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Northern Pines

Tony D Sep 08, 2003 09:37 AM

My association with northern pines is about to come to an end. For quite some time these have been my favorite animal. Though Virginia law did not allow for me to breed and sell them, I usually had one in my collection. Last year, in order to thin down my collection during the construction of the house, I moved my only one, a male, to the Salibury zoo. This year at Daytona I picked up a pair hoping to get grandfathered before moving into NC where they are protected. After various and I might add futile "e" contacts with the state I finally contacted the US Fish and Wildlife Service in NC. I told them of my problem, requested and was given the proper "state" contact.

Unfortunately, state law does allow for grandfathering but only in instances where one has held the animals since their listing in 1991. So I missed the boat and will no longer be able to work with these animals even if captive-bred. A situation that isn't new or unique but non the less unfortunate.

Perhaps it's just a coincidence but here is the bad part. The next morning at 8am sharp, my wife gets a call asking if I have any northern pines for sale! The caller said he got my number off the internet but I no longer have a web site and to my knowledge there are no listings on the forums of my old phone number much less my current one! Add to that that I have NEVER bred or sold northern pines and I have to ask if this wasn't a potential setup? Perhaps not but given the demonstrated behavior of a few rogue officials to make a name for themselves, it isn't exactly unlikely.

Replies (6)

RichH Sep 08, 2003 10:03 AM

Tony, thats unfortunate. Should have told the caller you set them free since you could not keep them. Curious as to what their response would have been.

My wife and I were considering building a second home in NC that would probably become the main home in a few years. Something to consider for me as well.

Rich Hebron

terryp Sep 08, 2003 02:42 PM

I think a state or two has become more lenient with allowing a state protected or restricted reptile to be possessed with a permit. The contigiency is that the reptile is captive bred and not from the state you now want to possess them in. Someone mentioned to me about Alabama letting you possess a captive bred Northern Pine now. I looked it up and didn't see Northern Pines on the prohibited list anymore. I hadn't gone farther than that and would definitely need to research more.
It's unfortunate that state laws and regulations are passed and enforced as blanket laws and regulations. Rather than figure out the exceptions or deal with permit applications, these agencies push for a cover all law and no exceptions. You might check if any thing is being lobbied or in the works for the state of NC to allow captive bred Northern Pines with a permit. That's a hard stance on possessing a Northern Pine since 1991. I would think having a captive bred going back to captive parental stock before 1991 would still satisfy the original intent of NC's law on it. Did the contact you talked to quote what regulations or laws he/she was using to govern your qustion? I'd get a copy of all of it and review it. Remember, the state employee will interpret the law for you NOT to have one where I would interpret it to ALLOW me to hsve one without overriding the original intent of the law which is to protect or restrict the possession of native wild Northern Pines in North Carolina.
BTW - I wouldn't see anything unusual getting a call like you did just after talking with the North Carolina state "contact" on protected reptiles in the state with the fact I wanted to bring a protected reptile there and possess it. Thanks for the heads up.

Terry Parks

>>My association with northern pines is about to come to an end. For quite some time these have been my favorite animal. Though Virginia law did not allow for me to breed and sell them, I usually had one in my collection. Last year, in order to thin down my collection during the construction of the house, I moved my only one, a male, to the Salibury zoo. This year at Daytona I picked up a pair hoping to get grandfathered before moving into NC where they are protected. After various and I might add futile "e" contacts with the state I finally contacted the US Fish and Wildlife Service in NC. I told them of my problem, requested and was given the proper "state" contact.
>>
>>Unfortunately, state law does allow for grandfathering but only in instances where one has held the animals since their listing in 1991. So I missed the boat and will no longer be able to work with these animals even if captive-bred. A situation that isn't new or unique but non the less unfortunate.
>>
>>Perhaps it's just a coincidence but here is the bad part. The next morning at 8am sharp, my wife gets a call asking if I have any northern pines for sale! The caller said he got my number off the internet but I no longer have a web site and to my knowledge there are no listings on the forums of my old phone number much less my current one! Add to that that I have NEVER bred or sold northern pines and I have to ask if this wasn't a potential setup? Perhaps not but given the demonstrated behavior of a few rogue officials to make a name for themselves, it isn't exactly unlikely.
>>

jcherry Sep 08, 2003 04:14 PM

Sorry to hear about the problem also. It seems that the laws we all are having to live with are something only an atty. can decipher. It is a real shame that the old organization NRACC didn't work, with the help of an organization like that and some funding it MIGHT have been possible to get some of these regulations into a more workable position.

Anyway, also be aware that if you interstate transport animals in violation of a state law, the viloation then becomes a Federal violation of the lacy act. We have a local herper here in Texas that is dealing with that right now. he failed to purchase a dealers license on some of the regulated animals under the non-game regulations and then tried to export them. Serious deal.

As far as the "call" being a set up realize that when you talk to Jeff B. of Kingsnake.com he will be the first to tell you that the state and federal guys frequent these forums and pages on a regular basis. Nothing to worry about as long as we are staying within the law. I try, but it contiunes to worry me on a daily basis trying to keep up with changes and really trying to stay within the laws.

Again sorry you can't keep the northerns they are great, it sucks that I can't work with La. Pines too.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

KJUN Sep 08, 2003 04:36 PM

>>As far as the "call" being a set up realize that when you talk to Jeff B. of Kingsnake.com he will be the first to tell you that the state and federal guys frequent these forums and pages on a regular basis.

Hey, now. What are you implying about state guys????

KJ

Tony D Sep 08, 2003 04:47 PM

The real irony is that if they were federaly listed there would be a means to keep, breed and transport them much as is done for indigos. So much for states doing a better job! I guess that the real shame is that while we can't keep these animals developers can level habitat at will. Very sad indeed.

Agree with the lacy act comment. Anytime intent is not needed to be considered guilty you have one scary law.

snakeguy88 Sep 09, 2003 08:17 PM

Yeah...he lives close to my house. A shame, but something a small permit would have fixed. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

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