Reptile & Amphibian Forums

what the largest of the pituophis is?

I believe it's Bull Snakes. Pituophis catenifer sayi

Generally the interior types grow the largest. The all time size record probably belongs to the bullsnake (central states from TX to Canada). There are some subtypes (associated with localities) that have large size reputations such as the Hwy 277 bulls from south TX. As you move west towards the Pacific Coast, size generally decreases, in all likelihood a function of active season length and food availability. I live within Sonoran gopher range and individuals approaching 8 feet are not unheard of. Typically the largest Sonoran's are found in river bottoms or ag zones where food is in great abundance all season (and we have a prolonged active season in south Arizona). There are also some tremendous Great Basins to be had from similar areas within their range. Pacific's and San Diego's trend smaller with typical high end individuals closer to 6 feet.

The other big limiting factor is longevity. Many individuals, regardless of species or subtype never reach much over 5 feet in the wild anymore due to high mortality rates associated with proximity to humans and our road network. There are still large individuals out there in places but they are not a very high percentage of any wild population. Sorry for the lengthy reply but biogeography has always been a source of intrigue for me and the Pituophis are my favorite group of snakes period.

would be Pituophis lineaticollis-at least in captivity, it has been recorded to over 9 ft. Given its montane habitat, I have some doubt that it ever attains such a length in the wild....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

thanks guys!yes the pituophis a recently captured my attention.i am actually a longtime keeper of large constrictors.the "pits"
have just seem to be a very interactive snake,and man are some of them are gorgeous.i am getting one! from what you guys said i think i am going to do a "bull."

Remember that old TV commercial for Lay's potato chips where they said "you can't eat just one"? It's kinda like that with snakes where "you can't just have one". You will find that rings true soon enough. There is so much variability and potential with the Pituophis clan that you will want additional individuals at some point. Can't fault you for starting out with a bullsnake though as they are easy keepers and grow like mad.

My current stock includes:

1.0 Kingsville red bull (courtesy of Home Grown Herps)
0.1 Sonoran gopher (AZ W/C)
1.0 Great Basin gopher (CA W/C)

well i have my green conda,and my tiger retic.and i actually started out with yellow rats,and scrub pythons,so an ornery colubrid is right up my alley!

Brad,

Where did you see or here of a 9 ft Lineaticollis? , as in 108 inches?

I have seen that lineaticollis and also have seen a 100 inch southern pine and a pic of a nothern that was 102 inches but that lineaticollis was 108 inches, as for bullsnakes the longiest one that I have evern known of was only claimed to be 96".

>>Brad,
>>
>>Where did you see or here of a 9 ft Lineaticollis? , as in 108 inches?

Hi John;

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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I thought that he was talking about the pictures of her. I think she was 7 pushing 8......no doubt still a giant. I have little doubt that these guys are heavy hitters and can probably exceed 10 feet but I am pretty sure that Tom's big female was not even quite 8 a few years ago. I guess I could be wrong.

That is what I heard that Alan is not breeding those animals he got from Tom. I guess from what I understand he has taken a stance that snakes in the pet trade are not legitamate and zoos should only be allowed to breed animals? I am getting this second hand so it may not be accurate. I guess with all the numbskull behavior that we see in the hobby it should come as no surprise when universities and the zoologic community get disgusted.

I think that Tom J was never able to breed the other proven pair of Tom's. I feel pretty lucky to have gotten mine when I did!

Yes, that is the animal I was referring to-I saw it in person last year, and though I don't know the exact measurement, I would be willing to bet it now hits close to 9 ft.

I also think, from knowing Alan casually, that the above is not an accurate representation of his opinion on private herpetoculture-I mean, Ron Tremper is one of his best friends, and certainly he occasionally appears at the local expo in San Antonio selling some of his own cb deppei and chondros!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Good 'ol tom j here..... John, I just don't try very hard Didn't even put them together last year!

>>I thought that he was talking about the pictures of her. I think she was 7 pushing 8......no doubt still a giant. I have little doubt that these guys are heavy hitters and can probably exceed 10 feet but I am pretty sure that Tom's big female was not even quite 8 a few years ago. I guess I could be wrong.

You never saw her in person then. She was clearly 8 feet and perhaps even 9. We sorta stretched her out. Plus she was longer then two laps of her four foot enclosure!

>>That is what I heard that Alan is not breeding those animals he got from Tom. I guess from what I understand he has taken a stance that snakes in the pet trade are not legitamate and zoos should only be allowed to breed animals? I am getting this second hand so it may not be accurate. I guess with all the numbskull behavior that we see in the hobby it should come as no surprise when universities and the zoologic community get disgusted.
Cannot speak for Alan, but the zoo industry as a whole has become very snobbish. I wont even sell to them. If I cannot buy the babies back, or they wont even try to breed them, then why sell to them? My livelihood relies on continued buys/sells and definitely not any one single deal. Specially when I can sell the same animal to someone like you, and I can buy all the babies back in the future.

>>I think that Tom J was never able to breed the other proven pair of Tom's. I feel pretty lucky to have gotten mine when I did!

I got the impression they were resold to John Michel? John? True? He is certainly producing them.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I'm a little lost here on what has happened to the original pair. Is there a pair in the San Antonio zoo and what has happened to the other original female (or pair)? Seems like there are a couple of "Toms" involved and I'm confused. Thanks--Scott

Scott John Reptiles

There are 2.2 founders. They were owned by Thom. Only one Thom. He sold a pair to San Antonio Zoo/Alan Kardon who inexplicably has decided to not breed them. It seems the other pair was sold and re-sold, however, I may be mistaken.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Talked to Thom today and he said that she was an honest 8 just before he sold her so I guess that I can believe 9ft. I did see that animal probably in 2004 when she laid her first clutch. I guess she grew a bunch.

So for the record there were 3.4 founders. Originally Thom had 2.2 and Tom J had the other 1.1, and I had 0.1 unrelated to that group. Alan got one of the pairs after Thom sold them and Tom J got the second pair to go with his other 1.1. Oh and I think that a friend of Alans has a young male completely unrelated to anything else.

As far as I know those are the original players

My bad. I humbly apologize. I was only mentioning the "original producing" founders, and not all of them. Of course, yours is unrelated and now producing, and Tom J had his.

>>Talked to Thom today and he said that she was an honest 8 just before he sold her so I guess that I can believe 9ft. I did see that animal probably in 2004 when she laid her first clutch. I guess she grew a bunch.
>>
>>So for the record there were 3.4 founders. Originally Thom had 2.2 and Tom J had the other 1.1, and I had 0.1 unrelated to that group. Alan got one of the pairs after Thom sold them and Tom J got the second pair to go with his other 1.1. Oh and I think that a friend of Alans has a young male completely unrelated to anything else.
>>
>>As far as I know those are the original players
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

sorry scott, i thought you knew of Tom J's animals.....Yeah, he is a police officer in Oregon or Washington.

As far as I know the genetic diversity of captive nominant lineaticollis consists of the original 3.3 group, one male from that group may or may not be related to the others but probably is a year younger related sibling, then there is an unrelated older female and a young unrelated male (not of breeding age yet).

There could be other animals out there but I doubt it. I got in touch with a retired professor last name Fox who had a group of lineaticollis 20 years ago but I lost track of him and I don't know if he was ever able to reproduce them.

I don't need to tell you that Pituophis as a group have gained some popularity in the past decade but 30 years ago most folks could care less. I spent $200 each for black pines, deppei, and jani 16 years ago. Now they are easily found for $20 to $60 for nice ones. Personally I was hooked on Pits one afternoon in late summer of 1969 when my uncle wrangled a big sayi out from under an old car hood. What a show for a 7 year old!

Let's just see here it's 1969 and your 7 years old...hhmmm

Just kidding there OLD BOY...lol

Your northern pal
Andy

Thanks John for the background info... I thought there was a couple of Toms involved.

Presidio Co. sayi/affinis intergrade
Scott John Reptiles

I assume you're talking about me...

I acquired my trio from a guy who got them as hatchlings. I don't really remember who produced them originally, but I want to say it was a professor at USC. I talked to Moise at the Anaheim show last year and got some of the background. My impression was that there was an original 2.2 and that one pair went to San Antonio, and the other went to the guy in Oregon- I don't believe either pair was bred again. Is that true that the guy on Oregon never got babies?

My animals are only around 6 feet in length, but are still popping out 20-25 eggs per clutch.

John Michels

I also got some big, fat babies this year that are reddish... Here's a pic.

Here's a recent pic of one of my breeders.

Now seriously... what is cooler than that?

Wow those snakes are beautiful. I wish I had the room for more snakes. But they are definatly high on my wish list.

Ken

John, excellent photography. I also got a really "reddish" hatchling this year as well. hold onto yours and maybe we can get them together. The color does not show up in this image but there is definitely a reduction of black pigment giving a rust or rufus hue to the stripes and saddles.

I acquired my trio from a guy who got them as hatchlings. I don't really remember who produced them originally, but I want to say it was a professor at USC.

Thom Moisi produced most of the animals that are now adults in the USA. We sold most of those for him. I was told his founders came from eggs hatched from a wild bred female. Brought to the USA with paperwork some 12-13 years ago. At least one animal unrelated to this group (Ginter's) exists. Perhaps Tom in Oregon has unrelated too?? John?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER