Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Confused and not sure what is wrong with this woman's dragon????
Another mom from my child's school called me who knew we had dragons and asked me if I would mind coming to look at her son's dragon because she thought that there might be something wrong with it.
It is a female...she has these 2 very weird hard bumps sticking up on the base of her tail (1 on each side). I brought a few items with me and asked if I could stay a bit and observe her.

These are a few of things I noticed:
-Female
-Appears to be underweight... Brought my scale to weigh...only 270 grams & not large in length but does not look like it has been stunted in growth(I am going back this evening to take a pic of the dragon and measure her as well)
-Very large cage - more than adequate but is being housed with a male. I explained that they needed to be separated ASAP...to much stress on this female right now was not good
-Basking spot is 105, Cool spot 81...used my own gun to measure
-Brought a humidity gage as well. While the room humidity was 37...inside the tank was a shocking 15...horrible!!!
-While I observed her - she did move about her cage, but mostly seemed listless in the basking area.
-I inquired about her diet. She feeds a green diet daily of dandelion, kale, mustard, arugala all mixed with spring mix. She adds vitamin spray (I think it was T Rex brand) 5 times a week now that she has been looking sick and Calcium powder 6 days a week. She said she eats very well every day. I asked her to feed her some greens. She did and this female did jump right down and eat well.
-I asked about live feeder and she said that her husband had lost his job 2 months ago and their house was being foreclosed and they just have not had the money to buy live feeders for about a month
Good thing my husband always says I am OCD and way over - prepared...I had a cricket carrier with some dubias in it. I asked her to hold the male while I hand fed her the dubias which would be good for her because of the nutritional value. She ate everyone of the. She does have a hrdy appetite!!!
-The temperature is being caused by a 75 watt bulb though and when I asked why the UV light was turned off...she sign and told me it had blown 3 months ago and they just couldn't afford to to replace it right now...again I sighed!
.....I offered to take the dragon home with me and nurse it back to health...of course she is concerns with her son being upset that it is gone. I explained he would be much more upset coming home and finding it dead one day. I then offered to pay to take it the vet...I called my vet and the only one in the area who knows anything about reptiles (which still isn't very much unfortunately) and he can't see this poor thing for 10 days.
So I am going back tonight to take a pic of this 2 crazy bumps...they almost look like bones sticking up...really weir and I will measure her as well. I am going to try to convince her son to let me bring her home to take care of her until she is better...wish me luck and any ideas would be great as I have never seen this before!!!
Thanks

Are they on the bottom or top of the tail?

If they are on the top its likely they are literaly her bones sticking out from being thin - thats one of the first places you will start to see prominant bones in an underweight dragon.

So are you definately going to take the dragon? It sounds like she just needs some TLC and proper care! Good temps, UVB, diet, and a cage to herself should help a lot

Good for you for taking her! Are you planning on giving her back once she is rehabilitated?
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

Bumps at the base of her tail most likely are hip bones sticking out...a picture definitely be helpful.. IF the tail base looks thick anyway, then the bumps could be something completely different. Too much calcium can cause bone spurs, basically excessive growths on the bones.

The fact she is eating well and has a healthy appetite tends to rule out most husbandry conditions. Her weight at 270 grams is low but if she's only 16" long or less, and looks filled out, it may not be too bad...

What is her age?

No UVB is a major concern, especially if she is not using calcium with V. D3.

Being separated from the male would be beneficial, as just having him there could be stresing her out or he is eating most of the food.

As for not having the money to buy insects, kind of find it a lame excuse. If she is buying greens regularly, she can spend $10 to buy 250 superworms (or more) which will last her a month, feeding a half dozen to the female several times a week.

One other thing it could be is internal parasites...a heavy parasite load can suck out all the nutrients a dragon eats, especially worms.
-----
PHLdyPayne

I went back today again with my little "vet travel kit" as my husband and kids now say to me lol. I brought the scale, temp gun, measure tape, notepad, humidity gage and of course more dubias and a carry case...just in case I was able to kidnap oops I mean convince them to let me rehabilitate this poor little one.
I measured the female...she is 17 1/2 inches long and 270 grams! I gave her a few more dubias...again she ate them right up as did the male this time too. I checked him out as well...just out of concern for the conditions. He is 370 grams and very healthy looking but they just got him before her husband lost his job I guess...so much less time to malnourish him. He does however have 3 toes that have nails and tips missing and looked a bit sore. They weren't sure what had happened...but I am assuming lack of humidity in the cages led to improper shedding conditions and they are clueless on how to raise the humidity inside the tank if it higher outside the tank than in the cage (Tank today 22...Room 37)??? I cleaned his toes and applied some neosporin to them and noticed a small scab on his mouth as well. I began to get a bit irritated :O People like this should really just give their pets up to good loving homes!!! Again I asked if they had any ideas what happened...clueless. So I cleaned it...checked inside his mouth for any signs of mouth rot etc...thank God there was none...so again I applied nesporin lightly and left the tube with her. Wouldn't want to hear an excuse about not being able to afford the tube lol. Yes I guess that was a hint of sarcasm sorry Don't mean to vent...it was just painful to witness all of this and feel so helpless!!!
Back to the female...I was very concerned with her and asked if I could sit down with them and their son and talk...we sat with the little one in hopes it would make it more reasl to them how bad she really was. We sat down and I explained to them the conditions in which they were supposed to live and what was being deprived and tried to relate it to what it would be like for necessitites like that being deprived of them and their son...but not be able to tell someone they were sick or in pain. I looked at the little boy and asked if he wanted this Sophie to get better and if he did...she would really need to come home with me...at least for a while. I would help her get better, take her to the vet, feed her really well and make sure she was healthy and when his parents could get the cage setup the way they needed to...she could home and be healthy for him. I wanted to take the other one too...but the parents wouldn't go for it...I did however manage to take the female with me for now. I will continue to go there and keep tabs on the male and bring him dubias from my collection...because I guess she is buying their greens with some kind of state food program not cash. So I have offered to feed him dubias out of my colony at least for now to make sure he is helathy and keep tabs on his wounds. The humidity in his tank though I am not sure what to tell them about. It was up to 22 today and the room was at 37 with 2 portable humififiers going that I brought them to use last night. Any thoughts there???
As for the females again...here are some pics
Again 17 1/2 inches - 270 grams...ooh and I did find out that the knuckle head husband decided to spring for 3 pinkies about 6-7 weeks ago to try and fatten her back up and gave them to her all in one day. I brought her home and gave her a nice long warm soak in the tub for about 20 minutes a massaged her belly. Small bowel movement...but not much! I put her in her new big cage all by herself and when she stood up her belly is huge...I can't tell if she is bloated or pregnant. I felt for eggs and felt nothing. This poor thing...my husband walked in on me crying and said "great...did we just go from breeding to breeding and a rescue center and laughed at me...don't forget your medical bag dragon lady he said" The funny thing is...I caught him in there right after me checking her temps and making sure she was ok too lol
Anyway here are the pics...I know if anyone can help all of you can
Thanks so much everyone!!!

If the pics don't come up...I will include the photobucket link to the album....

http://s303.photobucket.com/albums/nn158/mslevoy/Rescue Dragon/

Link

She is very underweight, her tail is nothing but a stick...and her arms and legs no better. The fatty deposites behind the eyes are concave, they should bulge out a little in a healthy weighted dragon.

Since she is in your care now, give her plenty of food, all she can eat salads, insects once or twice a day, dusted with calcium daily and a multi vitamin once a week.

Fecal and vet check as soon as you can as well.

I don't think there is any real concern about the three pinky mice she ate over a month ago. If they caused a problem, it would have been apparent within a day of eating them.

Feeding all she can eat in a day with proper UVB etc, will get her back up to a healthy weight in a month or two...since her appetite is so good. Definitely weigh her regularly so you can track weight gain/loss as well.

In addition to the roaches you have, offer silkworms, superworms, hornworms and crickets, to give her the best variety. Butterworms are good as well. With the exception of the superworms, these worms are easier to digest and have high levels of water so it will help keep her hydrated.

For the male, it is possible the mouth injury could be from rubbing the cage..or it may be a bite from the female. Toes can be caused by her as well.

The humidity in the cage though low, really isn't a major issue. The missing UVB bulb is much more a problem and that male will deteriorate in time as well, if they don't splurge for a proper UVB bulb...if they live where it is still in the 70's F, they should at least take him outside for an hour several times a week.
-----
PHLdyPayne

One more thing I forgot...you asked about the age. She is about 2 years old and by the looks of her...could be a beautiful dragon with her color. I also noticed just now looking at her and petting her...you can see her spine all the way down her back too

She is definately on the thin side - i have seen a lot worse, so i suspect with proper care and medical treatment of any parasites etc that she will likely gain weight and make a full recovery

Definately get her checked out by a vet asap and have a fecal sample checked as well.

As for the humidity in their tank - do they have a water dish in there?
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

It's a very small water dish and they only leave it in for a few hours in the morning because they said they male keeps tipping it over before anything is drank. I suggested misting a few times a day during shedding especially and bathing at least twice week until she is sure he is hydrated properly.
What do you think about those little bumps near her hind legs? Bones sticking out or those calcium deposits? It almost looks as though they are about to come through - it is heart wrenching. And if she is pregnant....oh goodness I just can't even think about it! They didn't even know whether they were using calcium with or without D3 GRRRRRR! They said it came a while back with an order of insects and they didn't recall....no record keeping at all of where they even get their feeders - my head was spinning!!!!

Those are her hip bones. It is from being malnurished. They should start to disappear with a good diet. Really that whole are should be covered.

One thing that has been getting me thinking is that she said the UVB light blew a couple of months ago? UVB lights are normally dispossed of well before they ever die. I wonder how old the light actually was.

As for being pregnant. Her being with a male is totally possible. You may want to contact your vet and get a liquid calcium. Just for the first week or two. It will get into her system much quicker and more effieciently.

Good Luck

Ernie
-----
www.midnightdragons.net

They are definately hip bones - poor little girl She should do much better now she is in a better home.

For humidity for the male - a larger, low, heavy water dish will help - this will prevent him from tipping it over. Ceramic dog dishes work well for this purpose. Of course misting helps, and if its really an issue, covering part of the screen lid with a towel can help too (not too much - dont want to over do it, or kill the ventilation)

A good sized water dish and light mistings have always worked just fine for me to keep humidity at an appropriate level.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

Update:
I have done the unthinkable...
I went back there today after their son got out of school to feed their male some more dubias and make sure his toes and mouth were alright...they hadn't been touched. It made me wonder more how long things were really neglected if I had left them the stuff and they still weren't using it.
I sat down with them again and asked what it would take for their son to let me take these 2 dragons permanently...but he couldn't bare to part with them. But I just couldn't bare to leave him behind or bring her back to get sick all over again once she manages to overcome God knows what is wrong with her. I asked if they had any plans for a UV light for him and they weren't sure when.
I said to their son that sometimes Santa is really good to little girls and boys who think of helpless little animals that need extra attention because they are sick. Knowing they are are in financial ruins...the parents are looking at me like I had 3 heads. I said is there something you really want Santa to bring you for Christmas. He said he really wanted an IPod touch. I cringed...almost $300 for the one he wanted. I could tell the parents were getting annoyed because there was no way they could afford this. So then I said...well I happen to have a friend who knows Santa. Maybe you and your parents should talk it over and if you were willing to give the dragons to me to take care of from now on so they can be healthy all the time...Santa could give you an early Christmas present and I just nodded at the parents and smiled so that they knew I would take care of it. I told him he could come visit them when ever he wanted to but they would be healthy and have lots of room to play and go outside in the summer and Santa would be so proud of him. He asked if I would go talk to Santa about it...so off to Target I went and almost $300 later returned with a wrapped Christmas present signed from Santa saying thank you from him and all the reindeer for being so good to animals. He was so proud of himself...the parents couldn't thank me enough for getting it but I was just happy to be getting the male out of there. I had my husband meet me to pick up the cage and as we started to take it...he noticed that the wood had mold starting on it...so we just told them we didn't need it and got a new one. I thought my husband was going to choke me with Christmas around the corner...Ipod touch, new cage and 2 more dragons to feed and nurse back to health vet bills now. But I believe in Karma and there is no way I could have left them there...I was happy and they were happy in the end without the added expense and with their son getting an expensive gift they wouldn't have been able to afford!
Now let's just hope I can get this female back in the health she needs to be.
Any thoughts on a monthly pinkie at this point yet...just in case she may be pregnant?
Thanks again everyone...you are all great!!!

Wow that's great they get to stay with you.

I'm not a pinkie advocate. They are high in fat and I feel it's better to feed an underweight dragon more of better food than fatty food. The best bug is crickets for putting good weight on. I know we all hate crickets but they have no hard shell, are very nutritious when properly gutloaded, and cheap in bulk. The only downside is some dragons lose their taste for them. But, in my experience most underweight dragons are happy to gobble the up.

I also recommend Hornworms, and Silkworms for their moisture content. Greatlakeshornworm.com is a great source.

Yeah, I have to agree with BLDVR I don't advocate the use of pinkies.

However, I think that the best thing to feed to add weight is Hornworms. You will notice a definante change in the dragons poop. I may seem a bit runny as there body adjusts to extra liquid content of them. But, they can add serious healthy weight fast.

Ernie
-----
www.midnightdragons.net

Yesterday I noticed the top of her back, where her 2 bones are at the top of her front legs (similiar to a shoulder bone I guess)...it appears to be bumped there as well and it looks almost like there may be a little blood under the skin near both of those bumps. The spots are not getting any bigger or moving, but they are making me nervous. She doesn't seem to mind being touched there either...although she has mostly slept since I brought her home. Has anyone ever had a rescue with that problem or so underweight, that those bones were showing as well with or without those red marks under the skin. No bone has broken through yet...
they do not seem to be as pronounced as her 2 hip bones, I didn't even really notice it until she lift herself up to bask a bit under her light. That is also when I noticed the red color under the skin.
I called the vet and took her in for an emergency visit, he was useless. He did a fecal and said she had no parasites and appears to just be very malnourished and in need of some TLC and UV lighting. That was it! He had nothing to say about the other 2 bones where it looks like there may be blood???

Anyone have any ideas what this could be or has anyone seen this before? I really hope I can save her....it breaks my heart watching like this.

Don't worry about the redness around the bone projections..that most likely are just underlying blood vessels etc or just skin pigmentation. Worry about getting him eating daily to put on weight. He will die of starvation and malnutrition long before his bones start poking right through his skin.

Concentrate on getting his environment to perfect conditions, keep it simple and practical (basking spot,good basking range for him to choose from, UVB light, healthy well gut loaded insects/crickets, healthy greens.)

There is no magic injection a vet can give to make your dragon put on weight really fast. With no internal parasite problems, that is good...all you need to do is get him to put on weight. Feed insects several times a day, all he will eat in a 5-10 min period, allow him access to greens all day. Dust with calcium D3 once a day, a multivitame powder once a week.

Offer crickets of the appropriate size who have been well cut loaded, also offer some silkworms, hornworms, butterworms for variety and to keep him hydrated.

Buy a good digital gram scale (from most kitchen departments you can get these, good for 1gram increments or better (some are .1 gram and measure up to several kgs). Weigh your dragon once a week, record his weight...and you should notice a weight gain. It can take months to get him up to an idea weight.
-----
PHLdyPayne