Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok, I said I never wanted to get into this and always stay out of these topics. The need for me to learn ultra genetics has come to light.

What I dont understand is why ultra does not work like other corn snake simple genetics. If you breed two of the same type of snakes together, why do you not get 100% of those offspring?

Ok, so tell me, please. What would a pairing of ultra anery motley to ultra anery motley give? If it is easier, leave out the motley, as that is easily identified.

any info would be great. Please be simple in the explanation. Although I understand general corn snake genetics, I know nothing about the Ultra gene
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

Hay Misty

This is a COPY from a site.

"This is a genetically independent form of HYPOMELANISTIC in cornsnakes. The origin of the gen was long discussed, cause the breeder had many ratsnakes hybrids in his lines. He swears, that the original ULTRA HYPO gen was found in a pure cornsnake and that there are also pure animals left, which are the carrying the ULTRA HYPO gen that is used today. The animals do look a little different than normal HYPOMELANISTICs. It is noteworthy that ULTRA HYPO is an allel to AMELANISTIC, meaning that they share the same place in the gens of the snake, called loci. Hence, when AMELANISTIC and ULTRA HYPO is bred together, the offspring isn't normal looking but showing the co-dominant effect of both genes. These animals are already famous and called ULTRAMELS."

Did it help? Or maybe you've read this?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

that seems to e a good start to the explanation.
Tom- I'd never shoot the messenger!
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

Ultra CAN work the same as all of the other traits - IF your ultra is really homozygous for ultra, and if you keep amel out of the equation.

In most other corn traits, the snake HAS to be homozygous for the trait, or it just looks normal. The confusion is due to the fact that a corn can be het for ultra AND het for amel, and, since they are both carried at the same place, they combine to produce something other than a normal corn that is het for two different traits. That combo is called an ultramel.

Most "ultras" are not really ultras, they are ultramels. So instead of being homozygous FOR ANYTHING, they are het for 2 things.

I have an adult ultra caramel AND also an ultramel caramel (golddust). The ultramel is lighter, but the only way I could really be sure is through test breedings. The homo ultra is always predictable on what it will produce, because it can only contribute ultra genes - it has no amel genes to give its offspring, unlike my ultramel golddust.

You are probably aware that a normal corn that is het for 2 traits (say amel and anery) will produce a variety of babies - normal, anery, amel, and snow. That is because each parent can contribute more than one type of gene at each location. o if you think of ultramels as being het for 2 traits (amel and ultra), and that ultramel is the "normal" look of these 2 traits in their combo het state, then you should be able to compare it to the first example and understand why you get more than just ultramels.

I know that is a long explanation, but hopefully it makes sense.

thank you for that info. Your explanation is much easier to follow than what I have read. Now, if I have it correct, an ultramel is basically a normal snake (that does not look normal) and is Het for amel and ultra.

Is there a name for the snake that is Homo fo both, or can that not be since they are on the same location?

i usually dont have this much issue with genetics. But, I think I am starting to understand a little more at a time.

How does ultra work with anery? Does an ultra anery have anything to do with amel?
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

>>When you breed an ultramel to an amel you get amels and ultramels.
If you breed an ultra to an amel do you get ultramels only?
Which leads me to my main question...In an ultramel to amel pairing resulting in amels and ultramels, is it true that the amels are not het ultra or ultramel?
I think this is the case but it seems odd to say the least.
thanks
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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In an ultramel to amel pairing resulting in amels and ultramels, is it true that the amels are not het ultra or ultramel?
I think this is the case but it seems odd to say the least.

Yes.
Ultra and Amel are mutations on the same locus.
There can only be two allele's on a locus.
If it is amel, both of those allele's are amel so there is no room for an ultra allele.

There is no such thing as het ultramel - ultramel is one ultra gene, one amel gene, on the same locus. An ultramel is het amel and an ultramel is het ultra. It is not a double het, though, because there is only one heterozygous gene pair involved.

I think the relation between ultra and amel is that ultra is partially dominant to amel - meaning that sometimes ultra gene dictates the look of the snake and amel gene has no say, sometimes amel gene influences the look.

Partial dominance is not something I fully understand. Whether or not ultra is dominant to the amel allele may depend upon other genes, I really have no clue how that works though.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

This will be relatively short. Long ago a friend named Mr.. Spuckler and I differed on how or what co dom was. He said it was used differently by boa people than my stricked book definition. I actually had a genetics class, it was great. So I went back to my prof. Bottom line of 2 years of questions to her and 3-4 others with masters and PhDs. I bowed to the guru of corn, once again.

Co dom and incomplete dom can mean different thing to different groups. Worse incomplete dom can act like co dom and vice verse. Add in genes are also affected by location. if amel was next to hypo they can effect each other based on what allele is at the locus.

My conclusion was to give up. Why have standard terms that are not standard. I read more about corns, than other snakes. So I'd rather understand the effects than the names. I know we have to use them. But it makes no sense to have them so loosely used. And not by the lay person but by everyone from the top down?

By the way those were great chats back at the pets o parma.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I'll give my shot at trying to explain it.

On the amel allele - there are the following possible gene combinations:

W W - Wild phenotype, het for nothing

W A - Wild phenotype, het for amel

A A - Amel phenotype, homo amel

W U - Wild phenotype, het ultra

U U - Ultra phenotype, homo ultra

U A - Ultramel phenotype, heterozygous gene pair

The problem is you can not reliably tell Ultra phenotype from Ultramel phenotype without breeding tests, especially of there are other gene pairs involved.

If you have a snake that could be ultra or ultramel, you can breed to an amel.

If any homo amel result, the snake in question is an ultramel because it *must* have the amel gene for an amel offspring to result. All non amel in the clutch will be ultramel because they *must* have gotten an amel gene from the amel parent.

If no homo amel result and it is a decent sized clutch, then the snake in question is probably homo ultra and no homo amels resulted because it did not have an amel gene to pass on. All the young are ultramel.

If you breed suspect ultramel with suspect ultramel and any amel result, both are ultramel - but if no amel result, one or both of them are homo ultra and you don't know which.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

I am glad you were able to keep that straight. One thing for sure, I would not be able to explain this to anyone, even if I am starting to understand it better.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

that act like Ultra, and at a different loci? If not imagin having 2 of those puppies interacting. Or a new allele at the amel loci! WOW. Ok I'll stop, that could be the future!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

...and it's your fault.

Try mouse genetics. In the mouse, there are at least 6 mutant genes at the c locus. The mouse's c locus is equivalent to the corn snake's a (for amelanistic) locus.

Paul Hollander

I've been helping my friend at a shop for close to 8 years now. We go thru 200 mice aweek. And I have yet to see a tri color mouse. a true calico. I see cool deer like colors with mulitple shades but no calicos. I had some as a kid. I hate mice, but I would take a few of them. Why are they so rare?

Below is a rhino mouse I had. I had a few they did not do well at all.

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

Here is an equivalent situation.

You are the cookie server at a dinner. There are three kinds of cookies -- chocolate, lemon, and vanilla. You must put two (and only two) cookies on each plate as people pass by. These can be two cookies of the same type or one cookie of each of two types.

Here are the possible combinations.
chocolate & chocolate
chocolate & lemon
chocolate & vanilla
lemon & lemon
lemon & vanilla
vanilla & vanilla

If we assign chocolate as equivalent to the normal gene, lemon as equivalent to the ultra mutant gene and vanilla as equivalent to the amel mutant gene, we get the following:
chocolate & chocolate = normal
chocolate & lemon = heterozygous normal/amelanistic (AKA het amelanistic)
chocolate & vanilla = heterozygous normal/ultra (AKA het ultra)
lemon & lemon = ultra
lemon & vanilla = heterozygous ultra/amelanistic (AKA ultramel)
vanilla & vanilla = amelanistic

Paul Hollander

Wow. That is about the most cut and dry explanation. lol. Thanks.

Anyone up for helping me with the ultra anery question. What do I get from breeding 2 ultra anerys? The snakes in question are also motley, but that can be left off, as I know the results there.

Thanks!
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

Ultra anery X Ultra anery = Ultra anery.

If you get some snows then both are ultramel anery and not ultra anery.
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Arrrggg!
It's like Shalom, but for pirates.
- iCarly

so, that looks like it'd work out like the normal corn genetics. Sounds like ultra and amel are just a different case becase they are on the same location.

I understand this much more than before
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

>>Here is an equivalent situation.
>>
>>You are the cookie server at a dinner. There are three kinds of cookies -- chocolate, lemon, and vanilla. You must put two (and only two) cookies on each plate as people pass by. These can be two cookies of the same type or one cookie of each of two types.
>>
>>Here are the possible combinations.
>>chocolate & chocolate
>>chocolate & lemon
>>chocolate & vanilla
>>lemon & lemon
>>lemon & vanilla
>>vanilla & vanilla
>>
>>If we assign chocolate as equivalent to the normal gene, lemon as equivalent to the ultra mutant gene and vanilla as equivalent to the amel mutant gene, we get the following:
>>chocolate & chocolate = normal
>>chocolate & lemon = heterozygous normal/amelanistic (AKA het amelanistic)
>>chocolate & vanilla = heterozygous normal/ultra (AKA het ultra)
>>lemon & lemon = ultra
>>lemon & vanilla = heterozygous ultra/amelanistic (AKA ultramel)
>>vanilla & vanilla = amelanistic
>>
>>Paul Hollander
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

after reading that, I was thinking of corns with those names.
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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"The more things change, the more they remain Insane"

your people's "simple" answers take too long to read and go on and on.......HA!

.....it's all simpler......

....mix a grey rat with a corn and mess the genetics all up
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LOL......

>>your people's "simple" answers take too long to read and go on and on.......HA!
>>
>>.....it's all simpler......
>>
>>....mix a grey rat with a corn and mess the genetics all up
>>-----
>>......

your bottom line says it all.
I have one that is grey/corn and proven ultramel....hmmm

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

.......messed up....I can't give them away......well.actually it's close....as with all corns......I keep the ultramel opal and lavs and ultra lavs....yes I got ultra lavs this year....kinda cool....red eyed....some were weak , I think I lost some....one is a killer....(acting)....

......might as well keep them......can give them away after I feed them for a couple years....HA!....

.....
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LOL......

Hey, I got me a White Oak Grey rat.. I think this might have an intrseting breeding season next year.. Considering the size of the White Oak compared to a Corn.. What size difference...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

>>Hey, I got me a White Oak Grey rat.. I think this might have an intrseting breeding season next year.. Considering the size of the White Oak compared to a Corn.. What size difference...
>>
>>Regards.. Tim of T and J

They are definitely beautiful snakes.
I love the frosted effect when bred with corns but they are just fine as they are. Underated species.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Well Jimmy.. I am thinking that if it is thought that ultramels came from Grey rats, specificly White Oak Phase, a breeding to an amel corn snake should produce ultramels according to the apparent line of thought..

I thought someone had done this particular breeding in a effort to prove it out but I can;t seem to find it any wheres.. A friend of mine used a grey rat X corn animal in a breeding against a snow corn this past year, and he had no ultramels in the clutch so my intrest is quite piqued.. Providing the White Oak is female, I should have no probelms test breeding with a big old amel boy I got many moons ago from Kathy.. Of course I would and will make the results public unless I am unsuccesful at getting the breeding done..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

>>Well Jimmy.. I am thinking that if it is thought that ultramels came from Grey rats, specificly White Oak Phase, a breeding to an amel corn snake should produce ultramels according to the apparent line of thought..
>>
>>I thought someone had done this particular breeding in a effort to prove it out but I can;t seem to find it any wheres.. A friend of mine used a grey rat X corn animal in a breeding against a snow corn this past year, and he had no ultramels in the clutch so my intrest is quite piqued.. Providing the White Oak is female, I should have no probelms test breeding with a big old amel boy I got many moons ago from Kathy.. Of course I would and will make the results public unless I am unsuccesful at getting the breeding done..
>>
>>
>>
>>Regards.. Tim of T and J

I got a little information from Carol about the male grey/corn ultramel I proved out with one of my cream females (no grey rat in her....bred here) I got ultramels and amels proving him to indeed be ultramel.
This is the info she gave me
"OK, that's Frosty. I bought him and a brother as a "pair" of Rusty Frosteds from Hardy Reptiles at a San Diego show in 2002. I later found out they were two males. Hardy Reptiles told me they were F2's from a Cornsnake X Grey Rat cross. At that time I assumed they were just Hypo A's from the cornsnake side until all the Ultras started popping up and had very similar coloration, saddle pattern and head pattern. Just to test, I bred Frosty to a Snow and sure enough got Snows, Amels, Ultramels, and Ultramel Aneries. His brother, Rusty, always had a rich yellow coloration with no red tones hence, he was bred to an Amber and we got all Caramels.
Carol"

I would really like to know exactly what the corn in the original corn/grey pairing was. And what it may have been het for. You would think the original corn would have probably been an amel het anery het caramel.... but???????
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Indeed, this is similair information I heard spoke from Hardy herself about combining grey rat and corn at a show.. Who knows what the original pairing was in this instance, I could not say..

I will find out for my own self intrests about the Grey rat thing first hand, of course the offspring will not be introduced to the main breeding group.. It shall be fun and thus a learning expieriance for myself..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

>>Indeed, this is similair information I heard spoke from Hardy herself about combining grey rat and corn at a show.. Who knows what the original pairing was in this instance, I could not say..
>>
>>I will find out for my own self intrests about the Grey rat thing first hand, of course the offspring will not be introduced to the main breeding group.. It shall be fun and thus a learning expieriance for myself..
>>
>>Regards.. Tim of T and J

I'm definitely interested in any and all results you get.

I think I might breed this male to one of my snows just to see if I get the same results Carol did.
I wish I had a caramel to breed it to. Find out if it is het caramel like it's brother.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Find a butter to breed him too ..

Heck yeah, I am more than willing to share the results with anyone that wants to listen.. I can only give back to the community what it has given me..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

...from black rat X corn, specifically a "Tequila Sunrise" line snow het hypo male X het amel rat. Two babies have faded belly checks and just look "different" than the other 4 hybrids...

One of the "odd looking" hybrids

The rest of the clutch; the other "oddball's" head is at the top of the pic

Don't want to jump to any conclusions or make any assumptions; there could be any number of factors that contribute to them looking as they do...

Hey Chris.. Thank you Sir.. Definantly neat looking and remind me of Becky's humongous kids.. I can't remember what she was calling them, but obviously from their shear size, they were not just corns!

Regards.. Tim of T and J

thats what shes calling them b/c of the HUGE size
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Tons of Corns, A Trio of Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, A Pair of Albino Nelsons Milksnakes, A Rescue RTB, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana

Thank you Ma'am... For the life of me I could not remember what she was calling them.. Thats bad ain;t it...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

thats ok... now you have to remind me of something next time i forget
~kin
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~Sober Serpents~
www.freewebs.com/soberserpents
Tons of Corns, A Trio of Creamsicles, A Black Rat, A pair of Leucistic Black Rat X Leucistic Texas Rat Intergrades, Thayeri, Cal Kings, A Jungle Corn, Ball Pythons, A Pair of Albino Nelsons Milksnakes, A Rescue RTB, Leopard Geckos, Green Anoles, 2 Snapping Turtles, an Eastern Box Turtle, a Bearded Dragon, an Adult Rescue Iguana

I fergits already! *LOL*

Regards.> Tim of T and J