Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have posted in the past about my rescued savy in the past with good results. Some background info. The savy is about a little over 3 feet long and is unknown age but is believed to be older. He came to me with many scars and some healing burns from improper care from previous owner. He got a slight burn on his back right now because he dug a burrow and built up the dirt and got to close to the light before I realized. It is healing nicely and been being treated. But a problem has risen he has been loosing weight his apitite was decreasing but the vet said he was fine. Now he has stopped eaten completely and is getting very skinny and not looking good and with the holidays the vet is swamped. He is in a 8 feet long by 2 feet wide by 2.5 feet high cage with dirt substrate basking temp is close to 140 and air goes down to 80. Any ideas of what to do would be great. I thought maybe he is just getting older cause i dont know his age any other ideas because he isnt looking good. I tried cutting the rat up to get him more enticed to feed cause it worked when i first got him but not working I am lucky if I can get him to eat one 3-4 inch rat in a week now. Any advice?
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Tom
1.2.0 Leopard Gecko (dot, spot, casper)
0.0.1 California King Snake (booboo)
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoise (tank)
0.0.2 Russian Tortoise (tito and lulu)
0.0.2 Red Ear Sliders (bernie and ernie)
0.0.3 Painted Turtles (larry, curly and moe)
0.0.1 Western Soft shell (Squirt)
2.2.0 Bearded Dragon (marshmellow,Bubba,Sparkles,Alfredo )
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor (beef)
1.0.0 Peachfront Conure (kermit)
0.1.0 Love Bird ( KIKI )
1.1.0 Dog (layla and Rosco)
2.1.0 Crazy Cats (babe, sabastian, tinkerbell)
0.1.0 Lion Head Rabbit (daisy)
0.1.2 Ferret (jordan RIP, Cosmo and Izzy)
0.2.0 Guinea Pigs (lilly and petunia)
0.0.1 White Tree Frog (dumpy jr.)
0.0.2 Fire Belly Newts (spork and blaze)
0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad (ferdinan)
0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt ( red)
0.0.2 Bull Frogs (goliath and tubby)
0.0.1 Spectacled caiman (wilbert)
0.0.3 Green Anoles
1.0.0 Bahama Anole
0.0.1 Giant Millipede
Lots Of Fish

Tom,
If you're Vet is a qualified herp Vet and you're having trouble getting a quick appointment, I would take the sav, a recent fecal sample (if possible) and be at the Vet's office when they open the door within the next day or two. I'd stress my concerns of the severity of it's condition and tell them you're going to wait right there until they work you into their schedule that day.

There are many possible causes for it's current condition and it sounds as if there's not enough time to play the guessing game. Based on what you've said I suspect an internal issue, some kind of internal infection, or possibly even parasitic. However, there are sooo many other things that it could be.

It's been my experience that healthy solitary monitors (not paired up with a mate) can go more than a month without food and losing very little, if any, weight. That's why I say a Vet visit is in order.

Between now & the Vet visit I would make sure it's not dehydrated (soak it periodically) and make sure the cage humidity levels are where they should be. You also might want to inspect it's mouth to look for discoloration, injury, loose or lost teeth, etc...

Keep us posted, please.

Best wishes!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

"If you're Vet is a qualified herp Vet..."

Oops! That should've been; "If your Vet is..."

Sorry!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

[make sure it's not dehydrated (soak it periodically)]

HH-would soaking in water be enough, if it's that far gone, or should he use pedialite in the water? If so, what ratio?

"would soaking in water be enough, if it's that far gone, or should he use pedialite in the water? If so, what ratio?

I honestly don't know for sure, Susan. I'm not that familiar with the use, pro or con, of Pedialite in situations like this. Thinking about it, in theory, it sounds like a good idea. Though I wonder how much of Pedialite's ingredients (chemicals, vitamins, nutrients) are actually able to be of benefit through soaking. No claims, disputes or assumptions from me on that. Maybe I'll learn more about it from this discussion. If you know more about it I'd love to objectively hear (read) it.

Not to cause panic, but to realize the broad possibilities and point out the need for a good herp Vet's persoanl evaluation, the symptoms described and the guesstimated age appears to me to be pretty much par for the course, a fairly common, recurring, grim situation.

I believe that extended periods of stress, dehydration, obesity, insufficient food quality, etc, can lead to permanent organ damage & failure. And these are only a few of the many other possibilities.

I'm sorry - I didn't mean to drift away from the Pedialite question, which is a good question.

I think soaking in water or Pedialite could possibly turn the situation around, but, on the other hand, it could just temporarily ease some discomfort and/or buy a tad more time. The latter is the reason I mentioned it.

Tom,
* What was the monitor's weight (size) before this situation? Skinny, obese, appropriate, etc...?
* What was it's best eating habits and how long did it keep up those habits?
* How much weight/size loss has occured over how long of a period?
* Has it been active or inactive, during good feeding habits & recently?

I hope you're sitting in a Vet's office right this minute, or at least planning on being there Friday. Please don't wait for answers or suggestions from any one of us forum members. The discussions can be beneficial to us all but at the moment your monitor sounds as if it needs more than a forum discussion.

Catch ya'll later!
Mike
(HH)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

[If you know more about it I'd love to objectively hear (read) it.]

I've never used it, but have heard some of the experienced breeder/keepers suggest it (not sure if it was on here or rz).

I was hoping to hear from someone who's actually had success using it.

"...experienced breeder/keepers..."

Well, we all know that excludes me.

Wait a minute,...... I AM an experienced breeder/keeper, per se. I have successfully bred hostility among my monitors with my experience of barely keepin' 'em alive with poor husbandry & keepin' 'em in too small of a cage.

Just goes to show that you can't trust one's "experience." It doesn't matter how long someone has been doing it if they've been doing it wrong the whole time. Hahahaha!!!

Seriously, though - if you end up digging for some info on the Pedialite thing, either post it here or please at least send me a link to what you find. I'd appreciate it as you've piqued my curiousity on it.

Later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

[Wait a minute,...... I AM an experienced breeder/keeper, per se. I have successfully bred hostility among my monitors with my experience of barely keepin' 'em alive with poor husbandry & keepin' 'em in too small of a cage.]

Very funny Mike. BTW- I didn't mean to imply 'you' aren't an experience keeper.
If I find out anything of interest, I'll pass it along

I'm curious as well.

Hope it never happens here, but curious nonetheless.
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Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey
------------------------------------------------------------>>>>>>>>>>
1.0.0 Ball Python - Python regius "Cain" Rescued from a crack house
0.1.9 Eastern MilkSnake WC "Carmella" adult super sweet temperment (Eggs all hatched!)
1.3.13 Storeria dekayi - Brown Snakes Casper, Xena, Athena, Copper, Sharon & Kids
0.1.0 Thamnophis cyrtopsis Easter Black Neck Garter "MoJo"
0.2.0 Thamnophis ordinoides - Northwestern Gartersnake(Blue Phase)
1.1.0. Thamnophis elegans vagrans Wandering Garter
2.2.0 Thamnophis Sirtalis - Florida Blue stripe Garter
2.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters
0.0.1 Thamnophis HybridAlbino Checkered Normal eastern"Mutt"
2.0.0 Thamnophis sirtalis - eastern Garters (xtreme orange phase)
1.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Snow Het
0.1.0 Thamnophis RADIX - Christmas Albino
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - Red Phase Eastern Garter red and white stripes
0.0.1 Thamnophis butleriButler's Garter Snake
0.0.4 Thamnophis proximus orariusCoastal Ribbons
0.0.7 Thamnophis sirtalis - Eastern Garter babies 7/11/08
0.0.7 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis HET Anerythristic Scott Felzer stock.
0.1.0 Thamnophis sirtalis Eastern Snow "Snowflake"
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis California Red Sided (R.I.P. little guy)
1.0.0 Thamnophis pickeringi - Puget Sound Garter "Sky" (adult, Sky blue)
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua" adult WC Pink eater!
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Sub-adult CB
1.0.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
1.0.0. ASIAN GREEN SNAKE 3' WC Cyclophiops major"Limon"
0.0.1. Savannah Monitor "CHOMPER" Getting Huge!
1.1.3. Green Anole "Crystal" & "Chris"
0.1.0 Oscar (Astronotus ocellatus) - "Peach" (A Monitor with fins)
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
0.2.0. Feline"Felix"(R.I.P. 4/27/08) "Kaja" & "Silver"
2.1.0. calico RATS
??.??.?? Mice - Feeder farm - Crickets / fish / Giant roaches
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

"BTW- I didn't mean to imply 'you' aren't an experience keeper."

Ha! Ha! I knew that, Susan. I didn't take it that way.

Later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

What is critical is getting him hydrated ASAP if he is dehydrated, which is likely. Letting him soak in 3 inches of warm water in a bathtib will do the trick. Pedialyte might be marginally better than plain water, but who has enough pedialyte to make a bathtub warm soak for a 3-4 foot lizard on a Thursday night? It comes in 1 quart bottles, not cheap. Water is almost as good, and the best is what you can do NOW.

Leslie (former veterinarian)

[What is critical is getting him hydrated ASAP if he is dehydrated, which is likely. Letting him soak in 3 inches of warm water in a bathtib will do the trick.]

Since you're a former vet, I'll ask this question that's been on my mind- If a monitor's skin is supposed to be water tight, how will soaking him do the trick? Do they absorb water sufficiently in ways 'other' than through the skin?

After thinking about this, I remember hearing the only benefit to soaking, was if the animal has stuck shed and 'that' unshed skin would absorb water, but not healthy skin underneath.
I also remember (now my memory has been jogged) someone saying, the only way to rehydrate them effectively, is through them drinking water. I'm looking for the post, but as I recall, it was some scientist person??

" I also remember (now my memory has been jogged) someone saying, the only way to rehydrate them effectively, is through them drinking water. "

That's it , soaking might help to encourage the animals to drink . If they don't drink they will not re - hydrate via soaking . They will die. I've never seen things like pedialite or gatorade or anything else make any difference if the animal is willing to drink . That's the key when talking about hydration the animal has to drink . If the animal drinks on it's own fresh water is all it's needs. If it won't then emergancy measures have to be taken and even then ........not good.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms

[That's it , soaking might help to encourage the animals to drink . If they don't drink they will not re - hydrate via soaking . They will die. I've never seen things like pedialite or gatorade or anything else make any difference if the animal is willing to drink . That's the key when talking about hydration the animal has to drink]

That sounds to me to be a critical point. If it's true, I'd be interested to hear what the 'vet' has to say about it?

Also, (if it's true), would adding gatorade/pedialite to the 'soaking' water, possibly deter them from taking a good drink?

Ernie,
I'm not lookin' to cause friction, just discussion. My question is - if monitors can't absorb water why do they voluntarily soak in their waterbowl when the humidity level is too low?

I can see how their skin appears to be impermeable but their action (or rather, reaction) is puzzling to the point and confuses this ol' hillbilly.

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I believe thet soak in there water to decrease DE-hydration not to RE-hydrate!

Anthony

[I believe thet soak in there water to decrease DE-hydration not to RE-hydrate!]

If their skin is supposed to be water tight, how would it decrease dehydration, 'or' re-hydrate them?
Mine just soak when they're getting ready to shed, or in the process. That would make sense, as maybe their skin feels dry and the water may bring instant releif.

As i stated in my last post, it does nothing to RE-hydrate them...it just helps them from DE-Hydrating! Monitors lose alot of there moisture through the eyes and mouth(breathing). If there in a water bowl (humid) it helps to slow that process down. Make sense?

Anthony

" I'm not lookin' to cause friction, just discussion. My question is - if monitors can't absorb water why do they voluntarily soak in their waterbowl when the humidity level is too low? " HH

Going under the premise that the animal is soaking because the humidity is low . ( debatable ) .

Humidity is an indicator. When the air starts to dry the animals seek moisture for multiple reasons . Soaking could be a method they use to conserve moisture . They drink and sit in the water . Monitors also voluntarily soak when their outside during the rainy season and humidity is at 99.9% . So.......?

What I can say is that when you put a monitor such as Savanna, that is dehydrated but other wise fairly healthy into a tub of water it will drink until it explodes. If it doesn't drink it will soon be dead no matter how long it sits in the water.

" Also, (if it's true), would adding gatorade/pedialite to the 'soaking' water, possibly deter them from taking a good drink? " sdslancs

I definitely think this is a possibility. I would definitely try fresh drinking water first.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

(Sorry for this delayed reply, Ernie.)

"Going under the premise that the animal is soaking because the humidity is low . ( debatable ) ."

To some extent I can understand it being questionable. In a raise-up tank I try to keep various areas somewhat moist. As long as I stay on top of it the monitor(s) don't get in the waterbowl. If I don't continue to add moisture periodically the substrate begins to dry out and the next thin I know there's a monitor in the waterbowl. Mist the areas & a lil' while later they're out of the bowl. That's what I base my assumption, my behavior interpretation, on.

Granted, I don't sit & observe them for hours while they're in the waterbowl but I've never seen them drink while in it. In fact, I've never seen any of my monitors drink while being soaked or given baths, but, I don't doubt that an actual dehydrated monitor would. Some of my beardies will.

I should also say that I don't keep a humidity gauge in the cage so I don't have actual humidity level readings telling me if it's low or just right.

"Soaking could be a method they use to conserve moisture ."

I agree with that. Like "agoldreptiles" mentioned in one of his posts, about how being in the water slowing down the loss of internal body fluids that are lost through the eyes, mouth & nostrils. I just can't figure out if it's "the" reason or if it's "part" of the reason.

Not to get off topic, but it's not just a monitor thing - snakes do it, too.

The bottom line is for people to realize the danger that extended dehydration (low humidity) presents to reptiles. Irreversible damage to internal organs that can shorten their lifespan and/or flat out kill them.

Thanks to everyone for a good discussion! I enjoyed it.

Ya'll take care!
Mike
(HH)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Gatorade works too. I know a fella who owns a "reptile specialty shop". He often gets freshly imported monitors, which are usually, in quite bad shap. He actually soaks them in lemon lime gatorade.

This is probably obvious but make sure you rinse the gatorade off, it get's very sticky as it dries. Not good for nasal passages, eyes, etc. when back in the dirt.
Dehydration would cause lack of appetite for sure, Other possiblities include impaction or possible infection, (related to burn-open would?) Vet care may be in order, short of that, tubing may be next if hydration doesn't help. Has the animal defecated recently? Feeding peas are good for a constipated animal should that be the case. Can you feel anything in it's gut. How about some picture of the animal, and it's mouth.

>>[If you know more about it I'd love to objectively hear (read) it.]
>>
>>I've never used it, but have heard some of the experienced breeder/keepers suggest it (not sure if it was on here or rz).
>>
>> I was hoping to hear from someone who's actually had success using it.

I have used Pedilyte with some success with both dehydrated monitor and iguanas. I have seen far faster turn around (when dehydration is the only present issue) with the pedilyte rather than just water. Walgreens here sells a lower suger version that I use. I soak the animal in a rubbermaid with pedilyte and water for about 30 mins. Then I rinse with water. I really dont have a mix level. Usually a quarter of a bottle in the water. I have the animals in a 40 gallon rubbermaid with maybe 3 inchs of water (for a larger monitor/iguana). I monitor the animals the whole time and with iguanas I find them drinking while soaking.
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Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

Land of the Outcasts!

I have been soaking him a couple times a day and last night got him to eat a mouse that I cut up so its a small start.
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Tom
1.2.0 Leopard Gecko (dot, spot, casper)
0.0.1 California King Snake (booboo)
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoise (tank)
0.0.2 Russian Tortoise (tito and lulu)
0.0.2 Red Ear Sliders (bernie and ernie)
0.0.3 Painted Turtles (larry, curly and moe)
0.0.1 Western Soft shell (Squirt)
2.2.0 Bearded Dragon (marshmellow,Bubba,Sparkles,Alfredo )
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor (beef)
1.0.0 Peachfront Conure (kermit)
0.1.0 Love Bird ( KIKI )
1.1.0 Dog (layla and Rosco)
2.1.0 Crazy Cats (babe, sabastian, tinkerbell)
0.1.0 Lion Head Rabbit (daisy)
0.1.2 Ferret (jordan RIP, Cosmo and Izzy)
0.2.0 Guinea Pigs (lilly and petunia)
0.0.1 White Tree Frog (dumpy jr.)
0.0.2 Fire Belly Newts (spork and blaze)
0.0.1 Fire Belly Toad (ferdinan)
0.0.1 Red Spotted Newt ( red)
0.0.2 Bull Frogs (goliath and tubby)
0.0.1 Spectacled caiman (wilbert)
0.0.3 Green Anoles
1.0.0 Bahama Anole
0.0.1 Giant Millipede
Lots Of Fish

I love lemon lime gatorade. mmmm...

>>I love lemon lime gatorade. mmmm...

I just wanted to add if your gonna use gatorade, pink and orange ones stain...
I once knew a pink bearded dragon stained from pink gatorade for a month or so
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

Try a few things here.
1)If you can soak the lizard every day for a few hours each day with heated water (a heater in or under the containor keeps it warm). Do so for a few weeks to help restore hydration.
2)Next, if you can get fruit flavored pedialyte, its not easy but use a turkey baster to give pedialyte by mouth for a few days.
3)Use smaller prey items, use multiple smaller prey items, not large prey items. I have always seen better results from feeding many smaller food items to monitors not something they can barely swallow.
4) Feed more often, not with more days in between, this keeps hydrated food in smaller easier to digest amounts in the animals system.
5)Next you need to take a closer look at your caging. A more specific look at certain things.
a.The top of the cage or high points of the sides should not have ventilation, this should only be in the sides near the middle.
b.Take a look at the ground temps of the substrate, dig in and check it.
c.Consider that in recent history mass air temps have dropped all over the country, not that we as warm blooded humans notice this as easy as reptiles do. So the temps have dropped, just enough that the heat in the cage causes moisture loss more easily.
d.Spread a few heat sources of much smaller wattage across the cage, try low watt bulbs, one on each end. Adjust to lower and less if you see a lack of needed moisture in the cage.

After this let me know how it works. Wish you luck, some tricks I used on rescue reptiles for a friend of mine.