Reptile & Amphibian Forums

THE INDEPENDENT (Johannesburg, S Africa) 08 February 03 Snake bites two-year-old as she sleeps
<br>Sapoa): A two-year-old girl was airlifted to the Pretoria Academic hospital on Saturday after being bitten by a snake.
A spokesperson at the Philadelphia hospital in Groblersdal, Mpumalanga, said the child was brought into the trauma ward in the early hours of Saturday after being bitten on the finger by what was believed to be a member of the mamba family.
The snake had apparently slithered into her bed while she was asleep with her family at Kwarrilaagte, Denilton, which, was fortunately near the hospital.
Although she was brought in very shortly after being bitten, the child's finger was already showing advanced signs of neuro-toxic poisoning.
The treatment in such cases required extremely skilled intubation, the hospital spokesperson said.
It was decided to airlift her to Pretoria Academic hospital.
Snake bites two-year-old as she sleeps

SABC (Johannesburg, S Africa) 08 February 03 Toddler in risk of loosing hand after snakebite
A two-year old toddler's hand may have to be amputated, after a snake bit him. The specialised trauma air response unit is rushing the boy from the Philadelphia Hospital in Mpumalanga to Pretoria's Academic Hospital's trauma unit.
The toddler lives in a rural area in Mpumalanga and was bitten on his hand this morning. Amalda Swart, of the air response unit, says the child is expected to arrive at the capital's academic hospital by about one o'clock. He is being transferred, as the hospital where he was at cannot handle the full extent of his injury.
The boy will receive anti-venom treatment in Pretoria. Depending on the seriousness of the snakebite, the boy's hand may have to be amputated.
Toddler in risk of loosing hand after snakebite

The toddler was supposedly bitten on the finger, therefore, I would think that local necrosis would be limited to this particular extremity. Even though swelling has been known to spread up the arm, why would the surgical procedure, "amputation" ,of the entire hand be required to save the patient? Would it be do to the fact that a toddler was bitten, and not an adult?

Derek K.

Derek,

This is just the usual phenomenon of the media getting everything muddled.

First, what how the hell can a finger show advanced signs of neurotoxic poisoning? Did the finger have a hard time keeping its eyes open? Was it drooling? Couldn't it breathe?

In other words, do they mean that there was *necrotic* poisoning of the finger? Or that the child was suffering from neurotoxicity? One article talks of needing intubation and ventilation, the other of amputations - all a complete muddle.

Assuming that there is local tissue damage, and from the general circumstances of the bite, this sounds much more like a cobra bite than a mamba bite in any case. Spitting cobras in particular often enter houses, and a considerable percentage of their bites happen in the circumstances described here (at night, in someone's bed). AFAIK, mamba bites do not normally occur in these circumstances. In any case, the local mamba of Mpumalanga Province is the black mamba, and if that had been the culprit, then (i) there would be no major tissue damage, and (ii) the child would almost certainly be dead.

Cheers,

Wolfgang

have been any "major" tissue damage in the event that this was indeed a bite inflicted by a Mamba, Black, Green, or Pokadot, LOL !

I couldn't imagine why amputation was even considered, unless the child was bitten by another species whose venom produces a more severe necrotic effect.

Skepticism of media reporting is the norm, however, I wished to confirm my suspicions.

Wolfgang, thanks again for the confirmation/clarification.

Cheers,

Derek K.

have been any "major" tissue damage in the event that this was indeed a bite inflicted by a Mamba, Black, Green, or Pokadot, LOL !

I couldn't imagine why amputation was even considered, unless the child was bitten by another species whose venom produces a more severe necrotic effect.

Skepticism of media reporting is the norm, however, I wished to confirm my suspicions.

Wolfgang, thanks again for the confirmation/clarification.

Cheers,

Derek K.

have been any "major" tissue damage in the event that this was indeed a bite inflicted by a Mamba, Black, Green, or Pokadot, LOL !

I couldn't imagine why amputation was even considered, unless the child was bitten by another species whose venom produces a more severe necrotic effect.

Skepticism of media reporting is the norm, however, I wished to confirm my suspicions.

Wolfgang, thanks again for the confirmation/clarification.

Cheers,

Derek K.

have been any "major" tissue damage in the event that this was indeed a bite inflicted by a Mamba, Black, Green, or Pokadot, LOL !

I couldn't imagine why amputation was even considered, unless the child was bitten by another species whose venom produces a more severe necrotic effect.

Skepticism of media reporting is the norm, however, I wished to confirm my suspicions.

Wolfgang, thanks again for the confirmation/clarification.

Cheers,

Derek K.

my PC went bonkers.

Cheers,

Derek K.

The people who write these articles are just that...writers. They don't know from neurotoxin, cardiotoxin, hemotoxin or kool-aid. They interview doctors and nurses and family members and police and look for buzzwords, then just sort of throw them together.

What you have to remember in all of this is that all snake venoms are a cocktail of different kinds of toxins. Dendroaspis is, of course, predominately neurotoxin. It also contains a cardiotoxin, which raises the heart rate to circulate the venom more quickly. I would think that the amount of hemotoxin in Dendroaspis venom would be small enough to be inconsequential, but swelling may occur without necrosis because of the tissue reaction local to the bite related to trying to produce antigens. However, a dendroaspis bite would almost certainly be very quickly fatal in a toddler, especially without immediate administration of Antivenin. If you haven't positively (or nearly positively) identified the offending species, which Antivenin do you use? No doctor in his right mind is going to administer Dendroaspis Antivenin to a toddler when it isn't known if she was bitten by a Mamba or some other species. Same with any species of Cobra. In a toddler, an untreated cobra bite would likely produce a fairly rapid fatality. The symptoms of a Mamba bite are marked and dramatic and progress rapidly, including drooping eyelids, numbness of lips and extremeties, paralysis of facial muscles, disorientation, loss of vision, loss of speech ability, dramatic changes in heart rate, paralysis of the diaphram, and finally, death. This all can occur in an adult in as little as 20 to 30 minutes or as much as 2 hours. In a toddler, the timeframes would be much more compressed. Mambas (from what I know) rarely, if ever, dry-bite.

The conclusion I would draw from all of this is that she was bitten by some other species, and was not in enough respiratory distress to be immediately concerned about death. No mention was really made if she was sleeping in an elevated bed or a bed on the floor or ground. There are numerous species of small vipers and elapids whose bite is much less serious than Dendroaspis or Naja species, and will cause local swelling and necrosis. In these other snakes, the neurotoxic effects of the venom can be exaggerated in a small child.

THE INDEPENDENT (Johannesburg, S Africa) 09 February 03 Toddler bitten by snake 'improving'
(Sapa): A two-year-old girl, who was airlifted to the Pretoria Academic hospital on Saturday afternoon after being bitten by a snake, was in a satisfactory condition on Sunday, the hospital said.
The toddler was taken to the trauma ward at Philadelphia hospital near Groblersdal, Mpumalanga in the early hours of Saturday after being bitten on the finger by a snake around midnight. The snake slithered into her bed while she was sleeping in her family home at Kwarrilaagte, near Groblersdal.
"The baby's condition had improved since the time of her admission," a hospital matron, who asked not to be named, said on Sunday.
"Although the child's arm is still very swollen doctors are satisfied with her progress and don't find it necessary for her to be operated on..."
The snake was not identified but was believed to be a member of the mamba family.
Toddler bitten by snake 'improving'