Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have 2 baby leopard geckos that are 2 months old and 2 that are a month and a half old... they are all together in a 10 gallon right now...

when do i have to seperate them?
how old do they have to be before they can be handled?(they are skittish right now)
when can they be sexed?

So you have 4 of them in a 10gallon tank?

You should realy separate them now. Baby leos do much better raised alone, this way they are not stressed by cage mates and have no competition for food. Babies that are raised alone tend to grow faster, larger and are healthier over all. Often times, when young Leos are housed togehter in pairs or groups - one or more leos will be the dominant lizards, and these guys will get the most food and will stress the other ones out. You will usually note than one or more will be growing much faster than the others - the smaller leos will appear to be just a little smaller at first, but as they other leos grow faster and bigger and intimidate them more they will often begin to get thinner, stop eating and eventually become very sick. To avoid this and allow each Leo to grow at its own rate, and hsve ample acess to food and a stress free environment -babies should be housed separtely.

Since you have leos of different ages, its even more important they are separated. The bigger ones are much more likely to dominant the smaller ones.

If you choose not to separate them - then you will need to separate them soon anyway as that tank is really not big enough for them all even now. If you choose to have multiple leos in a tank you need to have 2-3 hides per lizard, which is not going to be possible in that 10 gallon.

As far as sex goes, they should DEFINATELY be separated by the time they are 6 months old, becase soon after that they will begin to sexually mature and problems of inter-male aggression and early breeding will occur.

But really, you should separate them all now.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

i have a baldy thats 1.5 yrs old in a 20 gallon is that ok?

i have a spare 30 gallon should i move the baldy to the 30 and have 2 of the babies in the 20 and leave the other 2 in the 10?

Any way you want to do it is fine....however, ideally you really hould have all four of the babies in separate tanks. Splitting them into two groups of two is better than having them all together, but still not ideal.

If you cant get more tanks right now then start by separating them into two groups of two (the two larger in one tank, two smaller in the other) and work on getting more tanks. Even just picking up a couple more ten gallons, which are pretty cheap - would work for the time being. you could also use a divider and put two of them in the 30 or the 20 (is it a 20 long or a 20 high? if its a 20high then its too small to divide, a 20 long would be ok temporarily) that way they wouldnt be able to see or contact each other.

As they grow you will ultimately need at least a 10 gallon for each,although adults do better in 20gallon longs.

As long as they are housed together, even in pairs...keep a close eye on all of them, make sure you are aware who is eating what and how much. If you can separate them for feeding this is even better. Make sure you have several hides in each tank and watch for signs of weight loss or decreased appetite in any of them. If you notice these then they will definatley need to be separated.

Again, due to not knowing the sexes of these guys they will all need to be sepaarated into individual tanks in a few months to avoid any complications. Once they are full grown (12-15months) then if you want to try putting females together you can do so.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

would going into a rack system be a better idea? if so, how much would they be?

A rack system would work - it might be a bit overkill for just four leos, but if you are planning to get more in the future they are great space savers.

Buying a rack system is very expensive - the commericially available ones are several hundred to several thousand dollars. Its much cheaper to build one yourself!

To save money, you can also just buy rubbermaid tubs instead of tanks, even if you dont have them on a rack system. As long as you are using a thermostat or a rhoestat (dimmer) to control the heat output on the heat pad then it would be fine.

Personally, i think for four leos building a rack might be a bit much - but if you are good at that stuff, or if you have plans to get more in the future it would be great. Here are some links for building ideas:

http://www.herpcenter.com/breeding-rack-plans-1.html
http://www.arbreptiles.com/cages/rack.shtml

You could also just get tanks with stands that allow you to have two tanks per stand (one on top and one on bottom) or build stands that allow you to do the same, this would sasve space and save you having to build a whole rack. But you would hasve to buy or build tanks.

Or you could also use tubs.

I think that right now its more important you get them separated, so i would start by either buying tanks or tubs and getting them all separated. Then, if you want to build a rack or something you can do it at your leisure and not feel rushed to get it done quickly.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

if i do go with the tubs(rubbermaid containers/sterilite)would i have to make holes in the container for air?

can i put the adhesive heating pads on the bottom like the ones put on the bottom of a tank?

You can drill holes in the lid.

Yes you can use heat pads with them - just make sure you elevate the tub slightly (as you would with a regular tank) in order to allow air flow. Also, make sure you are controlling the heat output of the heat pad with a dimmer or a rheostat - left without any control the heat pad will get hot enough to melt the plastic (probably) but if you are controlling it to maintain the correct 88-92 degrees it should be fine.

If you are going to do a few tubs you can also use flexwatt heat tape and run it under all of the tubs, which may save some money as you will only need one thermostat/dimmer etc. The flexwatt takes a little modification, here is a link on how to do that:

http://www.arbreptiles.com/cages/rack.shtml

Hope this helps
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

To save heatpads, you can also just lay them under the tank without removing the sticky part - if the tubs are going to be a temporary home then you may want to do this, i've never done it myself but i've heard that they heat just fine without the sticker removed. You can also use a variety of heat pad that doesnt stick on.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

Although a lot of people believe that you should house baby geckos separately I have not had a problem housing them together. Having said that a 10 gallon is to small for 4. I house 3 babies in a 20 long with no problems. It has 2 moist hides and 2 dry hides. Maybe you can tranfer your adult into the 30 gallon, 3 babies into the 20 as long as it is a 20 long not 20 tall other wise I would put the babies in the 30 and keep the adult in the 20, and keep your smallest gecko in the 10. Just an idea instead of putting them in tubs.
It has to do with preferences. Although I do breed my geckos they are still my pets and I love having them displayed where I can see them.IMO what is the point of having these wonderfull pets and just hiding them away in plastic tubs not for me. If the geckos are just for breeding then rack system might be for you. GL just some options.

BTW the only reason they are in tubs is because I took pictures of them while I was cleaning their homes. The 2 in the tubs are not housed together.

ok... well the babies have been together since they were born (the 2mth old with the 2 mth old and 1.5 mth old with the 1.5 mth old) then they were brought together. won't they get depressed if they were to be seperated?

Reptiles dont have human emotions...when we think of them being "depressed" or "lonely" or something like that we are humanizing them. Reptiles are great, fascinating, interesting animals - but they are not humans, and it does them a dis-service to impress human emotions upon them. Instead you want to try to understand the reptiles for what they are, and cater to their individual needs

Thats a long way of sasying that no, they won't get depressed leos dont have emotional attachments to each other and they will be just fine being housed alone.

As Niki says, some people have success housing Leo's together. If you do, you need to make sure you are ready to separate them if needed - if you notice weight loss or fighting etc etc. If you notice any of the Leos losing weight, separate them immediately. I also find that its easier for people who have a fair amount of experience with Leos to house them together - as they are more cued in to the subtle hints that something may be wrong...if this is your first, or one of your first Leos then i really would recomend separating them.

Below i have attached a write up i made awhile back that touches on some of the different issues you need to consider if Leos are housed together. And it also includes a section on things to do if you are housing them together - that will make it more sucessful.

Remember...if you do keep the babies together, and they do well then you will need to separate them in a little while as they get older. This is to make sure that you know what sexes they are before they go back in together.

MULTIPLE LEOS

1. Dominance Aggression/Stress: Many people make the mistake of assuming that aggression is displayed only through physical aggression, but this is incorrect. While its true that these are SOME of the ways that dominance/aggression can be shown there are other, subtler, and probably more dangerous (because they can be harder to notice) ways. When multiple Leo’s are housed together, even females, one of them will be more dominant than the other one, the more dominant one will usually take the best hiding spots and the most food. Getting less food and taking second best spots chronically will lead to one of the Leos becoming stress; chronic stress will lead to failure to grow and thrive and parasite infections. Even if the more dominant Leo doesn't "take" the most food, their presence will often lead to the less dominant one not eating us much. A good analogy is to imagine you are back in school, you are sitting down, about to eat your lunch and the class bully plops down right next to you to eat his lunch...you are probably going to lose your appetite. Right? Now what if that happened every day?

2. Physical Aggression: Not much needs to be said about this, physical aggression is when they actually fight. Chasing, biting, etc. Obviously this leads to drastic problems such as stress, infections and lost limbs. Sometimes Leo’s will appear ok with each other for months or even years and then one day they begin fighting. Any combination of sex can lead to fighting, even two females…especially if you have a female that was incubated at male temps – or a “hot” female, as they are referred to.

3. Positive Sex Identification: This is a problem that frequently gets over looked when people consider putting two Leos together. Leos cannot be sexed with the naked eye until they are close to a year of age. Educated guesses can be made, but there is no sure fire way to tell, without using special equipment. There are a few problems that can arise from this. If you get two baby Leos and house them together and they turn out to be a male and a female, they will figure this out before you do and they may mate, and possibly when they are too young. Mating when they are too young causes serious problems for the female, producing eggs takes a lot of nutrients and energy...energy that young Leos need to be using to grow. Young Leo’s that are bred are more likely to get sick or become egg bound or have other problems related to reproduction. If it turns out they are two males, the Leo’s will be able to tell before you do and you could come home one day to find they have been fighting. It’s possible that one may even kill the other.

4. Disease, spreading and identifying: Another issue when Leo’s are housed together is disease. First and most obvious, if one Leo gets sick, its housemate is more likely to get sick also and then you will have two Leos to treat, not just one. Also, say you come home one day to find a suspicious looking poo (smelly, runny, and nasty) or some vomit, there is no way to tell which Leo is having a problem, unless you can constantly observe them, precious time is wasted trying to figure out which Leo is ill. Or, how do you tell if they are both defecating? If one Leo was to become impacted (or has another issue causing constipation) you may not be able to tell until it’s too late. You will still be seeing fecals, but will be unable to tell which Leo they belong to. Also, one early symptom of disease is lack of appetite, when Leos are housed together it’s harder to tell who is eating how much. This is especially true if you keep a bowl of insects in the tank constantly, or often. You may set out the insects, walk off, come back later and find them all eaten...but who has eaten them? There is no real way to tell, you may not notice one Leo isn't eating until you see significant weight loss.

Its definitely possible to keep Leos together, many people do – and many with great success. The important thing is to identify the risks and take steps to reduce this risk as much as possible. It is also something that is easier to do if you have a certain degree of experience with Leos…with experience comes the ability to pick up on subtle cues in Leopard Gecko behavior, cues which may lead to early recognition of disease. If you do decide to keep multiple Leos together the set up should be as follows:

1. Tank Size: This is very important, a 30 or 40gallon tank should be used when housing multiple Leos, bigger tanks for more geckos, of course. The size is mostly relevant when it comes to having proper hides. You need to have three hides per lizard. For each Leo, there needs to be a warm hide, cool hide and humid hide. Even if all the hides are not frequently used, it’s important they have the choice – no Leo should ever have to choose between being near another Leo and be warm, or be cold.

2. Heat Pad Size: This really is an add-on to the above. You need to have a large enough heat pad to be able to fit three warm hides on it.

3. Feeding: Since it’s harder to monitor food intake with multiple Leos, you should take steps to make this easier. Instead of just throwing in crickets you can either take the Leos out one by one and feed in a separate tank, or feed insects one by one to each Leo.

4. Close monitoring: Always keep an eye out for signs of aggression, stress or weight loss. If any symptoms of disease are noticed in one Leo, that animal should be separated immediately to a quarantine cage. If any weight loss is noted, that animal should be more closely focused on, and potentially removed. Routine weight monitoring with a digital scale will help track any weight loss trends. Any serious aggression should be remedied by separating the lizards. Keep in mind that while some Leos may thrive in a multi-Leo habitat, others will not…so always be prepared to make adjustments if necessary.

5. Spare tanks: Make sure you always have spare tanks available in case a Leo falls ill, or aggression becomes an issue. You want to be able to split them up easily if needed.

6. Ratios: Always combine Leos in sensible ratios, and only house adults in multiple animal enclosures. Only keep one male Leo per any enclosure…one male can be housed with 2 or more females…however you must compensate breeding activity with increased food and supplementation. Multiple females can be housed together. No Leos should be housed together unless the are old enough to be positively sexed.

If you do decide not to separate them...Niki is definaetly right that you will need a bigger tank

Good luck with the little guys
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog