Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Do anyone have a pic of small hypo burmese? This are het for leucistic right? How would I know if its true hypo or not?

There is another thread about this down the page a little. Here are some pics of our hypo het leucistic.

-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Randy, that's a ridiculously good looking snake. I hope you can help me understand a little better about this, though.

Generally speaking, leucism and hypomelanism don't have anything to do with one another genetically, as far as I understand. For example, Texas Rat Snakes that are het for leucistic aren't hypo. But Hypo Corn Snakes aren't het for leucistic.

As far as hypo snakes go, I've seen examples that were seriously light, perhaps verging on amelanistic, and examples that were lighter than the norm, but certainly not screamers. As I understand it, hypomelanism is simply an animal who exhibits decreased melanine, giving it a lighter appearance.

Now your snake is at the top of the spectrum when it comes to lighter, and more attractive coloration. And since it looks to be young, it will most certainly get better looking as it grows. (yes, I'm jealous ) And your snake is heterozygous for leucism. (yup, jealous again) But because your animal shows visible genetic markers for the leucistic genes, I don't think it precludes Burms that aren't het for leucistic from being light colored enough to be considered hypomelanistic. Two snakes obviously come to my mind. lol

There are two strains of amelanism in Retics that aren't compatible. That would lead one to beleive that two strains of hypomelanism in Burms is possible. One strain may be purely for reduced melanine, while the other, more pronounced hypo is also a genetic marker for leucism.

I know my photographic skills didn't impress anyone in the last 'hypo' post, but the hatchlings I have are substantially lighter than any other normal burms I've seen, and they seem to be lightening with each shed. The purpose of this post wasn't to make myself feel better, but I genuinely believe everything I've said.

VinnyButch

earlier today before parts of this thread were removed. To summarize, it was my opinion that Vinny's hypo burmese that he posted photos of about a week ago was actually a hybrid. The dark stripe on top of the head not reaching the end of the snout, the classical P. m. molurus mid-body dorsal blotches, and the characteristic yellow background color all on the same snake are highly indicative of a bivittatus X molurus hybrid. And to clarify further, I also believe that the P. m. molurus parent was of Sri Lanka origin.

To answer your other question, in Sri Lanka molurus, the 6th supralabial scale on the upper lip is in direct contact with the orbit of the eye. This can be the 6th or 7th supralabial scale with Indian pythons. In the burmese python, supralabial scales are always separated from the orbit of the eye by a row of small subocular scales. What I do not know is this scale configuration with one of these hybrids, as I have never had the chance to examine one. I would be really interested in a close-up photo of the eye area of this python.

Kelly

I think Hillbilly asked the question about the scale count. He also wants to know if the scale count in a hybrid would typically be like the Indian, like the Burmese or would it be random. In other words, would one dominate over the other?
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

After the thread was removed, I couldn't remember who it was from. See my previous reply to Randy. As I stated, I have never had the chance to examine one of these hybrids, so I am not certain as to the supralabial or subocular scale pattern on one of them. I would really like to see a close-up photo of the eye area on one of these hybrids if anyone has the opportunity.

Kelly

Kelly,
Yours was one of the more plausible thoughts on my hypos. I took photos upon reading your post. Both snakes have the Burmese scales, as hopefully can be seen in the photos. The color might be off a bit because I tinkered with the contrast so that the scales might show up a little better.
A few years ago I bought a pair of 'Indian Pythons' that I later had doubts about. I was lucky enough to talk to Tracy Barker about them and she told me the same thing you said about the scales, but she said that in hybrids, one eye would have a Burm-type scale, and the other would have the Indian-type. Sure enough, the pair I had at the time had both Indian and Burm scalation, proving them to by hybrids.
These two have only Burmese scalation. Again, I hope my pictures show what you're looking for.

I don't know how to post more than one pic at a time, sorry.
Here's the left side.

Here's one of the burms, with a normally colored one for comparison

Wow, I stink at this stuff....sorry again

show the area in question. They definitely show the subocular scalation of a burmese. Even so, I would still be of the opinion that this is a Sri Lanka X burmese hybrid based on my previous observations, and the fact that these traits are showing on such a young python. I can see where some of them may show the different scale configuration on each side of the head that Tracy spoke of, but I don't know that every Sri X burmese intergrade would show that exact same scale pattern. Subspecific intergrades tend to show variable scalation differences between individuals, and on some occasions, even between siblings. I could be wrong, but that is my thought on this particular python. Thanks again for the good photos,

Kelly

On a slightly different note, I have to say I haven't been a big forum poster because most disagreements quickly degenerate into nasty pissing contests. Not my cup of tea.
However, I love corresponding with people who are considerate, and polite while disagreeing. I think so much knowledge can be shared this way. I just want to thank everyone who's participated in these hypo discussions. I've learned a bunch, and gotten lots of different views.

VinnyButch

Can I get permission from Randy & Vinny to use your photos to create a comparison photo, compared to a few other snakes?

Kelly, if you or anyone else has a personal photo of a P. molurus molurus that I can use in the comparison photo I'd like to create, please post it or send it to me with permission to use it in a comparison photo, only.

This is just for the sake of this discussion only. There are a few things I'd like to throw out there for those of you discussing this and idea I have in mind is very important in order for me to get everyone to see what my question is.

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Sure, not a problem at all.

You can use our pictures too... just as long as you don't ask me to send it to you. Hahahaha. I can't belive all my pictures are gone!!! If you need a copy, let me know, it is saved on photobucket.

Later gator.

Michelle
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

i agree completly these appear to be sri x burm hybrids. After seeing the true hypos in person there is no comparison. Washed out sides the copper eyes make them stand out so much. Their eye color is just mind blowing and the way they glow, wild looking snakes.

My question about this, from what i understand sri lankas require permits to transport across state lines. If these are in fact hybrids do they require the same permit?

Hybrid Burm X Indians do not require permits.

The 'true' hypos you've seen are also het for leucistic, correct?
Since hypomelanism is simply a word used to describe animals that have less than normal amounts of melanine, hence are lighter in color, don't you think that the leucistic genes may be partly responsible for the extreme visual differences between wild type Burms and the 'true' hypos you've seen?

It would follow that burms with reduced melanine but no leucistic genetics would simply look lighter, don't you think?

Michael Cole produced the first hypo het leucistic burms, I believe. Obviously they look substantially different (read:better looking) than the animals I've posted pictures of. That being said, I don't think the word hypo belongs exclusively to that line of Burmese. It's a description, not a brand name.

If everyone in the world had the same skin color as Stevie Wonder, then Britney Spears would be considered hypomelanistic, right? But so would Eva Longoria, even though she isn't as fair skinned as Britney. And both hypo descriptions would be correct since they are both obviously lighter than the norm.

Sorry to be so annoying about this.

Vinny

Yours may fall under the true definition of hypo. However in the reptile world calling something a hypo implies it is also a genetic reproducable trait. While the offspring of hybrids may be lighter in color it isnt in the same sense a true genetic reproducable morph. They should be advertised for what they are "hypo looking hybrids". Failing to attach the "hybrid" label to hybrids is simply missrepresentation. When someone purchases a true "hypo" or pair they raise and breed them they expect a certain outcome. When someone labels a hybrid as a hypo and sells it the expected outcome will not be achived in anyway shape or form.

IMO its no differant then taking a "normal" animal that is not known to be from a line involving any type or morph and calling it a poss het. Granted under the definition of possible het any animal in the world could be labeled that. I cou ld say I am possible het for red hair and blue eyes however I havnt been proven yet, none of my kids have either. If I kept having kids could I produce one with these traits, possibly.

I guess my point is if you buy a poss het albino ball, its implied that its from an albino line. If after paying a higher price for the poss het you were to learn it was infact a farmed imported baby youd be pretty upset. No differance to someone who learns their "hypo" is infact a hybrid.

I agree.

In this particular instance, hypo has become synonymous with het for leucistic in burmese pythons. While these snakes are visually different from most burms and can be described as hypomelanistic, calling it a hypo implies that it is also het leucistic. Now, if in fact these snakes are hybrids, it's even a further cause for concern.

My wife is a red head with blue eyes and our son is red head with blue eyes. I have brown hair and blue eyes, so I guess that makes me het red.Haha

Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

You are exactly correct about all of that. As a matter of fact, I myself am hoping to be het for rich and handsome. So far though, I'm totally unproven.
I guess I'll have to wait a while to see how their offspring turn out.

Vinny

A side order of humor:

"If everyone in the world had the same skin color as Stevie Wonder, then Britney Spears would be considered hypomelanistic, right?"

Even Stevie Wonder can see that Britney Spears is a hype-ho, and not a "true" hypo.

Sorry! Just couldn't resist. By the way, my lil' comment has absolutely no reflection or bearing on the original topic.

Smile awhile!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

np

Ha! Ha! You know,.... it just now donned on me (days later) what you said. You've got to forgive me, I'm a hillbilly.

Let me try to clarify what I had in mind when I wrote that comment. I don't think it's the same as the way you took it, which I NOW can clearly see why you took it that way. Ha! Ha!

When thinking about Brittney Spears being a hypo, the first thing that popped into my mind was that she is not a natural blonde. THAT was what I meant by she's not a "true" hypo ("true" blonde).

See what happens when a hillbilly tries to act intelligent and be humorous? It can get ugly. Hahaha!!!

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

i got what you were saying i was pocking fun at your sig LOL

I placed Randy's and Vinny's snakes side-by-side in the photo below. In the bottom/left of the photo I also placed one of my '07 normal Burmese that I believe is het for albino & labyrinth (it's technically 66% het).

I used Photoshop to adjust the "Curves" on Vinny's snake just a little, lightening it up just a tad in order to get the background bleedthrough out of the photo. I imagine that the colors are pretty close to real life (are they Vinny?).

I'm basically a genetic idgit (idiot) so I can't stand (or sit) here and claim one thing or another as far as "hypo" goes.

Vinny, you've been a good sport in these discussions. I know it's hard not to take things personal, after all, it's your personal snake. It appears that you want to find out the truth. I wish I knew.

As they say here in my neck of the woods, "I ain't got a dawg in the hunt." No ulterior motive or sides to choose.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Randy's is a hypo - het leucistic Burmese Python. (Top/left pic)

Vinny's snake (top/right pic) appears to have a significant amount more black borders than Randy's. However, it appears that it does have some less black than my normal Burmese (bottom/let pic).

Take a good, long, look at all three snakes. What stands out the most? To me, it's the pattern of Vinny's snake. Randy's snake's pattern and my snake's pattern closely resemble each other. Even though mine is technically 66% het albino/labyrinth, is it still considered a normal Burmese Python?

The pattern difference throws a wrench in the works for me. I'm having trouble getting past it. Maybe I'm just not clear on the what the debate's all about.

Could Vinny's snake be a hypo? I suppose so. At the moment, I'm not going to say it's not. Is it a hypo Burmese? I wouldn't call it that. To me, the pattern rules out a pure P. molurus bivittatus. Even though the scale count may be the same as a P.m.b I don't think the pattern agrees with it.

I think "jr88" made a good point about how true-identifying names get left off of morphs, for one reason or another. There are so many "normal" Burmese Pythons with gobs of other morph genes in them to where there's probably not a true normal bred in captivity these days. People are hideously polluting the gene pool. Some for personal gain and some out of carelessness.

Vinny, regardless of what exactly your snake is, I do know that it is s beautiful one.

Ya'll take care!
Mike
(HH)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Might help if I posted the dang photo, 'eh? Gee whiz............

-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Kelly, can you post a pic of a Sri Lankan? If I'm correct, Ski Lankan and Indians have the faded "arrowhead" on top of the head. If you look at my hypo and Mike's het you can see that the "arrowhead" goes completely to the tip of the nose. On Vinny's snake it is faded before it gets to the nose. I beleive this is another indication of a hybrid.
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Nice job with the pics, Mike.

With all the posts I've read on this and other forums, I guess there's really nothing else for me to do but watch them grow, see how they turn out as adults and hopefully breed them and watch something cool squirm out of an egg.

Even then, the question of hybridization won't be answered. I honestly don't see myself spending the money for DNA analysis. If they throw really nice offspring, I'd have no trouble telling potential buyers that the issue has been raised to no definite answer.

If nobody minds, I'll take up space by posting pictures as they grow. I definitely wouldn't mind talking about this stuff again in if few months or so.

Vinny

Here a few photos showing some of the traits I am seeing in Vinny’s Burmese. As I related in my previous post, there are a few characteristics of Sri Lanka molurus that I am seeing expressed in this python. The first is the dark line on the upper side of the head that extends to the end of the nose. In young burmese this extends completely to the end of the nose. In young P. m. molurus, this line and arrowhead marking runs approximately three-fourths of the distance to the end of the nose, and recedes as the python ages to about half in Indians, and completely back in some Sri Lanka specimens. This young python shows about a three-quarter stripe.

The other characteristic I see is in the pattern of the blotches on the dorsal surface. Several of them are showing the classic “H” pattern that is seen in almost all Sri Lanka specimens, and only extremely rarely in Indian molurus. This is never seen in the pattern of any burmese python. The other pattern characteristic common to Sri Lanka specimens that is showing slightly in Vinny’s python is that the anterior edges of some of the blotches show the lack of a dark edge outline, while the posterior dark edge of the same blotch is present. Virtually all burmese show a very strong dark outline around the entire edge of the brown blotch.

While the subocular scales are present in this python, if I remember correctly, some hybrid molurus do have these subocular scales present, and some show the supralabial in contact with the eye. I have posted some photos of my Sri Lanka specimens below, both adults and a young. These show some of the common pattern characteristics of molurus of Sri Lanka origin. Additionally, check out the Sri Lanka molurus photos on this site:

http://www.reptiworld.it/Galleria%20Fotografica/Serpenti/Pitoni/Python%20molurus%20pimbura/index.htm

Some of the photos show similarities to Vinny’s python as well. Another thing you will notice is the extreme pattern variations found within Sri Lanka specimens. I believe that they are one of the most variable subspecies with regards to pattern and color than any other python in the world.

Like I said before, these are strictly my opinions on this python and I could be wrong. However, some of the similarities with Sri Lanka python characteristics are pretty strong.
Great discussion on this one. Thanks,

Kelly

Nice pics Kelly, I think they really show the difference between the Ski Lankans and Burmese. By the way, those are some nice looking snakes too.
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Kelly,
I also want to thank you for the photos and detailed information.

A big thanks for everyone that participated in this discussion. It's one of the best discussions I've seen in awhile. I found it to be informative and I think everyone did a good job of maintaining composure.

Thank you, all!
Have a good one!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

That is a beautiful Colored Burmese.I just thought I woud come here to say that I thought as there are obviously different types pf hypo in many species of snake( Platty mojave , butter, Vanilla , Fire , ember, flame hypo) .. And More in balls alone would it not be prudent to name each individual line of "Hypo " as a means to identify its lineage. IE. (Hypo het lucy)( Phantom Hypo)( Cinnamon Hypo) or whatever each lines forefathers would like to name it. Perhaps this would help with the clarification and in marketing there would be a bit less confusion between a hybrid 200-250 ea or cinnamon or whatever hypo at 1000 pr and the Hypo Het Lucy. from a proven leucistic line at 15000.00 pr .
just my .02 cents.
P.S. The two lines we are responsible for bringing to market are the hypo het lucy.. and the (phantom hypo). Look out The Dwarf Hypo is SOOOOOOO cool... keep your eyes peeled...
-----
Michael Cole
Ballroom Pythons South
863-439-3015
WWW.BallroomPythonsSouth.com

Michael,

Good ideas about different names for different strains. Just the same, don't be such a tease!!!
What do you have cooking??

Vin Buccigrossi

Here is a shot of one of our "HYPO" burms. This is definitely one of my top favorite python morphs.

-----
Spencer
esglobalherp@gmail.com