Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I work at a pet shop and have been noticing some problems with our baby dragons. I am hopeing someone can give me a hand. The babies will come in looking fine. Good weight and feeding well on crickets and greens. Then seemingly from out of the blue one will stop eating and rapidly decline. I am getting very frustrated. I have never come across anything like this with my personal dragons at home. Right now I am forcefeeding one at the store to try to keep him going. Any thoughts on the matter will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
BTW these are sent to us a "vet checked" dragons from Fluker Farms so I had hoped that we were starting with healthy animals...?????
Thanks again,
Tara

do they have diarhea? what kind of greens are they getting, and how big are the crix? how warm is the basking spot?
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Basking site is between 90 and 95. Feeding kale, romaine, and mustard greens and they are about this big....(bad guess at sizes) about ... maybe an inch long than the computer's mouse? with the tail.

the basking spot is too low, that could cause the lack of appetite. it should be minimally at 103. about 110-115 would be ideal. i believe UV light is also important to increase appetite and activity. romaine is relatively low in nutrients, but the other greens are good. the crix should be no longer than the space between the dragon's eyes or they could become impacted.

to adjust the basking spot, just move the lamp closer, the spot higher, or use a higher wattage bulb. its really important for the temps to be high enough or its difficult for them to digest.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

So sorry ...I was trying to come up with the dragon size (of course) not the crickets. )1/4 inch by the way. But I will try to raise the basking temp. I am in Louisiana so sometimes it is hotter than 95 but not by much. I was afraid to put them to hot. What gets me is that the others will aggresively go after the crickets (generally we have four to six in the enclosure) but one will "give up"

yeah, its definetely important that the basking site be hot; just dont let the ambient temps get so high.
if its only one that's not really eating, it could be that he's being picked on by the others. its best to separate him, although that may be difficult in a store. at the least, you may want to try feeding him in a separate enclosure from the otehrs so that he can eat all he wants without getting attacked or just beaten to the punch by the others.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

they are sick because they are fluker dragons most likely he isnt doing anything wrong

the basking spot IS too cool.
however, yes, there may very well be something wrong with the dragons.
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

Who's vet? theirs or yours?
I just can't even stand the name where you mentioned they came from.
Since I didn't mention it, I guess I can say they have sick dragons and have managed to destroy people's whole collections by passing on their many parasitic and virus ridden dragons.
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TheClassyLizard

well let me inform you your dragons dont actually come from flukers in louisiana where they are based they actually come from A El Salvador reptile republics go ahead ask them that is where flukers gets there dragons.I just got one frm PetsMART A MOnTH GO and he is just starting to now sho signs of sickness. I read somethng intersting today to but i don't remember where that flukers wanted there reptiles to be different looking then regular reptiles so they coul turn it into a big huge thing a charge lots of money for these reptiles so how knows what they are testing on these guys in El salvador
I beleive that www.bearded-dragons.com forum is related to fluker's because i posted on 4 different forums looking for advice and good vet recommendations about my dragons that might have yellow fungus disease and this site deleted my posts which in them I had stated,"the infected one to start with was one of the many cases from fluker farms reptile republic which are all from El Salvador" and i re-posted it everytime about the 4th time i left out fluker farms and it stayed.

I TO REALLY DISLIKE THAT COMPANY

I agree, the F Farms company had dragons that were sick gav them away and people got them suddenly their dragons were diing.
Matt

Your post was most likely deleted because of the TOSS regulations. To even hint that a particular forum is in kahoots with that company could find you in deep crap legally, let alone saying it in public.
Bearded-dragons.com is a great forum that has been around for years.
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TheClassyLizard

So I do not think it is involved with FF or Reptile Republic

and saying that there is really Pisses me off ..
Allegations like that are fightin words.

I grew up (beardie wise) on that forum and Gary is one of the most knowledgable people I know when it comes to dragons and their care.

I don't think anyone on this forum would want people to say they were connected with Flukers in any way shape or form, I'm sure he doesn't either!!!
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TheClassyLizard

Howard Fluker is owner and manager of FFI Reptile, Iguanas
Tropicales and the Reptile Republic which are in El Salvador, Central America.

Fluker Farms is controlled by its president, David Fluker, who is brother to Howard Fluker.

They do share stockholders.

Howard did export bearded dragons to David and some other wholesalers, we thought that David had stopped selling them after last years fiasco (a complete failure), obviously not as Fluker Farms is now telling callers they do supply PetSmart with bearded dragons from El Salvador.

There is no way they do not know their dragons had problems.... this is a quote from Howard Fluker from last September:

I would like to thank everyone who has enjoyed our contest but due to recent posts in the Bearded Forum we have temporally decided to suspend the contest until we can check the health of all of our Bearded Dragons here at the Reptile Republic.
Thank You,
Howard Fluker
Reptile Republic

what were those posts? Many of "the Winners" received diseased and ill animals, many died, many more infected other animals in the homes they went to...... and gee... people were complaining.... imagine that!

This is NOT the first time they loaded the US with diseased and dying animals..... I am sure it will not be the last, as long as people buy them, Pet Store resell them, and us as consumers support those products and Stores, we enable them to continue in the business of being the single most killer company of reptiles in the world.

Email PetSmart, we know they are WELL AWARE of the problem, it was a manger in one of their store that was the first to bring this to the attention of them when he received dead bearded dragons in a shipment covered with fungus, that is STILL showing up in their animals today.

Kim Jones is the person who was aware of the problems in the Rock Hill SC store.. rememeber yellermelon on here? Her boss is Dan Tisch, the head of PM's Customer Service Dept, he knows too.

The number for their department is 1-800-738-1385 ext 2518. Dan Tisch also assigned this mess to Karen Mourad of the Legal Department, any requests should be made in writing, she will not give out her phone number.

Karen Mourad
Legal Department
PETsMART.com
1989 Transit Way
PO Box 910
Brockport, NY 14420-0910

Okay now..... can anyone doubt ALL THESE in the chain from Howard Fluker to David Fluker to PetSmart to Kim Jones to Dan Tisch to Karen Mourad DO NOT know? They know, they just don't care, its $$$

AS the Fluker's said in a new article "David and Howard Fluker, though, intend to turn their exotic pets (some of which sell for $300 or more) into animals with a brand identity, think the Coca-Cola of lizards."

Sadly, it appears the Fluker brother do not understand that animals are not a disposable product. When the animals die, their customers cannot just dump it down a drain and pop the top on the next one in the refrigerator. The Fluker brothers may be able to dismiss all the dead animals they are responsible for, but the people who bought them don't - and won't.

Think the Coca-Cola of lizards. EXACLTY!! Think... does anyone make Coca-Cola at home?? What better way to eventually corner the market as a huge conglomerate than to wipe out your competition. Reminds me of Microsoft. Biologically engineered virus?? Hmmmmm... the conspiracy theory begins!!!

Neither my site nor myself, are related to... influenced by... in cahoots with... in partnership with... or associated in any way known to me, with the company you mentioned earlier. Never have been. Aren't now. Won't be in the future. Based purely on personal reasons not necessarily related to this particular thread of discussion.

Don't know how to say it any more clearly than that.

Feel free to email me with any further questions or comments.

do some searches.... as said below the supplier has a very interesting history .... and not a good one at all....
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This space reserved for future use...

What substrate do these dragons live on? Is their poo cleaned out every day or left there for days? Have a fecel done on the one that isn't doing well, and house him separately if you can. Check the fecals from the others as well. They could have a high parasite infection. If any have died, have a necropsy done and tell the vet to check for Adrenovirus. If one has it there is a very high possibility they all have it and most likely all the stock your supplier has, is also infected. If this virus is found in any of the dragons, then you should contact everybody who was sold a dragon from this batch and earlier ones to have their dragons checked and to keep them isolated from any existing dragons they may have as it is a very contagious virus. There is no cure for it but in some dragons it doesn't affect their health. These people should be discouraged from breeding their carrier dragons to help prevent this disease from spreading.

i doubt the pet store, particularly if its a chain, is going to be willing to pay for a fecal, much less a necrospy. beardies are just too disposable to be worth the money
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

FF is bad... mmmmkay! Seriously, get your dead dragons neocropsied. If it is adenovirus you need to stop selling them imediately before we have a horrible dragon epidemic on our hands. Profitablitly should defintaely be outweighed by risk here. I manage a pet store, and one thing that happens alot in our trade with these little guys is housing inadequacies. How many do you have in what size tank? You need to seperate them into groups of 4 according to size and house four per ten gallon tank. Over competition for food commonly causes what you are describing. You can set up some of the tanks as back stock and only keep your bigger healthier ones on the sales floor. Make sure you are feeding the right size crickets, offering enough calcium supplementation, providing proper heat and UVB. Also... how many times a day are you feeding?

The Beardies are in a 30 gallon size habitat. I am a bit offended. My store is interested in the health of its animals and I do try to get a fecal done on any animal that I feel is having trouble. (Last weekend the vet found that my eastern collard lizard had snails?????) I sometimes have to fight to get the vet to worm my animals (she is not a reptile vet and seems afraid to do something wrong) but my store stands behind me in seeking whatever care I deem needed. Not all stores are just about the all mighty dollar.
I do thank everyone for their help and have raised the basking temp. I also will see what I can find out about Fluker. Thanks for the heads up there. Our dragons did come from El Salvador.
Thanks again,
Tara
P.S. Dragons are on calisand.

its great thatyour store cares about your animals. if you look around a bit youll find that most of us have a lot more experience with stores that couldnt care less, particularly for less expensive animals like normal beardies. hope theyre all getting better.

but one last thing, most of us say never use calci-sand paper towels and the like are best because they cant swallow pieces and get impacted, but if you really want sand, use non silica children's playsand...the grains are much smaller so less risk of problems

good luck!
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proud mama to:
1.0.0 ball python (mr snake),0.0.1 albino florida kingsnake (CK),1.0.0 leopard gecko (sebastian),0.1.0 colombian rainbow boa (luce),1.1.0 bearded dragon (kaipo and dulce), 1.1.0 colombian redtailed boas (adam and eve)

of the animals first, and knowing that, they would not have bought them, certainly not from the most disease loaded dragon breeder in the world.

Shipping a 3-8 week old baby that was raise outside in dirty condition, high humidity from El Salvador(nice breeding ground for fungus)to a warehouse, then shipping on to a store (this takes some days) then displaying to hundreds of people after all that, in conditions that are not what the need.....is not in any husbandry book I have seen..... in fact, they all say to avoid each of those things.

You will not convince me the stores care anything about the animals, they buy them to make money, without a thought before hand of the animal. Maybe some of the staff do care, but not the ones buying them..... they would never subject them to that or keep adding to the profits of the people who breed them with only that thought in mind

Baby Dragon Pen in El Salvador

You'll find that it causes impaction, leading to death in most cases. Baby dragons should not be on any substrate but paper towel, newspaper or butchers paper. It may look nice in the store, but very dangerous for the babies.
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TheClassyLizard

the cloth kind? Also, at what age is a beardie not considered a baby any more? TX!

Wideglide

Reptile carpet is ok..Paper products are just easier because babies poop so much. If you use reptile carpet, having a second one to switch out while the other is being cleaned is a good idea.
A baby quits being a baby at 6 mo, then it is a sub adult. At one year, it is considered an adult.
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TheClassyLizard