Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering how cool to take my Black Milks this winter. Last year I brumated in the low 60's and while they appeared to have bred, my female never did give me any eggs last year. Though it was their first year at breeding I was wondering if it would have helped to cool them, like my other snakes, into the mid 50's. I have successfully bred corns, bull and gophers but these guys skunked me last year Hoping for a better year in 09. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

Hello,
Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you this year. How old and long are your black milks? It takes 3-4 years to get them to breeding size, mainly because gaigeae eggs are HUGE, and a female can easily become eggbound if bred too young. The female should be over four feet long, preferably closer to five. Waiting is actually the hardest part of breeding black milks... my pair has produced pretty good clutches (six in '05, eight in '06, only two in '07, and nine! in '08) for the past four years, without brumation. If you consider their natural habitat in the cloud forests of Costa Rica and Panama, the length of daylight and temperatures don't really change from season to season the way they do further from the equator or at lower elevations, so there's really no need to force those conditions on them in captivity. I've found that sometime in April or May, my male black milk will go off feed and become extremely restless, very different from his typical behavior. This usually happens about the same time the female is going into shed. As soon as she sheds, I put the male into her cage, and do so as frequently as possible for the next couple of weeks. I think the small clutch size last year was due to me not continuing to put them together after the first successful copulation. How closely did you watch your black milks when you tried to get them to breed this year? Their behavior might offer a clue as to why it didn't take.

Thanks,
Nate

I don't think low 60s would be called brumating... At these temperatures your snakes are still somewhat active and it may even be stressful for them without food. This could be the reason why you didn't get good eggs - the female may have been underweight or stressed.

Here's an anual temperature chart from the heart of the Black Milksnake's range:

Like Nate mentioned, they don't have regular seasons at that altitude near the equator so there isn't really a certain time of year that is noticibly cooler.

But, considering how most people sucessfully brumate other neotropical milksnakes I would think that this snake is the perfect candidate for a standard North American cooling period since its well adapted to handle low temperatures.

Its only a matter of preference whether you brumate or not really, both are proven to work with great success. I cool my Hondurans for 3 months, not to simulate their natural temperatures but to make things easier for me and it seems to make the timing easier for breeding. After cooling them they are all ready to breed at basically the same time.

If you are going to cool them, you need to get the temps down into the mid to low 50s so that they slow down their metabolism, otherwise its probably not even worth it and you should just keep them going all year.
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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

Hey Ken,

I think Nate and Jon gave you good advice. I usually brumate mine in the mid 50's and they do fine. One year, I just put them in a spare bedroom closet and didn't feed them for a few months with temps in the low 60s and they also bred just fine. It may be that your's were too young? In any event, put them at the same temps as your other colubrids and they should breed just fine.

On another note, my female won't breed until after her second shed. So keep putting the male in with her on and off all spring and into early summer. In my experience, they are late breeders so don't think the job is done in early spring. My female got so huge last year during ovulation, I mistakenly thought she was full of eggs. Good thing I didn't stop introducing the male.

Good luck.

Dave

DNS Reptiles

I really appreciate the helpful info you three gave me. Thank you. And the temps for their native region was a nice tip Jon!

You guys helped me figure out what may have gone wrong this past season. I purposely held off breeding them until they were older due to what I've read about egg size. My pair are late 04's and currently my male and female are 1077 grams, 60in and 876 grams, 54in. respectively. I brumated last Winter in the low 60's and they both looked a bit thin in the Spring. Based on what you guys said, they probably needed 50's or not brumated at all. As for the actual pairing I followed a typical colubrid routine and warmed them up in March, feed them heavily and waited until the first post-brumation shed to introduce the pair. I noticed no breeding activity when first introduced. After they shed a second time I reintroduced and saw quite a few hook ups and the female was quite swollen at that time. As such, I figured she was full of growing eggs and stopped introducing the male. I likely missed her fertile period and mistook her ovulation for eggs.

I haven't decided if I should brumate or use the time to fatten them up, get some more size on my female but I think I will keep introducing the male later into Spring/early Summer to make sure he fertilizes her.

Thanks again!
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

Hey Ken,

Assuming you have been feeding her pretty heavy for the last 2 months, I would brumate her and then take her up a month earlier than the male and start a heavy feeding schedule for several months. That will help her put on the weight she needs to ovulate and produce eggs. Black milks can put on weight quickly with heavy feeding.

Don't overfeed your male though, he might get fat and loose interest in breeding.

Good luck.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Thanks Dave, I'll give that a try and will post results in the Spring/Summer

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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

for multiple seasons in the high 60's to low 70's with good success (I did leave the cages in a dark closet so there was extreme photoperiod manipulation). The animals didn't become noticably thin (probably would help most overweight captive animals) and I had my highest production at this time. In 2005 I had two female gaigae produce 40 eggs! (19 from one, 21 from the other).

WOW those are impressive clutch sizes! How long did you have them in the closet at that temperature for?
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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

I put them down around Nov 15th and brought them back up around Valentines Day.

Wow! Incredible clutches Phil. Thanks for the input.
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Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

I had very similar results with my '05 Gaigae pair this year. Once again thanks to all the contributor's to this thread for the experiences and advice. Hopefully next year!

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Joe