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Is a cinnamon pastel the same as a cinnamon, just a different name? Or is it the long way of saying pewter? Or is it a totally different morph?

Are high contrast albinos synonymous with lavender albinos? Do hets have to specifically denoted as high contrast hets?

Is it possible to have a homozygous animal that is also het for another recessive trait? i.e. "Super pastel het for Axanthic"

Can a homozygous animal also have another co-dom or dom. trait visually represented? i.e. "Yellow bellied super pastel" or "Ivory spider"

Does anyone have any pics to share of an adult blonde phase pastel? or an adult super cinny? or an adult super pastel?

Thank you all for your time!

Is a cinnamon pastel the same as a cinnamon, just a different name? Or is it the long way of saying pewter? Or is it a totally different morph?
NO, Cinnamon pastel has both the cinnamon and pastel genes viable in them where the cinnamon is just a cinnoman (no pastel)

Are high contrast albinos synonymous with lavender albinos? Do hets have to specifically denoted as high contrast hets?
Hets tend not to denote the specifics because some hets to not garentee the out come such as in pied. High pieds can throw low babies, same as hets, you can get highs and lowes. (personally I don't know about albino haven't studied them much.)

Is it possible to have a homozygous animal that is also het for another recessive trait? i.e. "Super pastel het for Axanthic"
Yes, this is how you get pastel het clowns to make pastel clowns and peid, axantics and so on. Also you can have double hets by breeding a rec. to rec. such as a clown to a pied. All off spring will be double hets for pied clowns.

Can a homozygous animal also have another co-dom or dom. trait visually represented? i.e. "Yellow bellied super pastel" or "Ivory spider"
Yes, see bumble bee (one of many new peoples favorites) AKA Pastel spider. There are many double co-dom dom morphs and more are produced every year. Please note that co-dom dom genes are alway visable when present so their is not het for them. Some people may claim to be selling a normal looking snake and call it a het pastel because it's dad was on, it's not. Don't fall for these scams.

Does anyone have any pics to share of an adult blonde phase pastel? or an adult super cinny? or an adult super pastel?
You can find tons pics by searching in the clasified and also check the links at the top TSK and Nerd have some great pics on their sites.

Hope this helps,
matt

A cinnamon pastel is a cinnamon. A cinnamon pastel crossed with a pastel will give you Pewters.

>>Is a cinnamon pastel the same as a cinnamon, just a different name? Or is it the long way of saying pewter? Or is it a totally different morph?
>>NO, Cinnamon pastel has both the cinnamon and pastel genes viable in them where the cinnamon is just a cinnoman (no pastel)

Sorry but I think you are wrong on that one. (So I will let you know from what I learned)

When the cinnamon gene was first "found", it was named cinnamon pastel (just like black pastel), but with all the confusion around the pastel, people stopped using "cinnamon pastel" and only refer to them as "cinnamon". It's the same as with "enchi", at first it was named "enchi pastel" but they removed the "pastel" word from it. But now you can have "enchi pastel" who are actually an animal that exhibit the enchi and pastel gene.

Some people still use the name "cinnamon pastel", and should not be confuse with "pewter" who is an animal with the cinnamon and the pastel gene, unless otherwise stated.

Also, an High contrast albino is not a lavender albino. Until proved otherwise, these are 2 different genes. The high contrast albinos are just normal albinos that yellow is more yellow. You can also have faded albinos. While the Lavender Albino is different, where it's suppose to be "white" it's actually kinda "purple" aka Lavender.

I think all the other questions where answered and for picture, look on the web, you will find some. But there is less adult pictures than babies, since they are usually a little bit less attractive.
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love this world, don't hate it.

I believe you are right - at least that's the conclusion I had come to from MY research. The follow up question I have to the cinnamon pastel question is that I have seen the formula for a silver bullet as "cinnamon pastel by cinnamon." Is this pewter by regular cinnamon then?

And regarding the high contrast albino - just so I can be clear - there is no way to measure if the "het for albino" is really "het for high contrast" right?

Thanks for your input!

I remember when Greg Graziani was first making the case for cinnamon being genetic. He had already proven pastel jungle (later shortened to just pastel) and was comparing it to his founding cinnamon pastel (later shortened to just pastel). As we know now the cinnamon did prove genetic and made a stunning combo with pastel (pewter) but even despite the similarities and the combo it turns out the two genes aren't alleles (i.e. they are mutations of different genes). So I think the original name - cinnamon pastel - was a reference toward the similarities between the already proven pastel just like its original name - pastel jungle - was a reference to the already described but apparently not genetic classic jungle. Ball python names have a bit of a settling in period.

I’m not sure but believe that the high contrast albinos have the exact same albino mutation as regular albinos (at least it’s the same gene so compatible). The inheritance of whatever other genetics is involved to make them high contrast I don’t know but suppose a het from a high contrast albino would be more likely to produce high contrast albinos than your average het albino. Not sure what they should be called though if the high contrast part is cased by genes other than the albino mutation, maybe “het albino from a high contrast line”?

should read:

...cinnamon pastel (later shortened to just CINNAMON).

You would get a silver bullet by breeding a pewter back to a cinnamon.

-Andrew Varela,
Serpentine Exotics

With all due respect to exoticball, almost every answer that was given in that post was incorrect in relation to the questions asked.

First, cinnamon pastel and cinnamon refer to the same morph. They started out being referred to as cinnamon pastels, later it was shortened to just cinnamon, but some still use the original name.

Second, a pastel het clown is not a homozygous animal that is het for a recessive trait. That would be two heterozygous genes. A good example of a homozygous animal that is also a het would be an albino that is het for axanthic (albino het snow). This is possible and has been done

Third, a bumble bee is not a homozygous animal with another dominant trait being represented. A bumble bee is a double heterozygous animal. Since both traits are dominant, they are both visual in the heterozygous form. A good example of a homozygous animal with a dominant trait represented would be a spider piebald, or a pastel clown. This is also possible and has been done.

To answer the other question, high contrast albinos and lavender albinos are not the same. They may look somewhat similar as babies, but as adults lavenders become truly lavender and orange whereas high contrast albinos are basically just albinos that have been selectively bred, so they remain white and orange.

Please make sure that information is correct before posting it in public forums. Also, please do not take this the wrong way. I am not trying to insult or bash anyone with this post.

-Andrew Varela,
Serpentine Exotics

Andrew your right about the pastel being a het but Im sure its confusing to some newer people. It is a het for superpastel but also its a homo in itself, its a visual het though. I just wanted to clarify that so someone doesnt go out and buy a het pastel which someone else already posted that such an animal doesnt exsist. Het is a term usually used for recessive traits but if you want to get technical all co-doms that have a super form are hets such as mojave, pastel, lesser, and so on. So as not to confuse anyone yes co-doms are hets but they are visual hets for a super form but its not usually used that way.
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

You are right in that the term is not commonly used in reference to co-dom genetics. Sorry if my post was confusing to anyone.

-Andrew Varela,
Serpentine Exotics

I believe we are changing the incorrect use of het for only recessive and it would be confusing to fewer and fewer people all the time. I think it is important as newer people come into the hobby for them to learn the correct definition of heterozygous as having a mismatched pair of whatever gene you are talking about. There will probably always be some who can't unlearn the thinking that het only means "hidden gene carrier" as in recessives. Or get past that but then get stuck thinking the only other use of het is for half way to a super as in pastel. But by understanding the real meaning of het as having an unmatched pair of genes will become more important as homozygous pinstripes become available and need to be distinguished from the heterozygous genotype of this first proven dominant ball python mutation.

good points Randy
I would just like to add to your second sentence, that it is also important to realize that a lot of the "newer people" coming into the hobby, will also be "young people" who will already have been introduced to genetics in school (hopefully), and will already have an understanding of the correct definition of heterozygous. What will their perceptions be? Confusion?
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Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

Confusion may be the best that can be hoped for. I think a few genetics-knowledgeable newbies have already either abandoned or been driven off the forum.

Paul Hollander

I fully understand that recessive hets have no visual marker (at least not an obvious one but pieds have markers) and I also understand that co-dom hets have visual markers but the main question I was asking (and I'm pretty sure it was answered) is: Can homozygous animals still have a visual trait (aka a het co-dom or dom marker?) The reason I ask is because I love the ivories that are in circulation now but see the potential to cross them with something like a spider or clown. Yes I know spiders are dom traits and clowns are recessive traits but are these combos possible?

Still would like a pic of an adult blonde pastel if anyone has one! Thanks again all!