Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Blue Eyed Leucistic question:

Would one of the following pairings produce a better looking Leucistic? Or would they be one in the same?

Lesser x Mojave
Mojave x Mojave

I have an opportunity to pick up a male Mojave, and I was wondering if I should get a pair, or pick up a Lesser for him.

Thanks for any and all opinions!
Ken

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1.0 Spider Ball Python (Sarki)
0.1 Pastel Ball Python (Panthea)
0.1 100% Het Albino Ball Python (Hazina Adamma)
1.0 Albino Ball Python (Apu)
0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)

1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)


www.ocballs.net
kvandoren@ocballs.net

A mojave X mojave does not produce a lucy in my opinion, it's a white snake with a dirty looking head. Cool, but not a lucy. If you want a truly white snake, you'll have to go either lesser X lesser, or lesser x mojave.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

i would get a lesser or a butter to pair with you mojave. i say this because if you had a male BEL from either of those pairings you could breed it to a normal female and produce a more diverse clutch......

c

The lesser x mojave leucistic will be more white. The mojave x mojave will have a grey/silvery head, and the body isn't stark white. There's some pics of lesser x mojave leucistics below. I don't think I'll ever breed mojave x mojave, I don't really care for the super mojave compared to the lesser x mojave leucistic.

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-Jeff
http://jefflumanreptiles.com

after reading this discussion, i have this question about BELs: if Mojave x Mojave produces a white snake with a "dirty" head, and Lesser x Mojave produces an all white snake, is there any difference then with a Lesser x Lesser? how about a Butter x Butter or a Butter x Mojave or a Butter x Lesser? will these all be stark white and identical to a Lesser x Mojave?
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Neutiquam erro. Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.

I would do Lesser x Mojave just for the fact that you should produce Lesser and Mojave offspring, and not just one or the other.

Dave

I will be doing all the crosses....sooner or later...

I will be doing the mojave to mojave first ,because I like the dirty,colored snakes and not the all white ones....just gives them more character actually......

....just like some ivories have alot of yellow and dirt compared to others.....

....soonder or later we'll all have one of each anyways....LOL........
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LOL......

I just wanted to verify this:

Would a lesser x mojave BEL bred to a normal produce lessers AND mojaves in the same clutch?

Thanks
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Tristan

1.0 Argentine Black and White Tegu (Roy)
1.1 Pastel Ball Pythons
1.0 Spider Ball Python
0.2 Normal Ball Pythons

yes, all lessers and mojaves. No normals

A lesser x mojave lucy will NOT produce all mojos and lessers in a clutch when bred to a normal. That's like saying a bee bred to a normal will only produce pastels and spiders. There will be normals.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Super Mojave, Blue Eyed Lucy, when bred to a normal, will produce all Mojaves....

So, how would a Lesser/Mojave Lucy not do the same?

Dave

They are not the same gene and will distribute independently. That cross can produce lesser/mojave (BEL), Mojaves, Lessers and Normals. It just happes that when the two different co-dom genes end up in the same animal you get a BEL. But when an offspring only inherits one or the other from that parent it will be mojave or lesser. If it inherits neither, you get a normal.

I am not a Ball expert, but I do have a Master's in Science and get the genetics very well. The confusing thing is understanding what people are calling all of the different morphs and knowing when to treat them as seperate genes in the Punnett.

Cheers
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Jessica
0.2 Pastel jungle
1.1 Spiders
1.0 Het pied
0.2 Pied
1.0 VPI axanthic poss het snow
0.1 Het VPI axanthic
1.1 Het clown
1.0 DH Jolliff snow
0.1 Albino het Jolliff snow
1.0 Albino
1.0 Black pastel
1.0 Lesser Platinum
0.1 Lemon Blast
0.1 Mojave poss. het pied
0.1 Poss. het albino
1.0 Caramel
0.1 Het Caramel
0.1 Lace Blackback

Correct, the confusion lies in the fact that a super mojave is commonly referred to (incorrectly) as a leucistic. It is not, it is a super mojave. Everyone thinks that a super mojave "lucy" and a lucy that has one parent are the same mutation which they are NOT.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Simple; a super mojave is just that, the super form of a mojave, (similar to a super pastel) which, when bred to a normal, will give you the non-super form of the morph, in this case, either pastel (in the super pastel example) or a mojave (in the super mojave example).
a BEL from a lesser X mojave breeding produces white snakes that are NEITHER the super form of a lesser, NOR the super form of a mojave. They are two single morphs that produce a white snake when bred together. Therefore, when you breed a lesser X mojave lucy to a normal, you will get:
25% lucy
25% lesser
25% mojave
25% normal
Just think about it.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Hmmm, I did think about it, and yeah, it makes sense. The Super Mojave Lucy is a Super, but the Lesser/Mojave Lucy is not a Super, but a combo. Interesting.

Dave

A combo in the blue eyed leucistic complex is different than a combo of different genes like bumblebee. This is because all the mutations in this complex appear to be different mutations of the same gene (alleles). Because mojave and lesser are different mutations of the same gene there is no third normal copy of that gene in the lesser//mojave combo leucistic so it can't produce normal. It also can't produce a leucistic when bred to a normal because it can't give two copies of the same gene to the same offspring. This was actually proven several years ago by Morph King when they bred mojave lesser leucistic males to a large number of normals and produced only about 50/50 lesser and mojave. It now looks like we have several allele complexes so this new idea is something we all need to get up to speed on.

Thank god someone on here knew the right answer. Lessers, butters, mojaves...all gene mutations on the SAME allele. Spiders, pastels...DIFFERENT alleles. That is why you can get normals or bumblebees from a bumblebee X normal breeding.

BUT a BEL X normal is entirely different. A BEL has two copies of the allele in question, a copy that provides the mojave mutation, and the copy that provides the lesser mutation. SO every offspring in the clutch will be either a mojave or a lesser. Same thing with an eightball cinny/black pastel. Bred to a normal it will produce either cinnies or blacks, no normals. While the BEL lesser/mojave isn't CALLED a super, it is a super in a lot of ways. While it is not homozygous for one particular gene it is homozygous for a mutation at the allele in question.

at least until somebody proves it otherwise. No normals. No Lucy's just Mojo's and Lessers. JP

Wow, so someone did prove it out. Earlier I explained inheritance of 25% Lucy, 25% Mojave, 25% Lesser and 25% Normal, based on Mykee's response to the original post. But if someone bred a Mojave Lesser Lucy to a bunch of normals and got 50/50, then it works as a multiple allele system, codominant inheritance. Cool. Thanks for offering that bit of info.
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Jessica
0.2 Pastel jungle
1.1 Spiders
1.0 Het pied
0.2 Pied
1.0 VPI axanthic poss het snow
0.1 Het VPI axanthic
1.1 Het clown
1.0 DH Jolliff snow
0.1 Albino het Jolliff snow
1.0 Albino
1.0 Black pastel
1.0 Lesser Platinum
0.1 Lemon Blast
0.1 Mojave poss. het pied
0.1 Poss. het albino
1.0 Caramel
0.1 Het Caramel
0.1 Lace Blackback

Great discussion. So , if I understand correctly...in order to unlock the identity of our ch unknown origin BEL..when we breed him to normal females, we should produce the codoms that brought him about ..no normals...but..if he is not a combo lucy we will get a lucy perhaps and some normals as well as the codom...I think.
Toni

oops no bel unless we beed him to another codom...none with a normal.
toni

yep, unless you're lucky enough to have the normal allele lacking in the developing embryo and so the mutant one will duplicate himself, has already happened to me having a super from pastel X normal and to another user having a supermojo from mojo X normal
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www.qualitysnakes.it

do you live under a powerline? : )
toni

>>do you live under a powerline? : )
>>toni

I can see it now..Is my snake room is going to take on an ominous,Tesla looking,mad scientists lab in the search?...how was it he built that lightning machine again? lol
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Charles Glaspie
http://www.myspace.com/coldthumb

yep.. lol

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www.qualitysnakes.it

must be StarBorn
t

Exactly what I though

Good to know, I am not alone here
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love this world, don't hate it.

I am going to have to agree with everyone else. Lesser X Mojo is the way to go. Same effect as a Super in that you would produce no normals in any clutch. But a much cleaner looking Lucy. JP

Stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyways.

If the BEL is produced using a LesserXMojave, couldn't the out come of breeding it to a normal also have a 25% chance of producing BEL in the clutch?

If you look at the Bumblebee, a double co-dom(PastelXSpider), when it is bred to a normal you get a 25% chance of producing Bumblebees.

So wouldn't the LesserXMojave BEL be considered a double co-com?

Chris

yes, adn you would also still produce normals contrary to what everyone here is saying. 25% chance of BEL's, 25% chance of lessers, 25% chance of mojos and 25% chance of normals.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

I can see why you would think that, but as far as I know breedings involving a blue-eyed leucistic have passed on the co-dom trait/traits that were used to produce the leucistic (lessers, mojaves, phantoms, etc...) to all of the offspring. No normals or leucistics are produced.

If anyone has seen different results I'd be interested in hearing about it.
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-Jeff
http://jefflumanreptiles.com

Aren't Lesser Complex genes located on the same locus/loci? A BEL has a pair of leucistic genes on a chromosome--one each from a Mojave/Butter/Russo/Lesser--therefore can only pass the Mojave/Butter/Russo/Lesser gene to offspring.
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Michael

I think we are saying the same thing but I would word it a little different. The reason that the cross line leucistics can't produce normals or leucistics when bred to a normal is because they only have two copies of the gene at the locus for this complex. Just because there are several different known mutations of that gene (lesser/butter, mojave, phantom, Vin Russo, mocha, hidden, special) any one snake can only have two. If it's a leucistic or a platy or a crystal it already has two mutant copies and no room for a normal copy. And because they are all mutations of the same gene and only one copy of each gene is passed to each offspring it can't pass two of the mutations along to make a leucistic when bred to normal. It's just like a het albino can't pass on both its albino and its normal for albino gene to the same offspring, it must pass one or the other. Except with this complex there are more versions than just one mutation and normal, for some reason there are many different mutant versions. They are distinctly different mutations of the same gene – alleles. A new concept that is becoming more important as it looks like there may also be a yellow belly complex and a black eyed leucistic complex and who knows what else (maybe some of the albino types will turn out to be alleles).

I don't have a Masters in science but I get this one pretty well. No normals. No Lucy's. Just Lessers and Mojo's. thought I'd switch up a little. JP

Very clear explanation!....I agree with you 100%. I am glad that my question brought out this lively discussion. That's one of the benefits of this forum, there is so much to learn and with the interaction with so many people somebody always has the latest info from which all of us can benefit...
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Neutiquam erro. Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.

That's true, I haven't seen a "lively" discussion that hasn't been deleted by the Mods to nothing in a long time.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

but the real question is do you understand now why you can't produce a lucy or a normal from these lucy crosses? Randy has the best way to desribe the genetics.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Thanks Randy!

I've posted about Wes Harris proving that a lesser X mojave BEL will produce ONLY lessers and mojaves when bred to a normal many times before. He proved it by breeding it to over 12 normals and is still is doing it today! RDR is well on his way proving that his "KARMA" BEL (phantom X lesser) when bred to normals will ONLY produce phantoms and lessers as well!

Cheers Randy!

Alan

Yes, you are right. That is why a BEL lesser/mojave bred to a normal will NOT produce BELs. They are on the same locus and so can not pass on both genes in a breeding.

Let us all know when this theory is proven.....

Thank you everyone for all the wonderful information!

It was very helpful!
Ken
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1.0 Spider Ball Python (Sarki)
0.1 Pastel Ball Python (Panthea)
0.1 100% Het Albino Ball Python (Hazina Adamma)
1.0 Albino Ball Python (Apu)
0.5 Normal Ball Pythons (Norma, Nova, Nala, Nimeesha, Nyoka)

1.0 Desert Tortoise (Tubbs) from Tortoise Rescue
1.0 Boxer (Shadow)


www.ocballs.net
kvandoren@ocballs.net

... was informative as hell. Great discussion on genetics. I love it.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)