorded surface temps. I could ask you to guess the range we found but you would not have a clue, so I will not do that.

The range we recorded using the infrared heatgun, was 12F to 144F. Air temps recorded(quick read mercury thermo) were 12F to 52F. So you see, there was a huge huge huge difference.

That day, there were many surface active snakes and lizards. Including gravid females and feeding individuals and gravid females that had food bolus. Of interest, the snakes with a high heat requirement(food bolus or gravid) were in the areas of 85F to 100F, other snakes were in areas of 65f to 75F. Lizards were commonly found in the areas with higher temps, up to the 144F.

The temps were directly related to mass material and sun exposure, not necessarily air temps, or DTH's or NTL's. They were also directly related to landform.

In short, these snakes move to areas that permit them to achieve normal metabolic function, year around. Or as long as possible.

When the surface temps become unsuitable, they remain in underground areas where are mass temps that allow them to maintain activity.

That is, when in these areas or dens, they are not sleeping, they do move in a prejudiced manner. This is to be compared to other individuals in the same area that are indeed in holes and are not moving what so ever. These are usually subadult and non breeders. These may not have any need to extend their season, so they do not.

The problem with some of you keepers is, you seem to base your actions/thoughts ON YOU and not the snakes. Then you wonder why things go wrong. You also teach a poor understanding of reptilian behavior. My task here is to not change your ways, but to inform you that what you do is BASED on YOU, and not the snake. If it works for you, great, but its still you and not what the snakes would naturally choose.

The common term used here is, "THEY", do this or that. The "they" indicates the snakes do this or that. But that is false, the "they" use here, is more about keepers that do this and that.

The they(the snakes) would perfer to make their own choices. An ability they have honed throught the history of their species. I have said many times before, on our sites, they spend every minute of every day, picking different temps. Not one.

Thanks for letting me rant, and please understand, its nothing personal. Its just that no one here stands up for these wonderful snakes we keep. Please understand, the snakes we keep are no different then the wild ones. In fact, many captives on this forum were wild in the spring or summer when they were collected. So do not give me that captive snakes are different. Cheers

"You finally ask good questions instead of your snide remarks, Thank you so very much. "

No problem Frank, you original post didn't enlist a "snide remark".

A while back I was fortunate enough to read a study of thermoregulation as done on eastern rattlesnakes. The article did a compare and contrast between mountain and coastal populations that has continued to influence how I think about reptile behavior ever since. For anyone interested, the study is published in Snakes: Ecology and Behavior. I forget the authors but several chapters were fascinating reads.

There is no doubt that wild populations adapt to conditions from diverse locals and develop specific behaviors that allow them to make maximum use of any given habitat's resources. Your rattlers are taking advantage of their mountain home's thermal mass and shielded micro-climates to extend their breeding season because they are able to achieve adequate temperatures frequently enough such that over winter feeding and breeding is possible. Not all wild populations have such options available to them and they as a consequence their manifest behavior is quite different.

Anyway, my question has always been, are these behaviors learned or are they genetically encoded? For snakes, is behavior a question of choice or are certain instincts selected for survival at a greater rate until they and their progeny make up the balk of the population? Certainly an exaggerated ability to thermoregulate is an advantage for montain species where classic seasons are too short.

I think these questions are largely unanswerable but how one feels about the subject (nature vs nurture if you will) is certainly going to influence how they approach the captive care of reptiles. Personally I think both influences play a role but my bias is to think that genetics play the bigger part froma population standpoint. As a consequence, I don't feel that the behavior of montain rattlesnakes (or pyros) is necessarily instructive on how to best maintain all captive king snakes. Montain species act like montain species because they are montain species. They didn't emigrate there amass and learn to exploit the new environment in one or two generations.

This view of course does not take anything away from some very interesting observations Frank and I thank you for your reply.

As for the inevitable, " The problem with some of you keepers is", or "The problem with your thinking is" or " you would not have a clue" or " You also teach a poor understanding" they are snide comments too.

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Darwin Rocks!

So, you’re saying there has never been a snake in history that went off food for the winter?? And, I am 100% wrong?

If so from this point forward the rest of us herp neophytes will stick to posting pic's and making goofy comments and leave all the tough husbandry questions to you..

~ Mike Russo

If this is true then why do certain snakes mysteriously stop feeding in the fall despite NO CHANGE IN CONDITIONS. (Except day length) Those conditions are OK for eating and growth over the summer but then over the winter they are not OK anymore....????

I don't think so.

ALL MY SNAKES EAT THROUGH THE WINTER. i BRUMATE THEM THIS WAY BY GIVING THEM A CHOICE OF HOT AND COLD. WHEN THEY EAT THEY SIT ON THE HEAT AND WHEN THEY FINISH THE DIGESTION AND ELIMINATION PROCESS THEY SIT ON THE COLD SIDE. I STARTED DOING THIS A FEW YEARS BACK WHEN i WAS IN A MOVE AND HAD TO KEEP SOME OF MY SNAKES AT MY PARENTS GARAGE. IT WAS FREEZING COLD IN THERE AND SO i LEFT THE HEAT ON. THEN THEY STILL ATE AND BRED THAT SEASON. I HAVE PRACTICED THIS TO SOME DEGREE SINCE THEN BUT WHEN FR STARTED POSTING ABOUT GIVING CHOICES I DO THIS WITH ALL MY SNAKES. I FEED THE FEMALES MOSTLY AND THE SMALLER SNAKES THAT ARE BORDERLINE BREEDING SIZE. THE MALES I GIVE LESS FOOD (BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE, NOT THE SNAKES!~)SOME DO REFUSE FOOD FOR A SHORT PERIOD (LIKE 3-4 WEEKS)BUT THEN COME OUT EATING WELL AFTER A SHORT BREAK...AGAIN!~~~~ I THINK IT IS ABOUT CHOICES.

KINGSNAKES, MILKSNAKES AND RATSNAKES WILL EAT DURING WINTER (IF THEY CAN FIND WARMTH). AND THEY STILL CYCLE JUST FINE! I NEVER TRIED THIS WITH ROSY BOAS AND NOW I WISH I HAD.

I DON'T THINK THIS LONG COOLING PERIOD IS NECESSARY OR HEALTHY FOR THE SNAKES. AS LONG AS ARE OFFERRRED A FEW DAYS OF A TEMP DROP THEY CYCLE TO PRODUCE FOLLICLES AND SPERM AND THAT IS WHAT WE AS BREEDERS WANT TO HAPPEN.

This whole idea that ALL kings will eat all winter if given the choice is crap. I'm sorry, but it is.

I give my snakes a reasonably wide temperature gradient. My cages are around 90 at the warm end and 65 ish at the cool end. I wish that I could come up with a way to get an even bigger gradient but this is the best I have been able to work out. The actual temps aren't even that important.

Here is whats important... its very simple.

I have several cal kings, 3 adult breeding males to be exact, that all begin refusing food within a few days of each other every year. Their cage conditions do not change. I continue to offer food. The other 20 kings kept in the same conditions continue to eat (albeit a little less). The only environmental change is day length.

These snakes want to stop eating.

The conditions are perfectly fine for digestion, yet THEY CHOOSE NOT TO EAT. Hmmm

Snakes have evolved for a long time to survive in an environment that asks them to make huge seasonal changes in their lifestyle. Why would they not have deeply seated circadian rythms / seasonal cycles? Why do people expect them to just overcome their evolutionary drives because you decide you want to leave the heat tape on?

When a snake kept in "proper" conditions stops feeding of his own accord I LISTEN and allow that snake to get even cooler. I have tried leaving the heat on and offering food to those three males. By spring they were the skinniest they have ever been. Yet when I unplug them, and move them over near the window so they are around 60 degrees, they hardly loose an ounce, and come up in spring raring to go.

I don't know about you but I do what I see works with my own eyes.

I am not saying that everyone should hibernate their snakes. I don't believe that at all. I am just saying that some snakes will CHOOSE to rest and conserve energy over the winter if given that chance. And keepers should be aware of what those individual snakes are trying to tell them.

The conditions are perfectly fine for digestion, yet THEY CHOOSE NOT TO EAT. Hmmm

All of my experience is in Calif and Georgia. Maybe keeping snakes in northern latitudes males a difference. I don't know? I have maintained a collection of 300 snakes over the last 25 years. Before then I had less but still worked with snakes since 1960's. I remeber reading Karl Kaufelds book back then and how he talked about Bull snakes going off feed no matter how warm he kept them. But I think he was in in Kansas or some place like that. Otherwise I have no idea on what latitude and longtitude do to certain species. But my snakes here in Georgia do eat all if I give them the choices.

In a collection of over 300 snakes you don't have a single snake that shuts down for you? Because I don't know the particulars I will not say that I don't believe it but I don't think your lattitude had anything to do with it. Heres what I would ask:

1) What species is the collection composed of? What is the breakdown, is it 90% brooks morphs and 10% pyro or montain forms.....

2) Were is your stock from? Is most of it produced by you or others who similarly feed and breed their animals over winter?

3) Lastly because you make your living breeding snakes it makes sence to me that you would adopt a husbandry method that would both maximize and spread you production over a greater portion of the year. Is it possible that you just eliminate snakes from your collection that don't adapt to the strategy?
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Darwin Rocks!

1) What species is the collection composed of? What is the breakdown, is it 90% brooks morphs and 10% pyro or montain forms.....

Now they consist mostly of Florida kings with just a few cal kings, ratsnakes, hybrids, milksnakes and odds and ends. But 97% Florida kings.
I did try feeding w/c rubber boas (and captive born from w/c stock) through the winter with no success. Most of the babies don't want to feed until spring and eat their first meal then.

I also maintained a large collection of rosy boas for many years and those babies just seemed to have a slow metabolism so sometimes they would go off food during the summer or winter for no reason..

With mountain kings I have no experience with pyros on a large scale but w/c calif mountain kings I have. The seirra mnt kings tend to go off food during fall but the babies they produced didn't (because I fed them through the winters). However the southern /coast mnt kings ate fine during the winter months.

2) Were is your stock from? Is most of it produced by you or others who similarly feed and breed their animals over winter?
I have been working with my Florida kings for so long now that I would have to consider them my stock.

3) Lastly because you make your living breeding snakes it makes sence to me that you would adopt a husbandry method that would both maximize and spread you production over a greater portion of the year. Is it possible that you just eliminate snakes from your collection that don't adapt to the strategy?

I don't like fussy feeders but sometimes I have to hold onto them because they might be a new combo or is just a well producing female. These are usually snakes that refuse F/t and inssit on live mice.

I think you may have read over the part in my post where I said that when some of my Florida kings stop feeding during the winter I simply cool them for a few weeks. After that period they usually come out eating like champs. But same thing goes in the summer... If one of my snakes does not eat right away I don't stress. I just wait and take note that it refused a meal and they eventually feed later on. Maybe because some babies go through a period of absorbing yolk or excess fat or adults that are in breeding season go off feed. BUT one thing I don't do is try every method under the sun to feed (or forcefeed the snake) I don't have snakes that need scenting and most will jump on a live pink (if they refuse frozen).Instead I HAVE PATIENCE!!!!!!! If a baby neonate goes off food this time of year I simply cool it and it will come out eating after I give it time off for a few weeks and oftentimes it will be a more foracious feeder than the ones that have been feeding all along and SURPASS those in growth by April.

Overall THIS time of year is when my snakes feed the best. Maybe they know they have to store extra fat for the upcoming breeding season?.. and take in more food because of that so they can prepare themselves for producing eggs? Maybe in nbature these snake don't get enough food to store up reserves to breed every season??-Anyway, I know that is true with rosys boas. I think mountain kings have an ample supply of lizards so they probably breed every year. Don't know if this is true or not but just a guess. What I am saying it probably depends on the locale and species.

"The seirra mnt kings tend to go off food during fall but the babies they produced didn't (because I fed them through the winters). However the southern /coast mnt kings ate fine during the winter months."

This is interesting. I have the same thing with my coastals. Quite often neonates and juveniles will feed right through their first two winters and then they by and large turn off in subsequent years. Among my coastals it is the rare animal that doesn't stop feeding.

Anyway, from the rest of your reply I don't think the latitude the collection is held is as important as where it is from.
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Darwin Rocks!

Anyway, from the rest of your reply I don't think the latitude the collection is held is as important as where it is from.

Therer are probably many variables that differ from collection locations, spp latitude and general habits. For instance the Hoyers who have been collecting and studying rubber boas know that babies and adults don't eat during winter months (and some are from extreme coastal regions at or near sea level). It seems that baby Rubber boas that are born in the summer just wait until the following spring to eat. That is maybe why these are not as popular in collections with hobbiests because THEY THINK that they should eat right after the first shed. After working with these I learned to just keep them cool and wait for spring. It seems to me to be normal for this sp.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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Darwin Rocks!

First, Tony, you deny something exsists because YOU do not know how to accomplish it. You say, most snakes or certain snakes go off feed because they are suppose to. What you do not think about is, Its you that does not know what to offer them to allow them to make the choice they need to make.

Bluerosy is simply stating fact, IN HIS EXPIENCE, this does this and that does that. Which is perfect. But it still does not apply to the animals. Heres the point.

Yes, species or even different populations adjust to different habitats. Thus they make different decisions, but they have the same requirements. Just think about it. All these colubrids being bred commonly in captivity, come from the north, from central america, from the wetlands, from the deserts, etc. YET, common captive husbandry is so very narrow. Which means animals from all these different areas are raised and bred exactly alike.

The truth is, their requirements are nearly exactly alike(within a few degrees of heat and moisture). Even nutrional needs are alike, they are all raised on mice(rodents) Yet again, they come from a huge varity of habitats and consume a huge varity of prey types.

What is different is HOW they obtain the same requirements. This is where you fail. You offer them the same conditions and expect them to react the same as other species.

Each population, can have much different landforms or soil types, rock base, or earth based or tree based(kings in wetlands) An example, some zonatas are granite rock based and all their decisons are based on obtaining their needs from this type area. Yet zonatas from the Santa Anas, are earth based and make their choices from that enviornment.

So, its very simple, you must offer them a choice they know how to make. If not, they will not make that choice. In the varanid world its called USEABLE heat, not just heat. Varanids are very critical about how they obtain heat. As are many snake species or snake individuals. Some will not use open heat. They require closed heat. In fact, most normally thermoregulate in tight situations. If you fail to offer that, they will not use the heat they need.

Back to the point, So you keep your conditions the same, and then label the animals. How about using your head(the one you think is so very smart) and offering things that may fit that species or individual. If you offer the right conditions, you may very will recieve different results. Simply put, life is the ability to respond to an impulse. You must offer the right impulse. You are in control.

You seem so very irratated that I am a pioneer and founded so many species(snakes and other reptiles in captivity) well I have done that because I do not try the same thing over and over expecting different results. I simply try things(as Joe Lazlo did at San Anton zoo) I may not know what to offer, either did Joe, we just keep offering until we recieve the right results.

I am lucky, I use nature as a guide, not other keepers, or even captive results. This has served me well. It has shown me what to work towards. Thats why I say, they DO NOT STOP FEEDING, as the first cool spells. They simply move to warmer conditions and keep feeding. And Yes, in some areas, they will run out of options and become inactive. In some areas, they never become inactive, in others a fairly long time. But there is a maximum time they can be inactive, then they will cease to exsist in areas where they cannot maintain X amount of active time. Cheers

>>>>>I simply try things(as Joe Lazlo did at San Anton zoo) I may not know what to offer, either did Joe, we just keep offering until we receive the right results.

I can tell you some great Laszlo stories. I really miss that guy. I started pestering him (along with Peterson and Kardon) when I was about 10. He ALWAYS had time for me, and shared everything he knew, or thought he knew, and every new idea he had, hair brained or not. He let me fondle (and clean the cage) of every non-venomous snake in that Zoo until his death. Laszlo had a temendous amount of respect for you as well. That's who hooked me up with you in '79.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

So what would you do if a snake did stop feeding for you in the fall. I'm sure with all of your years you must have experienced this at least a few times.

Do you make them warmer and keep offering food?

Do you give them a bigger gradient and keep offering food?

Would you be concerned if you had a whole collection of snakes that ate all winter and only one or two that didn't.

I get what you say about wild snakes. But our snakes aren't wild. They are snakes in boxes. Thats the reality.

I was amazed when I brought my temp gun to the field for the first time on a cold day. Just like you posted below, the temp ranges of different surfaces are incredible...and not even remotely possible to replicate in most captive situations.

So, given that these snakes are not in the wild... but we try to do the best we can. What would you recommend for my the three males I mentioned above? I am not concerned for them in the least. In fact I am happy with their performance. I am just curious what you would do differently.

I have experiencee it a million times. I take it as a message, not a condition. It tells me the snake wants to make choice.

If I want or think the snake will benefit from an extended active period, I simply adjust the cage conditions until it feeds again.

I think the problem with most here is the base temps they use. They offer something like 84F. That is marginal for summer, muchless winter.

With all snakes, winter or summer, I like to offer a base hot area of 100F. Then they can choose any temp they want below that. And yes, they all will feed.

I think I will explain that in a new post above. Thanks

What I do and say here isn't about you Frank, its about the exchange of ideas and information. I am not an absolutist. I doubt that you are either but your posts often come across that way so I respond with alternative views. This is a completely legitimate use of the forum. That you see this as an affront to your "pioneer" status is your issue not mine.
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Darwin Rocks!

Do you have windows in your snake room?

This whole idea that ALL kings will eat all winter if given the choice is crap. I'm sorry, but it is.

What part of the U.S. do you live in?

I recently moved from Vermont to Northern Colorado. Here the daylight doesn't change as much, but these snakes were all raised for years in rooms with windows in northern Vermont, so they had pretty extreme changes. Temps, even with the heat on got lots lower on the cool side too.

Maybe the snakes are not responding to heat but the air outside. Maybe snakes from southern latitudes are more prone to shut down when they are in northern latitudes?

I really don't know the answer to this. So this is a question on anyone who has raised and fed snakes in the winter in both latitudes.

I have mentioned this before, during my years as a zoo exhibit builder, I lived in many parts of the country. I have no problem with snakes from any area, wild caught or not.

I will explain(I hope) in a new post above. Cheers

I lived in many parts of the country. I have no problem with snakes from any area, wild caught or not.

Ahh. Sorry i must have missed those posts.

It was really an honest question i did not know the answer to. Now I know that northern latitudes should not have an effect irregardless of the temps and conditions outdoors.

I have some snakes that stop eating whether they are warm or not.

My adult female Pac Gopher has gone off feed, she did the same last fall.
Three of my adult male Cal Kings have gone off feed, they did the same last year.
One of my MBK's has gone off feed, she ate through last winter.

My male brooksi, male pac gopher, and all my corns continue to feed.

Since males often don't eat much or at all during breeding season, you bet I'm going to brumate any that go off feed in the fall - otherwise that's a long time at warmth when they do not eat.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

How do you know they are going off food altogether, though?

What if they, knowing winter is approaching, want something different? Maybe something a lot smaller that they know they will have time to digest if a cold front moves in quickly?

I think snakes are a lot more adaptive and intelligent than people give them credit for.

I think FR was just implying that we're keeping them in unnatural conditions to begin with, so why are we trying to replicate nature when it's possible that's not what the snake wants to begin with? Give the choice and conditions, they may very well eat, breed, and thrive all winter long.

I talked with Dave Barker about this years ago as he was doing about the same thing with good results. It tried it and it worked for most but not all of my snakes. It did not work with my coastal plains milks and I might add that the Barkers reported poor success with them as well.

I don't think anyone here is saying that you can't feed and breed snakes over winter because obiously you can. That does not change the fact however that some snakes automatically stop feeding this time of year and them doing so is not always attributable to poor conditions or lack of choice.
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Darwin Rocks!

it just depends on what you keep (species, CB or WC), where the species is from, how you keep it (particular set up), your location (Canada vs San Antonio), what those animals may be accustomed to eating at that particular time of the year (snakes, mice, birds, amphibians, etc.), the weather (weather outside effects weather inside (pressure, temp and humidity), and other variables I'm sure.

I've got snakes that went off feed a month ago, and others that show no sign of going off feed. Could be I'm not keeping them correctly, or I'm not offering the right food item, or they are hard wired to go off feed this time of the year. I'm not keeping any willardi at the moment, but I saw some captive neonates last week that are still feeding strong. Willardi are not kingsnakes though

I think when you start talking absolutes, you're in trouble because there are always exceptions.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Good straight to the point post Joe. I didn't intend to communicate absolutes; in fact I'm trying to point out the opposite as you did. Thanks for the help because I obviously failed miserably!
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Darwin Rocks!

actually that reply could have been posted anywhere rather than under your post. I did not mean to insinuate that you were speaking in absolutes, because you obviously were not.

I just wanted to add my 2 cents
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I agree with Mike.

It is generally not a good idea to keep them in temps in the 70s constantly. Better that they can access nice cool temps in the high 50s or low 60s, at least at night.

What I do is let most of the cage cool down to the low 60s or high 50s. This is not always possible during the day, but quite easy at night. I still provide a heat pad during the day, and let nights go without. Snakes do well that way. They will sometimes use the heat pad during the day and sometimes not.

Kings do better with temperatures either in the 80s (even 90s for short periods, maybe even 100 deg briefly) and then the low 60s or high 50s, rather than 72 deg all of the time.
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Mark

wow i can't believe my post generated many responses. anyway, thanks to all for all the input. as of now i unplugged the heating pad, and turned down the thermostat a few degrees. i live in a small apartment in long island, and have no where cool to move the tank to, but i've noticed a significant decrease in the snake's activity since removing the heat. before i unplugged it he was really being very active in his cage, which was worrying me that he was burning up any fat he might be storing for winter.

should i continue to offer f/t's on his normal feeding schedule? which is around every 4-6 days

Prompting discussions like this is always good and it's a great way for all of us to learn more about our hobby.. But, some people here think because they do things a certain way that it's the ONLY way it should be done and they forget that there are others here with large collections and 20 years of herp keeping/breeding experience as well.

I don't feed when my animals are off heat.. But, I get my animals down to 55/60 degrees. I know that’s tough to do while living in an apartment. What temp is your snake down to right now?

~ Mike Russo

That is one ugly A$$ greyband. You outta freeze that thing before it infects others.

Ill do it right now.. Sorry to kill your day with that photo!

~ Mike Russo