Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As I sit and wonder why you folks have these problems(the ones that do) I have to ask, what the heck are you doing. The problem is, I have no idea what your doing.

You say, you offer heat and they do not respond. The question becomes, what is heat and where and how. All this is important.

With snakes, colubrids, pythons and boas, I think a suitable(minimum) heat range is, cool(55F or so) to warm(100F) Of course a little higher is fine and a little lower is fine.

In the field, snakes always pick their temps from the middle of the natural heat range. That is, Where they live always gets above and below what their needs are. That is, they know to use 100F to obtain a body temp of 84F. Or find cool temps of 55F or so, when the surface temps are well below that. They seek the places that allow them to maintain a temp they need. The above is active temps, not brumation temps.

Of course in colder areas, where there is no possibility to maintain higher temps, they then brumate. But I have to ask, why do adult snakes congrate in dens and packs and groups, if they are simply going to hibernate? Why do they choose a specific area? Is that area colder or warmer then other areas? Do these areas maintain higher temps then surrounding areas? or lower? Do these areas have anything in common? Well there is much more, but I actually have to go work with animals. Cheers

I have sked before but I didn't receivean answer.

How do you keep that range? Please let ME know because I am unaware of how to do it. I also live in south Florida. Palm beach to be more precise. I will be moving to Long Island N.Y. within 6 months for a job. I would like ideas for both places.

It's very easy to get that type of temp range in a moderatly sized herp enclosure.. Simply turn your refridgerator so it's facing your stove and stick half of a 55 gallon tank in the fridge and sit the other half on your stove and bingo there's your 100/55 degree temp range!

We all know that FR has a ton of great herp experience, but in my opinion there are holes in his theory on temps..

Hey, shoot me an email when you get to Long Island i will let you know what's going on in herp world around here.. Unless you already know af course??

~ Mike Russo

I am trying to get up there for the white plains show this month. I will shoot you an email if I end up there for it and when I'm up there for good.

Hey Charles,

gimme a holler as well if you make it up to NY/Long Island. It's nice to have new neighbors. And boy this thread was hysterical...
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Jerry Kruse

"Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees."
David Letterman

I did not read others replies to you, so they may have covered this already.

There are literally many many ways to do this. Of course some better then others. But it always boils down to your unique situation. It also boils down to your own likes and dislikes.

The best way to allow snakes a choice is through dark mass temps. That is, a concealed area where they can coil up and put either parts of there body or all of their body in a warmer heat range.

You can heat this area with lites, or heat tape, which are the two most common ways. In the old days, the use of hot water pipes was the very best and still may be. But heat pads and heat tapes work, just not as well. With lites, many snakes do not like to expose themselves to open areas. Both from fear and for reasons of dehydration.

Which leads to a very important consideration. Whenever you apply heat, you increase dehydration. This must be kept at the top of your mind. You must prevent dehydration.

The reason why I cannot give you a strait answer is, How this is done depends on YOUR cage. Of course, the larger the cage, the easier it is to have a decent heat range. The smaller the cage, of course makes in much much harder.

If you have larger type cages(in relation to snake size) you should heat 1/3 of the cage. With smaller cages, you may have to only heat one small side. Like running heat tape on the back of a sweater box.

Also if you have sweater boxes that slide in a wooden rack. Whatever you do will heat the entire cage. These setups SUCK.

Those type setups are good for one set of average conditions, and do not support the needs of the exceptions. Please consider, every individual snake is indeed an "individual", as are different species. Each has their own unique requirements. A good cage setup will allow for some ability to adjust to the individual or different species.

Again, it can be done with sweater boxes, but its much easier with larger cages.

If you posted pics of your setups, then I or others, may be able to help you out. Cheers

I just moved and I am converting a garage to a snake room.

I do not have much time so this will be brief.

First step was to insulate.

Next I installed 2 window type air conditioners. They are keeping the room between 65 and 70 F. Next summer will be the real test.

Next cage experiment will be plywood boxes 2’x2’x4’ reinforced with 2x4s and interior lined with FRP. 10” to 12’ DIRT with swinging glass doors. Lights on one end and Retes boards. One-gallon plastic tubs partially filled with dirt buried to provide underground chambers with PVC access.

The challenge will be delivering water to the dirt to maintain humidity without making mud. Check dirt discussions on the monitor forum. I will try plastic jars buried to the bottom of the cage with a small hole in the bottom of the jar. The idea is for water to trickle out slowly to the bottom of the dirt. I have no idea if this will work.

Ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Bill Cobb

Hi Bill, Sounds like your using Retes style monitor setups for snakes. You should ask Pro Exotics about this. They have had some great success(I hear)

Of course, the key is soil type. A draining non clay soil is best. With snakes is far far far far far far far easier then with monitors(monitors are very critical). With snakes a good mix is sand and coconut hust stuff, you know what comes in blocks. Of course there are many many soils and mixes that will work with snakes.

What is funny is, Retes boards were coined for monitors, but I used them with snakes first. So yes, they can be used well. high stacks are best for saxicolis(rock and tree type species) such as pyros, zonatas, lyresnakes, etc. Retes boards partly buried in the ground are good for many more species.

The reality is, the more creative you are, the more fun YOUR going to have. So do not get stuck with the, i tried it and it didn't work mentality. You have to keep trying until the snake/s understand the options.

The key to temp choices is room temps, a cool base room temp makes this very easy. Of course, by midsummer, I do not worry about a wide choice. As normally in nature, midsummer is a time of food gathering and heavy digestion and growth.

Anyhoot, have fun and enjoy the ride. Cheers

"What is funny is, Retes boards were coined for monitors, but I used them with snakes first. So yes, they can be used well. high stacks are best for saxicolis(rock and tree type species) such as pyros, zonatas, lyresnakes, etc. Retes boards partly buried in the ground are good for many more species."

Frank,

could you describe in a bit more detail about the stacks? And if this can be done in the typical tubs that are used (i.e.: 26x17x6)??
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Jerry Kruse

"Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees."
David Letterman

Hi Jerry,

I have been using a Retes style board in my tubs for a long time. It is 1/4" plywood with 1 1/2" runners on the two long sides. I use these with Aspen. The boards are about 2' shorter on three sides than the bottom of the tub. The fourth side goes over the heat tape. I put the water dish on top of the board at the cool end. The critters burrow into the aspen under the board. I have flexwatt on one end of the tubs. This does provide a small thermal gradient, and I stopped burning holes in the tubs to help hold humidity.

It is my understanding that the Retes stacks are design to work with a light bulb shining on the top of a stack of several boards to provide a vertical thermal gradient.

Hope this helps. I do not mean to reply for FR. This is only my experience and understanding at this point in the time/space continuum.

Bill Cobb

when you, or Frank (helloooo), states using "stacks", are these boards designed the same way just in smaller form placed on top one another to form, if you will, a "rack-like system" that simply fades back on one side (i.e.: like the side of a pyramid)? Interesting, and I'd like to hear more from Frank as well as I might consider trying this.

Although, I do use tubs that are the standard 6-inches tall I'm wondering if this would not be high enough for the desired effect?

Also, how can I accomodate increased humidity if utilizing such a method of "Retes stacks" w/o compromising fresh-air flow? I'm thinking outside of the box with possibly a low tupperware-like container with lightly-dampened sphagnum wedged into a couple of these "slots" in the stacks? Yes? No? Again, keeping in mind z's as well here. Thanks...
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Jerry Kruse

"Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees."
David Letterman

Stacks can be used in a lot of different ways, and for different uses.

I do not stack them strait up, that defeats the purpose. You want to create tight places for snakes to coil in. You want to create temp choices, you want to create humidity choices. Most of all, you want to allow a secure place the snake can feel safe in.

Of course the taller your cage, the more you can support. The lower your cage, restricts that, but does not eliminate all the benefits. Even a couple of boards gives security, which is very very important and why many small snakes are picky.

In nature, snakes stay 99% of their life in secure places, that is, their body is touching all but a very small area. They pick these places for very good reasons. I think we should not ignore that.

As mentioned, snakes pick temps in various ways, most people(keepers) use horizontal choices. But in nature, they also use vertical choices, in fact, its just as important. That is, they go up and down to pick conditions, then back and forth. So yes, you can support choices in short cages and in tall cages. Of course, with taller cages you can do both. This is really not an all or nothing type of thing. Its a do as much as we can in our conditions. Also, try to think about this before we decide on those conditions.

For instance, you would not keep a vine snake in a sweater box, or have no need to keep a cal king in a six foot tall cage. They both do the same, just behaviorally differently. Cheers

I think the prime advantage of a tall cage is that it allows the use of radiant heat instead of belly heat. Don't get me wrong belly heat is great but they love to get there backs against something warm too.

My ideal system used to be overhead spot lights shining down on something with some thermal mass (like a large rock). When the timer turns on the light the rock would inititally absorb the light energy before giving it off as conductive heat which it continued to do well after the timers turned the lights off. This was done in 24"W X 24"D X 15"H cages.

I've taken to putting shoe boxes inside my sweater boxes and these serve a dual purpose. #1 they provide an additional hide and a contained place of higher humidity so that I don't get condencation on the front of the larger enclosure and #2 it allows them to get between the shoe box lid and the bottom of the next shelf which is warm from the heat tape running through it. They spend a lot of time there between feedings.
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Darwin Rocks!

In nature, snakes stay 99% of their life in secure places, that is, their body is touching all but a very small area

Undoubtedly they spend a large percentage of their time in hides, but I don't know about 99% of their life.

Maybe Contia tenuis and similar species.

Why would we have the pattern and color variation we have amongst subspecies if there was not natural selection working in different areas to alter their appearance?

I think it is fair to say snakes spend 99% of their life in the vicinity of secure places they can get to easily when they think a predator has spotted them.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

This one is simple, you live in an area with kings, you walk around, how often do you see them out and then compare that to how many are there.

Again simply put, those that are familiar with kings, know there are times they move under AC, and they know the conditions that allow that. Consider, AC in undercover. Then there are a few days, nights a year that kings will move on the surface. These moving times are very rare.

In cal there are people that set out AC and harvest the snakes. They understand there are hundreds upon hundreds of individuals, yet you rarely see them out.

Use common sense. Take a grassy field in SoCal, then estimate how many are out there, Our own mister Hubbs as done a very good job at that. Then again, walk your butt around that field and see how many you find out. So yes, 99% is close, so if its 90% or 99.99%, As a percentage, they spend the vast majority of their lifes underground.

To make it very clear, their life is underground or hidden. Once you understand that, then you understand that pattern and color selection does not have to be based on the surface. I mean really, a Glaring black and white snake is not crytic. Not on a desert brown background. In those areas, the surface is neither black or white.

As I have mentioned many times before, to tell how much time a snake spends on the surface, all you have to do is look at one thing. That is, the type of scales it has. Snakes that spend time out, HAVE THICK SCALES, the more fossorial snakes, have smooth thin scales. Thicker scales, are to prevent dehydration, in such species as, rattlesnakes, bullsnakes(pits) water and gardersnakes, etc. Smooth scales are on species that spend more time in concealed places. Kings fall into this area.

Even with thick scales, those species still protect themselves from dehydration. They too spend the vast majority of their lifes in seclusion. The first order of the day for all snakes is to prevent dehydration.

But yes, snakes do have to move on the suface to move from one area to another. At that time they expose themselves to both dehydration and predators. Most snake species even do this HIDDEN. But some species have some special gifts, like the ability to defend themselves(rattlesnakes) or speed away, the gift of speed(whipsnakes, racers, coachwhips, etc)

One of the many fallacies we have broken is that of the RARE snake. In the old days, some species were considered rare, other species common. To go back to the top, common species are those that expose themselves to the surface, rare species are those that do not. The actual numbers are about the same. Or in many cases the rare species highly outnumber the common species.

In the west, along waterways, garders are a common species, Yet mountain kings are consider rare by many. In actual numbers, garders are restricted to waterways(rare in the west) and mountain kings are spread out over the vast majority of the land mass.(mountain ranges) By actual number, mountain kings far outnumber garders. So which one is rare.

Again, even these common diurnal snakes spend over 75% of their lives underground or in seclusion.

You may want to actuall do some research on this. Its fun and educational. Cheers

In cal there are people that set out AC and harvest the snakes. They understand there are hundreds upon hundreds of individuals, yet you rarely see them out.

We rarely see them out because they tend to move in the morning and the evening. Night driving is a very effective way of finding many species, including kings. Night driving does not involve flipping cover.

They also often like to warm themselves on warm rocks or pavement even when warm cover exists. When approached they often remain completely still, but if you make a sudden move they dart towards cover.

I do agree they spend a fair amount of time under cover, but I also believe they spend a fair amount of time on the prowl. The conditions have to be right for them to be out and about, but when the conditions are right - they can spend a significant amount of time out and about. Hence the road carnage you find after a good rain.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

No offense but its all about "experience". In your case, you go by yours. The problem is, others have different experiences. In this case, those with experience known how to find 50 kings off the road, for everyone you find on the road. Again, without that type experience, you cannot make any kind of judgement.

My first experience with this was many years(decades) ago. I thought I was a very good(avid) field collector. I could find about anything. Then I had the experience of meeting "commerical" collectors. My first experience went like this. Oh man, I found ten of these rare snakes today, then the collector said, we do not go out unless we gather 200 in a day. I fell on my butt. I did not call them liars, I simply studied what they were doing. Then I found that snakes live in HUGE colonies.

Knowing that, I then used those numbers as a guide. I would look at a species and keep looking until I could find those type of numbers.

I included finding many aspects of normal populations. Like finding all age groups, and finding nesting, etc. You see, without seeing what makes a population, you really have no idea of what that population is. All populations have eggs/newborn, neonates, young adults, adults, old adults.

again, nothing against you, but until you see the whole picture, we SHOULD not agree on much. If you want to make judgements, then you should go find nests, groups, babies, etc. Because its there that the truth is. Finding them crossing the road has very little to do with them. Cheers

I don't object to them spending a majority of time under cover.
I just don't think it is 99% of their time.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

As I explained, you have not explored what Cal king populations actually do, how they function, where there at. So how would you know? You base your thoughts on a few snakes crossing roads. My advice is, if you want a better view, then do some actual research, find what the whole population is doing, then base your next guess on that. Cheers

We find snakes under cover because they are easy to find under cover. It is more difficult to find them when they are on the prowl - because they typically are not in exposed areas when they are on the prowl.

I often wonder how often I have walked right past gophers and kings in the field and not even known it. I bet quite often. When they sun themselves on the road or cross the road, they are quite visible. They are not so visible in the grass.

My first gopher snake, I was flipping cover looking for lizards and felt something moving under my shoe. It was a 4 foot gopher that I did not see because it was in dead grass.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

> We find snakes under cover because they are easy to find under cover. It is more difficult to find them when they are on the prowl - because they typically are not in exposed areas when they are on the prowl.

So, you're saying that... even when they're on the prowl they are "under cover"?

So if they brumate under cover, sleep under cover, and move around under cover... I think you just defeated your own point.

FR didn't say they spend 99% of their lives in a hole in the ground. He said they spend 99% of their lives in "secure places".

Perfect, thanks

"So yes, 99% is close, so if its 90% or 99.99%, As a percentage, they spend the vast majority of their lifes UNDERGROUND."

He did not prove your point.
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Darwin Rocks!

This is what you said -

"In nature, snakes stay 99% of their life in secure places, that is, their body is touching all but a very small area."

When they are following the scent of their prey, I don't think that is the case.

When I collected a valley garter, it went absolutely crazy when I put it in a tank which had housed a king.

I had a none feeding corn that started feeding immediately when I moved its tub so that it was no longer next to a king in the rack.

I think a lot of prey know to stay away from where the kings sit, so the kings need to go looking for them to get their meal, and that requires time away from their secure places.

You yourself noted that you can tell when the snakes have left the rodent burrows when the rodents return.

Unless they only spend 1% of their time hunting, they are out more than that. When they cross a road in their prowling, they are easy to spot. But I bet for every one we see crossing a road, they are numerous we never saw.

We know kings eat, when we find them under their cover, they often have evidence of a recent meal in the form of a lump. But we don't come across them in the act of eating that often. I think boards/tin etc. make excellent places to digest their meals, and when we find them under such boards, I bet most of the time they have fairly recently fed (even if lump not visible).

For every time we find them post meal, they had to have spent time hunting. We don't find them hunting that often, that doesn't mean they don't hunt - it just means they are harder to find on the hunt.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

you watch iCarly?!?!???
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Jerry Kruse

"Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees."
David Letterman

Only when visiting my little brothers.
Then I do because they do.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

SSSsssuurrreee!!!

~ Mike Russo

I'm going to give it a try. Given my limited space I can not do anything about radiant heat, but I will construct some boards over the brumation period this winter and use them going forward. I'll try a small humid box constructed of a tupperware or sorts and at least two or three high with a 1-inch spacing -- kind of interesting how this may somehow simulate vertical "crevices", if you will.
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Jerry Kruse

"Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees."
David Letterman

"As I sit and wonder why you folks have these problems(the ones that do) I have to ask, what the heck are you doing. The problem is, I have no idea what your doing."

You crack me up...

~ Mike Russo

" The problem is, I have no idea what your doing."

Yes, that is a problem, and yes, you are correct.
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Genesis 1:1

I have often wondered why snakes choose to hibernate where they do. When studying far northern populations of eastern racers in Vermont I was amazed at the distances the snakes would travel (over 1.5 mi) between their summer feeding areas and the SINGLE den site that the ENTIRE population used to overwinter. They did this despite numerous similar looking areas along the way. Clearly something good about that spot.

Anyway...

Like the poster above I struggle to get a temp gradient that big. In the winter its not such an issue because by opening the window I can let the snake room get pretty cool and then crank the heat on the cages. (some snakes still don't eat despite a gradient just like the one you mentioned) But in the summer unless I am going to air condion my house down to 55 degrees (which I am obviously not going to do) my snakes are stuck at room temp.

I am curious... What are the ambient temps in your herp rooms/buildings?

Cheers

OK, forget about what we're doing. How do you achieve such drastic temp gradients in Tucson, AZ?? I live in PHX and would love to know how to keep my snakes under 80 degrees in the summer - without incurring a $700 electric bill, thank you.
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Diego

SWCHR

The following are my opinions based on 40 years of doing this, both field observations and captive husbandry, and lots of reading, including FR posts.

Those of you that have spent time in the field and have been successful in finding kingsnakes will know what I mean when I refer to that perfect peace of cover. I am talking about that piece of plywood, tin, rock, etc. that is so perfectly positioned that you just know something is under it. I think most of you will agree that kingsnakes spend a significant amount of their time under cover like this. Consider what this cover provides. It provides security from predators. It provides complete darkness, which I believe is important to kingsnakes. It is humid, but not wet. It provides a heat gradient. Depending on circumstances, the gradient can provide the 55 to 100 F that FR mentioned. The snake is able to move to and utilize high temperatures in perfect conditions. I think this is what FR calls “usable heat” as compared to a snake room with air temps at 80 F or -. Under the perfect cover is usually a rodent borrow, rock crack, etc. that provides access deeper into the ground to lower temperatures, humidity, etc. The volume of dirt and rock provides the stability of thermal mass and humidity. Kingsnakes can find food and mates without leaving cover like this. These are not all of the conditions provided, but hopefully you get the idea. Next time you flip some junk, take a minute to observe these conditions, especially when you find a snake.

Now the kingsnake is snatched out of this perfect set off conditions, and put into a plastic box with a water bowl and a layer of aspen. Compare and contrast the conditions! The snake goes from all of the above to dry, dry, dry, with little or no thermal gradient, etc. The snake suffers from dehydration, suppressed immune systems, etc.

For the past couple of years, I have been trying a variety of things to move toward the perfect cover example. I have tried to provide “usable heat” in the form of a hot spot under cover (Retes boards), providing a humid hide (I used 1 gallon tubs filled with moist dirt), reducing airflow, and using DIRT! I lowered the temperature of my snake room to about 70 F using window Air Conditioners. Yes, I paid the extra power bill to do this. This last winter, I kept the heat on my Hondurans and fed them all winter. I started keeping them in pairs. This year, I hatched triple the number of babies from the year before with the same animals. One female triple clutched. I had no problems with respiratory infections, shedding, egg binding, regurgitation, etc. when I had all these problems before I started making these changes.

I know most of you are not going to use dirt. It is heavy. It destroys cages. It gets everywhere. But dirt is where kingsnakes live in the wild!

Yes, I know you can have success with tubs, aspen, etc. Personally, I want more success with fewer problems. I am in the process of replacing my tubs and rack systems with large cages that can accommodate deep dirt. I want glass fronts so I can see what is going on. I am tired of snake factory rack systems. I want to enjoy my animals more. To many people think that rack and tub systems is the way it is done, and refuse to even think about anything else. Again, tubs work with some success. I want more.

Bill Cobb

Good post Bill. Well supported opinions and examples. No I personnally wouldn't use dirt but I have used other substrates with greast success. Composted hardwood leaves worked great as it would hold moisture without molding. I also had good success using a 50/50 mixture of bed-a-best (I think its ground coconut shell) and playsand. Again this held moisture and did not mold. Both have the added advantage of not "destroying the cage and the compost is light weight.
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Darwin Rocks!

(from Cadyshack..)
The coconut husk stuff that comes in compressed bricks is much lighter in weight and works fantastic for kings. Probably best mixed with some sand. I tried that with rosies, and it worked nicely. I need to keep the cage bedding from being too heavy, so for the kings I put in very little sand.

In any case, just a suggestion for a less dense "dirt".

Also, I have experimented with all types of heating. The biggest challenge is that heat pads and lights dehydrate as FR mentioned. With heat pads, I am adding water to the soil quite often. FR is also correct that the best heating method for kings and milks is hot water through pipes. That is by far the least dehydrating method, but also the hardest to deploy for caging. I tried heat cable through thin copper pipe, and it was awesome, but expensive.

I agree with you - kings love dirt. They love it, whether it is a large tub or a cage, they love it. They love being in tight hides in dirt, with a moderate humidity. Tight hides help alot with the humidity the snake sees when in the hides. Less air space means less drying. Plain old PVC pipe partially set in soil are relished by kings. Real easy to do. The 1 1/2in dia PVC works well, as does the 2in dia. Babies do great with 1in dia.

Good luck with your setups.
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Mark

mark,,,with the PVC pipe,,,do you keep both ends open or cap one end for more darkness? also, what about flat sheets of cork as a hie spot?
thanks
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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python 1.0
Eastern King 0.1
Mexican Black King
Great Basin Gopher
Hypo Brooks 1.0
White Sided Bull 1.0 (Envy)
Striped Pacific Gopher (Envy)
Axanthic Brooksi 0.1 (Mark Kenderdine)
Goini King 1.0 (Mark Kenderdine)
Northern Pine 1.0 (Nick Puder)
Arizona Mtn. King 1.0 (AAM Snakes)

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

I just leave the PVC pipe open but leave enough length so the snake can stay completely hidden in it. The longer the PVC pipe the more attractive to the snake to use it. I use about 21.5 inches of pipe for an adult milksnake (cage is 24 inches wide, that is the limiting factor for mine.)

For babies I use about 6.5 inch length of 1" PVC. They stay in that most of the time as long as the humidity in the cage is reasonable. They like to feed in there too. Place a thawed pink in the pipe, and the snake will eat it then coil up there.

It does fill with the substrate eventually, but that doesn't stop the snake from going in it.

You would be surprised at how much kingsnake can fit in a piece of pipe. They wedge themselves in so tightly at times that turning the pipe on its end will not dislodge the snake at all. It is a great way to remove the snake from the cage without needing to grab the snake.

One more clear benefit. The heat pad/cable transfers heat to the PVC. This acts as a heat mass and reasults in more even, gentle and less dry heat.
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Mark

thanks mark,,,,looks like i am off to home depot,,,,and they will be cheaper than other hides,,,,
i just bought a bunch of plastic hides and not one of tyhe snakes liked them,,,,so i went back to cardboard,,i try and do something nice for them,,and look what happens,,,
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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python 1.0
Eastern King 0.1
Mexican Black King
Great Basin Gopher
Hypo Brooks 1.0
White Sided Bull 1.0 (Envy)
Striped Pacific Gopher (Envy)
Axanthic Brooksi 0.1 (Mark Kenderdine)
Goini King 1.0 (Mark Kenderdine)
Northern Pine 1.0 (Nick Puder)
Arizona Mtn. King 1.0 (AAM Snakes)

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

Helpful post. Wish it was posted on the top for others to see.

The coconut husk stuff that comes in compressed bricks is much lighter in weight and works fantastic for kings. Probably best mixed with some sand. I tried that with rosies, and it worked nicely. I need to keep the cage bedding from being too heavy, so for the kings I put in very little sand.

Good luck with your setups.
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Mark

100 - 55 seems to be a reasonable range of temperatures. In my system I cannot provide that degree of temperature variation year round nor am I inclined to. I however do not see this a problem.

Here are the details:

The Set Up:
I have 3 racks of 8 boxes and a display cage for a total of 25 enclosures (you might count 28 in the pic but these are older pics). Each rack is individually controlled with its own proportional thermostat.

Conditions:
During the summer my ambient room temperature is 70 give or take a few degrees. There is a minor thermo cline in the room that some use fans to eliminate but I find useful in the autumn and spring. More on that later. For those who are interested the room's window has western exposure.

In shelf (under tank) heat tape is set to 95 starting about an hour after sunrise till about an hour after sun set when it automatically cranks down to about 80. Timers are generally only adjusted weekly but sometimes more frequently in spring and autumn.

I use stacked news print as a hide over about one half of the heat tape where snakes can generally get under to find surface temps of 95 or they can get in-between the layers to find something more to their liking. Surface temps throughout the rest of the enclosure run about 80-85 on the backside and 75 up front during the day. Nighttime drop is about 10 and 5 degrees respectively.

Results:
During most of the active season my animals do quite well with this regimen and growth and reproductive rates are high given my feed inputs.

Behavior Driven Cycling:
As fall comes on and daylight and the duration of higher daytime temperatures decrease, some of my animals start to eat less reliably and or outright refuse food. At this point I start looking at and judging the individual snake's behavior. If for example it is not eating but spending all its time sitting on the heat, I can move it into shelf position above the thermo cline where ambient temps are a few degrees higher. I can also often overcome reluctance to feed by providing smaller prey items more frequently. If however the animal is showing signs of avoiding heat and is constantly utilizing a hide toward the front of the cage, I judge that it is not finding temps cool enough. In this case the box is moved to a shelf below the thermo cline or even to a rack where the heat has been turned down lower.

By the time November roles around most snakes are feeding less if at all and are off heat. At this point those that have been off feed for four weeks are removed from the room and kept in a dark closet where temps are reliably maintained around 60 degrees. Over the next four weeks all of the snakes will have sufficient opportunity to clear their guts and are also put into hibernation. I have found that my corns and blotched kings do not require this cooling period but do breed more reliably when they are cycled.

On February 1, they are all brought up and I continue to judge behavior of the animals to determine how they are cared for. Some go right to the heat and begin feeding within the week. They get the warmest locations in the system. Others continue to stay off the heat and they are given the coolest spots. At this time of year the photoperiod is still pretty short but as spring comes on the amount of daylight (and applied heat) starts to increase noticeably with each passing day more and more snakes start seeking heat and accepting food and breeding ensues.

Pro:
Prime advantage of such a system is that it facilitates cleaning of the animal's enclosure and frequent and close observation of the animal's physical condition. In my opinion this system does emulates the natural temperature cycles snakes encounter in the wild though it requires monitoring and adjustment.

Cons:
They don't get to bask. All heat is via conduction and convection. If I had my choice heat would be introduced via radiation instead. Second, the space provided is limiting. A big cage does not always equate to a "happier" snake but I admit to having some issues with keeping any wild animals in any kind of cage. I realize the contradiction here and am uneasy with it but I know from personal experience that bigger cages with more "choice" for the animal do not alleviate the feeling. This is just my personal opinion but bigger cages are not always about the animal, sometimes they are about the keeper. This is getting a little preachy but those motivations can range from simply wanting to create something beautiful for personal enjoyment to salving their conscience for keeping wild animals captive.

Conclusion:
This was all elementary but I went through it to illustrate that even in a rack system you don't necessarily pick one temp for your animals and force them to deal with it. You can easily provide them a range of temps that they need for a particular season and by observing their behavior adjust conditions accordingly as you move through the seasons. You can keep their enclosure clean and make frequent observations of their condition to judge their needs. The system is not perfect but no system, other than leaving these animals in the wild, is.

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Darwin Rocks!

I live in WA state and I have only about 9 hours of daylight currently, in late December I will only have about 6-7 hours. My snakes are still eating just fine, all of them.
It is much easier to get the type of temp gradient that FR is talking about if the gradient is vertical and not horizontal. Also sandy-dirt substrate will be much cooler than the ambient temps in the room at the cool side of the cage. If you keep them on the floor then the temp gradient mentioned in the first post is quite achievable.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I used to have a HUGE very tall wide and deep cage that I kept several pairs of snakes in. It looked great and was a lot of fun. It took my girlfriend (now my wife) several months to realize that the thing even had snakes in it!

If I ever cut down such that I was just keeping a few pets I would probubly return to this method of keeping.
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Darwin Rocks!

If I'm understanding Tony, I am inclined the same way. Racks AND large cages.

After reading FRs posts I tried damp hides and giving more choices. I had serious scale problems after letting my Gaigeae have moist Sphagnum/cypress mulch hides and really regret ever doing it. On the other hand I have Pyros in pairs in Larger cages with hides, moist and dry all over the cage in a natural set up and they have never looked better! Their skin seems to glow and the white bands are brighter. After the initial change up which took about a year for them to get used to it's easy to see them out and about moving from hide to hide and they do bask under the heat shroud (Vision) and don't normally scoot away upon approach. It's kind of like having a beautiful Aquarium without the water. So far they have kept mellow attitudes and are still calm and hanlable which hasn't been my experience with putting other animals in "Natural" setups. Live and learn..........

The key is to understand the difference between humidity and moisture. Without question, moist cages can and do cause problems. But not humid cages. These type reptiles require a medium humidity, like 50% then move up or down as need. Much like temps.

There are a million simple ways to increase humidity without increasing moisture. Cheers

So is spagnum moss recommended? I think a major concern is potentially too much condensation as many may not be able to provide adequate drainage if excessive humidity builds and becomes moisture. Just thinking out loud......
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Jerry Kruse

"Fall is my favorite season in Los Angeles, watching the birds change color and fall from the trees."
David Letterman

I don't have a huge collection, but I do have more than 20 adult snakes which includes some boas and pythons, 7 monitors and many other lizards. I keep them more or less in phases were I am working with a few groups of animals at a time. I do use a rack system, but that is mostly for animals that are just maintaining. Then I move animals to different types of cages for different reasons. I have 5 working large cages for observation (two of which permanently house monitors), that I spend most of my time with. They are very much designed from keeping monitors with a wide range of conditions, and I am always trying to maintain a functioning ecosystem in these cages. In these cages I keep snakes in pairs or groups, and feed them a ton. This is were the fun really is, I think, because I get to see all types of different dynamics that you don't get from shoebox display, which the snakes cannot really do anything other than hide and eat. To me this type of keeping has been very rewarding, and the animals can show you what they really are.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I think the bottom line is that it is impossible to provide the kind of setup you provide in a rack system, and it is impossible for most people without a very large habitat for the snake.

Since generations upon generations of healthy snakes have been kept and bred in smaller enclosures, I think it is a matter of there is more than one way to do things.

With respect to what causes the "problems" - if someone is keeping snakes in a rack, your solution is not practical because it doesn't work in racks.

When a neonate refuses rodents but eagerly feeds upon lizards, maybe it would feed upon rodents in your setup. But the keeper isn't using your setup, so the best advice is what has worked for people with racks - IE lizard scenting, etc.

There is a genetic component to feeding behavior out of the egg. Unless natural history museums that provide large enclosures (not all do) are your only buyers, responsible breeders should take the feeding disposition of the neonates into consideration when selecting hold-back stock for future breeding.

Nature does it with natural selection, the hobbyist/commercial breeder should do it with selective breeding.

Bloodreds and Miami phase (and undoubtedly other) corn snakes use to be notoriously difficult to get started on pinks - but would readily eat lizard prey. Yet there are many lines now that feed just fine on rodents out of the egg. If I recall correctly, the same issue existed with the original Palomar / Ghost line - so it was outcrossed to result in a line that expressed the morph trait but wasn't such a picky feeder.

You are right, we should learn from nature - we can select which traits, including feeding habits, are desirable for the environment in which the snake will live. In captivity with kings, that is rarely an enclosure bigger than a 20 long (except maybe the monster Easterns) and almost never an enclosure with the temperature range you suggest.

With respect to humidity and moisture, it is difficult in small tubs if you do not have adequate drainage. The problem is that humid air will condense on the cooler parts of the setup resulting in moisture.

This is a constant battle with some of my kings - if they push the water dish over to the warm side, the tub becomes very humid, and it condenses on the cool side of the tub and becomes moisture.

32 quart tubs, it never seems to be a problem. But it has been a problem with 4qt and 12qt tubs.

I no longer give them water every day. They seem to be doing fine. This also solves the problem of the few that like to tip their water dish and/or push substrate inside it.

Another tip I've seen is to velcro a deli cup to the bottom and use a second deli cup inside it for water. That prevents it from being moved or tipped. I don't like it because of the way I clean tubs, the velcro on the bottom wouldn't last very long (I spray the inside of tub with anti-bacterial cleaner and let it sit, then fill it with hot water and let it sit, then dump it and fill it with hot water and dish soap and let it sit, rinse well and dry - all in bathtub with show hose)

Large caging gives you a lot more options than a lot of us have, but the smaller caging a lot of us use clearly can and does work as generations upon generations of healthy snakes have been raised that way.

Small enclosure husbandry may not be even marginally close to natural, but it DOES work.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

>> Of course in colder areas, where there is no possibility to maintain higher temps, they then brumate. But I have to ask, why do adult snakes congrate in dens and packs and groups, if they are simply going to hibernate? Why do they choose a specific area? Is that area colder or warmer then other areas? Do these areas maintain higher temps then surrounding areas? or lower? Do these areas have anything in common? Well there is much more, but I actually have to go work with animals. Cheers

I'll take a shot at this one...

On the first decent day for snake hunting last spring, 5-6-08, on the n.w. coastal area of Lake Huron, in northern Michigan, I headed out to see if I could find anything. I looked all morning in some of my favorite spots, flipping, walking fields, etc, and saw nothing. Finally, in the middle of the afternoon, I arrived at a ridge above some coastal wetlands. The ridge was an open area full of flat limestone rocks...

I didn't see anything at first, the air temp was only 55*F, but the rocks were starting to warm up. Finally I started seeing a bunch of snakes. Here's some of what was under the rocks that day...

I love this area, because you can find snakes here when you can't find them anywhere else. I hunted in the lowlying wetlands too and didn't see a thing. My guess is that they brumate inside the ridge and come out in spring to warm up under the rocks. I saw two milks; tons of ringnecks, not often seen in MI, and sometimes 4 or 5 under one rock; and a whole bunch of Eastern garters. This spot also has ribbon snakes and later in the year, Butler's garters, only found along the coast.

Of course the ground is somewhat moist too, because of the spring thaw.

Besides being a great spot to brumate, I'm sure the adults of each species do their mating while they're there...

Cheers...TC