Reptile & Amphibian Forums

November 30, 2008 @ 15:32

Dreaming?

As I watched him resting on a warm spot where he had been motionless for many minutes, he suddenly jerked and moved his head, as though startled or in danger. He then moved slightly to adjust his position, then began resting motionlessly again. There was every indication that he had been napping and had a dream that awoke him.

I've seen dogs & cats dreaming many times; this is the first indication I've had of a snake dreaming.

It may have been plotting your overthrow.

hilarious!

654654
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Diego

SWCHR

I dream about snakes!
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

You should probably not watch "Willard" while he can see the T.V. anymore.

Sometimes you do know what they are thinking…

Depends on the snake though.

Snakes simply dont have the capacity to dream. Their primative brains dont have the cognitive areas that make it possible. What you saw was likely the internal movement of phlegm that blocked the windpipe and cut off his air. Its likely has some degree of respiratory infection. You can often test this by a squeeze on the lungs(front 1/3)and forcing mucous out the nose/mouth. Keep the heat up(82 in the cold part of the cage, 95 on the hot end)and it should dissipate within a week or 2.

Sorry, I had to..............

n/p
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

You offer a what if, but anyone can do that. There is also the what if it was dreaming.

The very truth is, you have no idea, not in the least, the mental ability of a snake.

I do know humans(us) do not give them credit for their actual abilities. As a field herper, they have about a million(give or take another million) behaviors then we do not give them credit for. I do know their behaviors a multitude and complex, pretty good for having a pea brain.

In reality, I have no actual evidence they dream or not. Also in all reality is does not serve me well to make that determination. Yes, there is some indication they may dream, but then, heck if I know.

Again, what gives you the idea they do not? what benefit does your stance take? Cheers

I guess all the brain research they have done doesnt mean anything either. Benefit? There doesnt have to be a benefit to post here as you prove,lol.

Have you ever dissected a snake brain? They have all the same cranial nerves that a mammal does except the spinal accessory nerve (XI), which is a motor nerve that supplies the cucullaris muscle. All the other nerves are serving all the various sensory functions. The kicker here is they all function as chemical receptors that are based on MEMORY. That is how a brain works it is constantly integrating incoming sensory information to the stored information. Snakes and all vertebrates for that matter have the capacity to learn, ever been around a Cobra? Where is your evidence that snakes have no such brain capacity?
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Mammalian brain fuction has been studied alot more than snake brains. They have found the areas of the brain responsible for these functions in mammals which simply dont exist in more primative brains. While I wont go all the way to say they dont reach such a state, but I am here to tell you that the experience is simply not homologous with mammalian brain function.

ho⋅mol⋅o⋅gous   /həˈmɒləgəs, hoʊ-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [huh-mol-uh-guhs, hoh-] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. having the same or a similar relation; corresponding, as in relative position or structure.
2. corresponding in structure and in origin, but not necessarily in function: The wing of a bird and the foreleg of a horse are homologous.
3. having the same alleles or genes in the same order of arrangement: homologous chromosomes.
4. Chemistry. of the same chemical type, but differing by a fixed increment of an atom or a constant group of atoms: Methyl and ethyl alcohols are homologous.
5. Immunology. pertaining to an antigen and its specific antibody.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1650–60; < ML homologus < Gk homólogos agreeing, equiv. to homo- homo- + -logos proportional, equiv. to log- (s. of lógos proportion; see logos ) + -os -ous

What is your point? Homologous, comparing brain function by BRAIN AREA, the area of the brain relating to dreaming in mammals is minimized if not absent in snakes. Nice cutting and pasting though.....

No point Jeff other than to save folks the trip to dictionary.com who are following the thread. Not a common term. My spelling well.....it's a bit better than a lot of other folks here but far from perfect. Also just trying to lighten things up a bit. Some of these threads get a little intense sometimes. have a good nite er.. night

...saved me a trip to a dictionary site!
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Diego

SWCHR

I'm inclined to agree with FR and others. We have *NO IDEA* how intelligent snakes are. Very little substantive research has been done on their cognitive ability. (Name three or more such serious research instances? By whom? At what site??)

Remember in prior centuries when people thought that animals were quite stupid? They doubted the claims some people made that dogs, cats & birds are actually quite intelligent.

We now know of a Collie with a vocabulary of over 250 words; nor of the Gorilla with a vocabulary of over 650 words.

I know, those are mammals, but...

Scientists were amazed recently when they put cameras below sea level to study starfishes. The thought was that starfishes are quite simple animals, devoid of much thought, since they lacked a central brain.

Imagine their surprise when photo sessions revealed that starfishes had a knowledge of low & high tide, and feeding conditions affected by them. Starfishes vied for prime real estate on the craggy ocean floor, and had amazing social interactions. They are extremely social creatures! (Like some snakes, especially Garters.)

Scientists came to the conclusion that although starfishes lack a central brain, their intelligence may actually reside in each individual cell. Quite a powerful thought.

Do IQ tests really reveal the intelligence of a person, or just how they respond to a test developed by someone measuring according to how much you think like them? Culture differences profoundly affect the results of IQ tests.

Naturalists in AZ claim that they have witnessed an AZ Mountain Kingsnake actually crawling out in the open to bait birds which would attack it and drive it to cover. Once in concealment, the snake was said to watch carefully which trees the birds subsequently flew back to. It later went to those trees to raid their nests! It demonstrated cunning, memory & deliberate actions.

I'm in the camp that says: We have no idea how intelligent snakes or other animals are. We're only beginning to understand what Intelligence is, how it is manifested differently from species to species, and how to possibly measure it.

(What is love? How do you measure it??)

Stop concentrating on what hasnt been done and focus on what HAS been done. Read up on what function each area of the human brain has and compare the size/complexity of that area of a snakes. There may never be a scientific way to measure what you are looking for, but you have to follow the scientific process. That is how they have theorized dinosaurs for years...

I would ask what purpose would dreaming serve a snake?

I have heard reasons as to why humans do and more specifically when we do it and why its even needed, but what purpose does it serve for a snake to dream? None would be my guess and no would be my answer weather right or wrong we may never know only that snake would
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Not knowing the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one.
My guess is, if it happens, that increased brain activity results in a smarter snake. So if it happens, snakes that dream may be more fit to survive awake than snakes that do not dream. Thus, natural selection would choose snakes that dream.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

>>Not knowing the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one.
>>My guess is, if it happens, that increased brain activity results in a smarter snake. So if it happens, snakes that dream may be more fit to survive awake than snakes that do not dream. Thus, natural selection would choose snakes that dream.
>>-----
>>Arrrggg!
>>It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
>>- iCarly

Nor does attaching something like dreaming to a snake make it a purpose.
Observation is key here because that's all the person did was attach a known human function to movements that the snake made.

If a snake can dream then could it not have nightmares or night tremors? Why would it have nightmares and what would a snake nightmare be?
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

If a snake can dream then could it not have nightmares or night tremors?

Maybe.

Why would it have nightmares

Brain activity related to the memory of unpleasant experiences

and what would a snake nightmare be?

Being chased by a feral cat.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

>>If a snake can dream then could it not have nightmares or night tremors?
>>
>>Maybe.
>>
>>
>>Why would it have nightmares
>>
>>Brain activity related to the memory of unpleasant experiences
>>
>>and what would a snake nightmare be?
>>
>>Being chased by a feral cat.
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>>Arrrggg!
>>It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
>>- iCarly

LOL so two dimensional not all snakes would have nightmares of a feral cat, some boids come to mind That is of course if a snake can even dream, now I wonder what my dreams will be tonight?
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

maybe to relieve stress!
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Todd Hughes