Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have had two savannah monitors in my life time and i am now getting another one. The person who i may possibly be getting one from told me today that they do not need uva or uvb lighting. I have always given uvb. It was to my understanding that any diurnal lizard ( bearded dragons, iguanas, water dragons etc) need uvb lighting or D3 to allow them to metabolize calcium. At the pet store i work at we have a male red ackie, and he needs uvb. So what do any of you think about this? Any help would be nice.

Thanks
Kyle with Kyle's Reptyles
www.freewebs.com/kyleherp/

>>I have had two savannah monitors in my life time and i am now getting another one. The person who i may possibly be getting one from told me today that they do not need uva or uvb lighting. I have always given uvb. It was to my understanding that any diurnal lizard ( bearded dragons, iguanas, water dragons etc) need uvb lighting or D3 to allow them to metabolize calcium. At the pet store i work at we have a male red ackie, and he needs uvb. So what do any of you think about this? Any help would be nice.
>>
>>Thanks
>>Kyle with Kyle's Reptyles
>>www.freewebs.com/kyleherp/
The jury is still out on the UVB issue. Many keepers of monitors do not use it, and have a great amount of success at breeding and raising very healthy animals.

What they really need to metabolize calcium is heat. A hot basking area of 130 f will do the trick just fine. I'm sure UVB has some sort of benefit and it could not hurt to use it though, the person with the sav is correct, it is not absolutely necessary.

Ok, so it is not just with the savannahs, it is with all types of monitors? And i would assume that i will still has to sup. with a calcium power every so often if i do not use the uva and uvb lights?
Thanks
Kyle with Kyle's Reptyles
www.freewebs.com/kyleherp/

>>Ok, so it is not just with the savannahs, it is with all types of monitors? And i would assume that i will still has to sup. with a calcium power every so often if i do not use the uva and uvb lights?
>>Thanks
>>Kyle with Kyle's Reptyles
>>www.freewebs.com/kyleherp/

I personally think that UVB is a very good idea with Savannahs. Why would we give UVB to so many monitor species but decide it is not "needed" for a Savannah? They may live without it but that does not exclude the fact that they may need it. A thing to consider with Savannah is that they have long term health issues that shorten their lives greatly. They need to get real hot to metabolize what they are eating. This means a good basking spot around 120 F. If they don't they tend to get fat and get fatty liver which kills them quite nicely. Savannahs like to eat and the keeper must make sure to keep them hot and cut back their fat and caloric intake as they mature. A fat obese Savannah is NOT good! They are sun worshippers just like Beardies and such. SO, they enjoy UVB for sure and benefit from it raising their D3 levels which is critical for calcium absorbtion ect. The D3 effect also seems to help people feel good and stay motivated, this may also put your lizard in a better state of mind by offering it. So, UVB such as a TREX bulb or a ZOO MED is a VERY good idea if you want to be successful long term keeping them. They may be able to live without but they will face greater health challenges without it and as he said, keep them HOT!!!!

Limit Carbohydrates and fat..... no crappy dog or cat food and NO RAW meat without first blasting it in the microwave!

But what do I know, I am after all SATAN and this could just be another one of my ploys to lure the human soul away from GOOD into the path of EVIL with Reptiles eventually owning their keepers!

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Any benefit, if you choose to use UV lighting then use it carefully, it can cause more problems than it can be of any benefit.
The only UV lights that actually produce whats considered usable spectrum for reptiles do so at distances of 3-6 inches or closer, the lights also have warnings not to place them within 6 inches or closer, what does this tell you?
I tried UV bulbs, black lights, regular flourescent bulbs, red bulbs, and even rigged a small incandescent light to try to immitate the heat output of a flourescent bulb. I had the same results from every setup and every group of lizards contained. These lizards were all fed insects, some were carnivorous, and/or veggie and fruits (depends on species while trying this). My conclusion was that the heat output (yes flourescents get alot warmer than most people think) is what actually benefited the lizards (they preferred to bask on the light assemblies).
A good friend had a reptile rescue I helped with, he never once used UV bulbs but rehabbed many thousands of reptiles (hundreds that I helped with) with normal household incandescent bulbs, all of these had growth problems, calcium and vitamin deficiancies, etc, all were kept by their former owners under new UV bulbs every 3-6 months, except very few.
The main issue with bosc monitors is that owners usually overfeed them, do not think for themselves and adjust for the lizards needs, and or do not provide them with what it takes to burn the fat off safely in their environments. fatty liver disorder happens when an overweight reptile goes on a fast.
Years ago I had a discussion with Sam Sweet about lightbulbs and what can actually be of any use to them. He had a great post about light intensity and how it affects monitor lizards. The light intensities represented were what actually made any differences in their behaviors. But light intensities among Mercury vapor bulbs still were nowhere near what the sun produces at ground level even at the time it has started to go below the horizon.
If you want to use UV by all means do so, but realize that it has no real proven benefit to them, but used incorrectly can cause many problems.
I would rely more on Miner-all or some other good calcium /D3 supplement to add occasionally to their diets,

Well, you're the obvious MONITOR GOD!!!

I use them and LIKE THEM!!!!! I notice that my monitors like to soak it up. In my opinion it is not just the heat that they are enjoying.

I believe in it and KNOW that my Tokay Geckos even like it!!

I have seen animals that were a mess without it and providing UVB and calcium pulled them out of certain death.

Us little people need all the help we can get when we are taking care of the average monitor and UVB seems to be a benefit and I have yet to see ANY detriment to their use!!! I have seen negative effect without them.

I of course don't just rely on reading other people's studies and try to make some personal decisions.

And I do have TAME monitors that do more than just tolerate you!

SATAN

>>Any benefit, if you choose to use UV lighting then use it carefully, it can cause more problems than it can be of any benefit.
>>The only UV lights that actually produce whats considered usable spectrum for reptiles do so at distances of 3-6 inches or closer, the lights also have warnings not to place them within 6 inches or closer, what does this tell you?
>>I tried UV bulbs, black lights, regular flourescent bulbs, red bulbs, and even rigged a small incandescent light to try to immitate the heat output of a flourescent bulb. I had the same results from every setup and every group of lizards contained. These lizards were all fed insects, some were carnivorous, and/or veggie and fruits (depends on species while trying this). My conclusion was that the heat output (yes flourescents get alot warmer than most people think) is what actually benefited the lizards (they preferred to bask on the light assemblies).
>>A good friend had a reptile rescue I helped with, he never once used UV bulbs but rehabbed many thousands of reptiles (hundreds that I helped with) with normal household incandescent bulbs, all of these had growth problems, calcium and vitamin deficiancies, etc, all were kept by their former owners under new UV bulbs every 3-6 months, except very few.
>>The main issue with bosc monitors is that owners usually overfeed them, do not think for themselves and adjust for the lizards needs, and or do not provide them with what it takes to burn the fat off safely in their environments. fatty liver disorder happens when an overweight reptile goes on a fast.
>>Years ago I had a discussion with Sam Sweet about lightbulbs and what can actually be of any use to them. He had a great post about light intensity and how it affects monitor lizards. The light intensities represented were what actually made any differences in their behaviors. But light intensities among Mercury vapor bulbs still were nowhere near what the sun produces at ground level even at the time it has started to go below the horizon.
>>If you want to use UV by all means do so, but realize that it has no real proven benefit to them, but used incorrectly can cause many problems.
>>I would rely more on Miner-all or some other good calcium /D3 supplement to add occasionally to their diets,
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

If you read my responce.
After discussions years ago about them a few of us that participated on this forum and a few others tried our own version of a test of UV bulbs and compared them to several types of bulb.
I personally used beardies, monitors, and geckos for my version of the test. All species of lizard reacted the same way in all collections that this was tried with.
You know, again something FR said to many people, try it for yourself, and learn what happens then you know and dont have to believe what someone else says. Over the years Ive tried UV, and many other tricks.
Also years ago I ordered equipment and supplies for a reptile based business a good friend had. The distribiters we used to buy bulbs from to sell in his petstore all sold UV bulbs to us for regular bulb prices ($1.99-$7.99) the bulbs already had prices labeled on them to sell at retail prices ($6.99-$27.99 or more). The distribuiters all agreed that the bulbs are purely made as a profit making supply for the petstores to get consistant return customers.
If someone wants to use these bulbs, by all means knock yourself out. Those who want to learn for themselves try comparing them to other bulbs that are equivalent in temperature output in identical caging and conditions.
I would rather take stock in an accurate study done over many years or from long time keepers than by information from those who benefit from the sale of the product in question. Maybe thats why reptile businesses run by keeper that care about the animals dont last very long.
Ive seen reptiles with eye problems over long term from the rescue, these reptiles were kept with UV bulbs. Ive seen way too many reptiles with calcium deficiancies, and growth issues that were kept religiously under new UV bulbs by their former owners. These lizards (as long as they were not too far gone) recovered in such a hurry in very basic caging in a rescue with no UV bulbs, most probably better heat sources, better food, caging, etc.
What did the most sucessful reptile keepers and breeders use before those bulbs were sold? Normal incandescent household bulbs.
Its a free country use what you want to.

There are plenty of problems with what FR has said. Take your own advice and find out for yourself.

UVB has shown to show small or little benefit when utilized properly. Whether it's needed or not isn't known for sure. Monitors kept under UVB have been shown to produce D3 and no matter what you claim, that vitamin is necessary for the animals (even human beings) to utilize calcium. You can keep them under UVB, provide it in the diet, or do both. All of the above has shown to work.

"There are plenty of problems with what FR has said"

To quantify this, what proof do you have to demonstrate? I dont know of anyone who can demonstrate better what is needed, or used best by monitors in captivity than FR.

"Take your own advice and find out for yourself."

Exactly what Ive been saying, exactly what I tell others, if you dont believe it, then put it to the test. Ive been there and done that, and posted the results over the years. My monitors, and the other reptiles I kept over the years, along with thousands of other keepers have demonstrated this. Now do some thinking, and take some initiative, and try for yourself, back up what you say with results.

"UVB has shown to show small or little benefit when utilized properly"

Yes, and whole animal prey items have shown far better results, as well using an occasional dusting of calcium/D3 on insects/veggies/fruits with other than carnivores. So far UV bulbs have not demonstrated any benefit with reptiles kept even close to correctly in captivity.
You are exactly correct, small or little benefit at all.

"Monitors kept under UVB have been shown to produce D3 and no matter what you claim"

Where, or who has demonstrated this? The only testing I know of that was done used desert iguanas and I mentioned the test above. The UV bulbs produced the lowest amount of D3 in the blood stream next to those kept in constant darkness with no D3 added to their diet, and a diet that was devoid of what would be considered a better source of vegetation, but where kept warm enough at the same time.

"You can keep them under UVB, provide it in the diet, or do both. All of the above has shown to work."

The diet has shown results, and the use of or lack of UV bulbs have shown the same results, but be forwarned that animals kept under UV incorrectly over many years (from long term captives)have shown problems with eye damage, blindness, cancer, etc.
So yes, if you want to use it (as I have said a thousand times) do so, but make sure that it is kept at a distance enough to not cause problems, as the manufacturers tell you.

I know Frank and KNOW he knows his stuff!

I have not read what he says about UVB but I get the jist of it.

I like it, it seems to work and benefit my animals so I will use it. I have not noticed any eye problems what-so-ever!

I believe in using Calcium with D3 ALL DAY LONG TOO!

Time to go look at an Albino Dragon..

SATAN

I >>If you read my responce.
>>After discussions years ago about them a few of us that participated on this forum and a few others tried our own version of a test of UV bulbs and compared them to several types of bulb.
>>I personally used beardies, monitors, and geckos for my version of the test. All species of lizard reacted the same way in all collections that this was tried with.
>>You know, again something FR said to many people, try it for yourself, and learn what happens then you know and dont have to believe what someone else says. Over the years Ive tried UV, and many other tricks.
>>Also years ago I ordered equipment and supplies for a reptile based business a good friend had. The distribiters we used to buy bulbs from to sell in his petstore all sold UV bulbs to us for regular bulb prices ($1.99-$7.99) the bulbs already had prices labeled on them to sell at retail prices ($6.99-$27.99 or more). The distribuiters all agreed that the bulbs are purely made as a profit making supply for the petstores to get consistant return customers.
>>If someone wants to use these bulbs, by all means knock yourself out. Those who want to learn for themselves try comparing them to other bulbs that are equivalent in temperature output in identical caging and conditions.
>>I would rather take stock in an accurate study done over many years or from long time keepers than by information from those who benefit from the sale of the product in question. Maybe thats why reptile businesses run by keeper that care about the animals dont last very long.
>>Ive seen reptiles with eye problems over long term from the rescue, these reptiles were kept with UV bulbs. Ive seen way too many reptiles with calcium deficiancies, and growth issues that were kept religiously under new UV bulbs by their former owners. These lizards (as long as they were not too far gone) recovered in such a hurry in very basic caging in a rescue with no UV bulbs, most probably better heat sources, better food, caging, etc.
>>What did the most sucessful reptile keepers and breeders use before those bulbs were sold? Normal incandescent household bulbs.
>>Its a free country use what you want to.
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

"I know Frank and KNOW he knows his stuff!

I have not read what he says about UVB but I get the jist of it."

Don't his monitors live outside a good chunk of the year in the AZ desert where UVB is abundant?

"The only UV lights that actually produce whats considered usable spectrum for reptiles do so at distances of 3-6 inches or closer"

I'm assuming you did very close scientific studies and used a Solar Meter to measure and prove this statement? If not, then you're speaking from your rear.

Yes , as a matter of fact a good friend has a solarmeter, and others who have used them, as well the use of equipment not usually associated with the normal public in private collections have proven this.
If you read the internet forums with the UV meter fanatic people you would think that these bulbs are the "be all and end all" of reptile husbandry. The problem with that is simple, these people have no experience with keeping reptiles sucessfully, or for long term, so what does that tell you?
There is a difference between those who "do or have done something", and those who "talk about doing something".
Keep in mind that Ive tried this stuff, and demonstrated what works with real live reptiles over more years than some people in this forum have been alive.

You all make these riddiculous claims based on what? Some garbage you read on this forum? Then, you actually become offended when someone disputes them ha ha ha.

I don't care what anyone says, the fact of the matter, is there simply is no conclusive evidence either confirming or denying any benefit to the use of UVB. Untill there actually is, the argument is moot and the use of full spectrum lighting is purely a matter of personal preference. There are enough long time keepers out there successfully hatching and raising monitors without the use of UVB for me to feel perfectly fine about not using it myself.

On the other side of the coin, many European keepers use it and swear by it. I've never heard reports of any eye problems or any of the other afore mentioned issues coming from any of them.

Satan, how much would you say NERD profits from the sale of those UVB bulbs in a year?

Disclaimer: This post is not directed towards any one person or group.

It's funny how passionate we can get when it comes down to our personal beliefs & preferrences.

Let me begin with my personal view and then I'll follow up with a couple of links to previous UVB discussions on this forum.

I, persoanlly, can only address the UVB issue in referrence to Savannah Monitors, Nile Monitors and Bearded Dragons. That's the limit of my experience with UVB and reptiles.

As far as I know there aren't any scientific studies that prove or disprove the need for UVB among monitors & beardies. There is a popular study posted on a UK website in which they claim that their test "seem to indicate the need for UVB" (paraphrased) but it does not "prove" the need for it.

I had no previous lizard experience before I began keeping monitors & then beardies. I have raised 3 beardies from hatchlings to adulthood without UVB and without any of the problems some associate with the lack of UVB. I even used UVB for 6 months with one of these beardies to see if it could/would make a difference. It did not make a difference in the beardie's health, growth, attitude, or anything else that I could see.

When feeding my monitors and/or beardies prey items that do not have bones (calcium) I periodically dust the prey with a clacium product that has vitamin D3 in it. It appears to have worked just fine for them as I've not had any issues.

I personally know a lady that had absolutely no previous exotic animal experience whatsoever. Nothing other than cats & dogs. I told this lady all about the UVB claims in a non-biased manner. I told her how I raised mine but told her that she might ought to get a UVB light because I feel that it does appear to be a "bandaid", of sort, to some husbandry issues. She chose not to and she has succesfully raised 2 generations of beardies without UVB.

Most of the successful monitor breeders/keepers that I know of on this forum and a few other popular forums do not use UVB. Or, so they say. For the record - I don't think that I agree with 100% of any particular breeder or keeper's techniques, beliefs, etc, so I am not a blind follower of anyone or anything. I've got a mind of my own. I know how to research, experiment, and come to my own conclusions.

Roger (sidbarvin) said, "...the fact of the matter, is there simply is no conclusive evidence either confirming or denying any benefit to the use of UVB."

I made an almost identical statement a year ago in another UVB discusiion here. Roger, not to put words in your mouth, but knowing you, I think you're thinking along the same lines as I was. That line was/is - there aren't any "scientific studies" proving or disproving the need for UVB. I firmly agree & believe this. In the thread I made my statement in Frank Retes (FR) said that his many years & many generations of monitor breeding is indeed proof that UVB is not needed. Here's the link to that thread: forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1444152,1444152&key=2007

Here is another UVB discussion thread: forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1272702,1272702&key=2007

There are many more discussions, debates, on the topic that can be found by searching these forums. They will give anyone willing to take the time to search for them quite a variety of opinions from a variety of people. I strongly encourage people to take the time to read previous discussions on the matter rather than just accept a few opinions from a few people, which is about all you're gonna get from one posted question at any given time.

Roger, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that there were some eye problems with Bearded Dragons that some people were contributing to the use of some mercury vapor bulbs a few years ago. I don't know if it was the strength of the UVB rays or the light's intensity that caused those problems but I do remember seeing several posts on a few Bearded Dragon forums about it.

By the way, Roger - Good post. Thanks for giving me the chance to jump in without being offensive to anyone.

Let me sum up my personal thoughts, beliefs: I believe that if a keeper does what they're supposed to be doing (have good husbandry and an ability to interpret their captive's actions & reactions) there is no need for UVB lighting.

Earlier I said that I feel that UVB is a type of "bandaid" to one's husbandry. It does appear to aid poor husbandry. Actually, I think FR addressed this quite well in the fist link I posted above. UVB seems to mask or hide poor husbandry. I'd rather see the signs of my poor husbandry so I can make the necessary adjustment instead of hiding them.

I do feel that it's important to mention that there are some reports of calcium overdosing among animals kept with UVB lighting. This is the flip-side of the coin from a calcium deficiency among non UVB users. It's also worth noting that calcium deficiency does occur even when UVB is used. I interpret all of that as being husbandry related, not a UVB issue.

Ya'll behave yourselves!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I agree with you, and have been saying this all along. If you choose to use them, go right ahead, but no real benefit has ever been demonstrated.
In well over 20 plus years Ive kept reptiles, in that time the UV bulb was added to market as a profit making device for petstores, not all that long ago really.
In that time I can tell you that the people who defend its benefits are (with very few exceptions, as demonstrated in this discussion) newer and inexperienced, or not so knowledgeable keepers who do not know any better, or those who sell the bulbs. In this discussion the only keeper who has defended the use of them, and has any sucess or experience has been Evilmorphgod.
This discussion has occured with these same results every few months here and elsewhere for many years.

.....there are a number of long time, successfull keepers with consistent breeding success in Europe and Australia using them. Unfortunately, they do not frequent this particular forum to explain their take on the issue.

Worldwide who use them, and who dont use them. A big number of long time sucessful breeders and keepers didnt use them before, and most still dont use them.
I remember when I had stopped in the first exotics petstore that I ever saw those bulbs for sale years ago. An employee asked me if I have any of these bulbs in my lizards cages, I asked him if any of their cages had the bulbs in use. The answer in both cases was no.
I think of it this way, use them if you choose to. But I have never seen any need for them, nor have I seen any benefit from them when comparing any other household bulb in their place.

Yeah, Roger. And aren't European varanid keepers considered to be a hell of a lot more successful than the US keepers?

>>You all make these riddiculous claims based on what? Some garbage you read on this forum? Then, you actually become offended when someone disputes them ha ha ha.
>>
>>I don't care what anyone says, the fact of the matter, is there simply is no conclusive evidence either confirming or denying any benefit to the use of UVB. Untill there actually is, the argument is moot and the use of full spectrum lighting is purely a matter of personal preference. There are enough long time keepers out there successfully hatching and raising monitors without the use of UVB for me to feel perfectly fine about not using it myself.
>>
>>On the other side of the coin, many European keepers use it and swear by it. I've never heard reports of any eye problems or any of the other afore mentioned issues coming from any of them.
>>
>>Satan, how much would you say NERD profits from the sale of those UVB bulbs in a year?

NERD not a bit...... NERD does not sell them.

I have a retail store and we sell them there so we have profits there. I am not saying I like UVB for that reason...in fact I wish I did not have to use them or like them. They are not cheap and fairly easy to damage!!!

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

>>Ok, so it is not just with the savannahs, it is with all types of monitors? And i would assume that i will still has to sup. with a calcium power every so often if i do not use the uva and uvb lights?
>>Thanks
>>Kyle with Kyle's Reptyles
>>www.freewebs.com/kyleherp/

UVA is just for heat and ambient light..... it is not the same spectrum as UVB which has lots more of the yellow and red spectrum in it.

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Don't waste your money.