Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My male has a minor RI.. He is not blowing bubbles. He just has a weez, that has been going on for about a week.I have his temps at 83-96.. Should I have the humidy high or low? And is there any meds I can pickup at a local pet store? I don't have a local reptile vet. Thanks for the help Marshall

Marshall,
Are you able to measure the humidity within the unit? With temps that high on the hot side you have probably lowered the humidity to the point that your boas lung tissue is too dry and has become irritated. Lower your temps somewhat and raise the humidity into at least the 65% to 75% range. If you are not seeing any mucous, the increase in humidity will most likely improve the breathing condition before it moves into an RI if it has not been too long.

Kelly

Im not a vet, but this is my remidy. but it sounds like resp infection if you can get a vet then take him to one and if not take one half of an ampicillen pill which will be 250mg crush it up and let it dilute into the water approx half cup to be exact, then take a nose dropper or eye bottle dropper fill it up and depending on the snakes size give it to them down the throat like you would be force feeding a couple drops if a baby and large snakes 1 whole dropper every eight hours. lower humidity,raise heat temp in tank. good luck.

I wouldn't recommend any medication, especially a given milligram without knowing the weight of the snake, but ampicillin is prescription only. I would ideally find a vet if you are not well versed with handling respiratory infections or do as Kelly said.

www.arav.org/ECOMARAV/timssnet/amm/tnt_mdsearch.cfm

First is that you should never lower the humidity on a tropical boid with an RI. When the humidity is too low, the lung surface tissue dries to the point that it becomes irritated and damaged and allows bacterial invasion of this tissue causing an RI, or aggravation of an existing one. With the extra ambient humidity, this moisture will allow the boas immune system to operate more efficiently at the surface of the lung tissue where most of the invasive bacteria are located. This also allows any antibiotic that maybe used less restricted access to the surface tissue as well.

As far as the use of ampicillin, this is a penicillin class antibiotic that has a limited spectrum of activity against bacterial pathogens that are responsible for most RI’s in boids, and also less effectiveness on other causitive bacteria species due to acquired resistance. In addition, the dosing procedure you specified would give a highly inaccurate underdose of this antibiotic, which has serious consequences in itself. Antibiotics should never be used indiscriminately. If the increase in humidity and low 90’s temps don’t improve the condition in a week or so, a vet should be considered for a proper treatment regimen.

Kelly

what ever you say, im not going to argue with your professional wisdom on this matter. lets hope for the best of the snake for her sake because the snake does have a respitory infection and she does not have a vet around hummmm. good luck.

I was not trying to start any type of argument, just trying to state some facts as I see them. I believe any vet would agree on the ampicillin issue, as inaccurate dosing of antibiotics is virtually always worse than not giving the antibiotic treatment at all.

On the RI issue, I think the jury is still out on whether this is actually a full RI. Low humidity causes the lung tissue to dry out and can cause the wheezing sound as the snake breathes. Additionally, you will also not see any mucous in the mouth associated with this condition. Many times the initial drying of the lung tissue by low humidity environments can be resolved by simply increasing the humidity. If this is done soon enough, the onset of an RI can be avoided. If he is not seeing any mucous as would be the case with an actual RI, and a vet is not readily available, increasing the humidity may resolve the issue without trying to locate a vet or the need for further treatment. Definitely worth a try, as I have seen it work many times before.

Kelly

let me say some thing to you i have been dealing with reptiles for 25 years and had many of cases of my reptiles having resp infection and yet to this day i have never lost or mis diagnosed an animal to this day and thats the truth, have a nice day. PS: i was just trying to help an unforturnate person and animal that didnt have a vet.

I greatly commend your concern and willingness to help the boa in this situation, and can tell that you are truly trying to help this person and I applaud you for that. However, I am concerned about the misuse and overuse of antibiotic treatment in reptiles. Antibiotics should never be used indiscriminately, and definitely not without a proper diagnoses and known weight of the animal for proper dosing.

I back calculated the dose of ampicillin that you had recommended using the dilution you stated. The accepted dosage for ampicillin in snakes is 75 to 100 mg/kg. Based on the dilution you stated, this would only be approximately 5% of the recommended dosage. Under dosing and overuse of antibiotics causes numerous problems, the most serious of which is the production of resistant bacteria strains. Baytril usage is a classic example of this. Resistant strains of some bacteria species are already showing up due to the widespread misuse of this antibiotic by uninformed private reptile enthusiasts. This is why it is highly recommended that any keeper see a qualified vet when attempting any antibiotic treatment on their animals.

Please don’t see the discussion in this thread as criticism, but as dissemination of information so people can make an informed decision. Thanks,

Kelly

I've heard both the "raise the humidity" and I've heard the "lower the humidity" opinions.

I'm of the belief raising the humidity is better, in most cases. I believe (strictly MHO) most people maintain Boa constrictors at too low a humidity. I'm guessing most of the time with most common set-ups at about 40% to 60% relative humidity. For my $.02, I think most Boa constrictors should be kept at about around 60% to 80% relative humidity. I've noticed my boas will opt for more humidity over temperature more often than not. Commented about that previously here.

My experience has been, I get the whistling behavior from my boas when things are too dry.

Now obviously, if you've got condensation and slimy mold growing, your humidity is too high, but I doubt that is the most common condition. Most people have a closed system with some ventilation, electrical underbelly heat (or worse, incandescent lights), a very dry and absorbent substrate, and with very little water available. That's why I provide a large water bowl -- to hopefully increase humidity. Boa constrictors have a very fine thin skin, in my opinion. Compare them to their cousins from Madagascar. It's a much thicker hide with the Madagascar group. Boa constrictors are creatures of hollow logs, if you ask me. I'd guess that would be their perfect micro-habitat.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Melissa Kaplan's
Herp Care Collection
Last updated April 19, 2007

Respiratory Tract Infection in Reptiles

©1999 Melissa Kaplan

In reptiles, respiratory tract infection (RTI) are caused by a bacterial infection in the lungs. RTI is generally related to improper environmental conditions (being kept too cold, too wet, prolonged stress due to enclosure being kept at a single temperature rather than the species' required thermal gradient, prolonged psychosocial stress, etc.). If the reptile is not otherwise being cared for properly (dirty enclosure, inadequate feedings, etc.), this can exacerbate the condition, making it more severe and prolonging recovery.

Symptoms and Diagnosis
Symptoms include listlessness, weight loss due to decreased appetite, swollen or bloated body, gaping, open mouth breathing, often with audible exhalations when in an advanced state. Wheezing may be heard, or clicking noises when breathing. Bubbly, stringy or sheeting mucous appears in the mouth. The head may be held in a raised position to facilitate breathing. In snakes, the tines of the forked tongue may be stuck together. Respiratory infections in snakes are especially dangerous in those snakes who have only one functioning lung (colubrids, etc.).

When you notice signs of a respiratory infection, not only must you evaluate and correct the environmental problems, but you must take the reptile to a reptile to be evaluated for systemic antibiotic therapy and possibly fluid and nutritional support. If the reptile does not respond to environmental correction and the antibiotic therapy, a culture and sensitivity should be done to determine exactly what the organism(s) is and the best antibiotic to combat it. The sample is easily taken by the vet in the form of a choanal swab or, in more difficult cases, a lung washing. In rare cases, the infection may be due to a fungal infection, which requires different medications than bacterial infections.

Treatment
Treating a respiratory infection requires two things: an immediate evaluation of the day and night temperatures in the reptile's enclosure, with additional heat sources added or broken/malfunctioning equipment replaced, and the attention of a reptile vet who will evaluate the reptile for systemic antibiotics and fluid replacement. In addition, if the reptile has cagemates or lives in a room where he is in line-of-site of other reptiles or household pets, an overall psychosocial evaluation needs to be made.

Reptile with respiratory infections should be kept in draft-free but well-ventilated enclosures maintained at the species' day time temperature gradient both during the day and at night. For reptiles who require a hotter basking area, the basking area temperatures do not need to be provided at night, but the higher overall gradient does. This will not only enable the reptile's own immune system to function better, but increases the efficacy of the antibiotics.

Anorectic lizards and chelonians will need to be hand- or force-fed during this time. Snakes may be able to do fine without food over the short term, but if they begin to show signs of weight loss (a loss in mass) then they, too, will need to be force-fed. See the article on Emaciation (Starvation) Protocol for force-feeding slurry recipes.

Winter Respiratory Infections in Snakes
In the case of snakes with respiratory infection, there is one thing you can try first. Unfortunately, respiratory infections are all too common in captive snakes during the winter because their keepers fail to realize that, as the outside temperatures drop, the temperatures inside the building drop, and so the heating equipment that provided sufficient heat during the summer cannot provide sufficient heat during the winter. If caught in time, just boosting the heat into the species' proper thermal range will often take care of the respiratory infection by providing a boost to the reptile's own immune system. If the snake was in a weakened condition to begin with, however, or is coming out of hibernation, or is gravid, merely boosting the heat may not be enough. If the symptoms of infection do not disappear completely within 24-48 hours, get the snake to the vet.

RTI Mimics
Other situations and conditions that may cause symptoms similar to respiratory infections are inclusion body disease in boas and pythons and ingestion of toxic substances - both of which require veterinary diagnosis and, in the latter case, intervention.

Choking or gagging on a piece of food or foreign object may result in temporary excess saliva. Being handled too soon after eating or drinking may result in water being regurged and spit out; since it is now mixed with saliva, it will be rather viscous rather than thin like plain water. If too soon after eating, some food may be partially regurged and stuck in the throat which may cause increased salivation. No other signs of RTI occur in these instances, so they are easily told apart from an RTI..

Some reptiles may exhibit signs of respiratory infection as a signal to you that they have been handled enough or want (or need) to be put down. My female Burmese python would start dripping saliva from her mouth in copious amounts when she'd decided she had had enough out and handling time at education events. When I saw the saliva start oozing from her mouth, I knew I needed to put her away off exhibit immediately. (An interesting note: my male Burmese would erect his anal spurs, digging them into my arm, when he was tired.)

Bottom line
If you see the signs of respiratory infection, and it is not related to being handled too soon after eating or drinking, get your reptile to a reptile vet now - delays will result in a weaker reptile, and depending on why the RTI was allowed to set in to begin with, may prolong recovery and stress.

I had a male that was making a whistle when he would breathe, and it ended up being a small piece of unshed skin around his nostrils. You might look to make sure its not somthing like that before you give any meds. Just a thought.
chris

I decided to do a Google search for "Boa R.I. treatments".The first listed link talks about a Antibiotic treatment I'm extremely happy with. Actually the first 4 result links speak of this treatment.I'm no vet or even vet tech so I'm not comfortable with giving any medical advice on here today. I was going to talk about my good results with this certain Antibiotic. Go to this link below, it speaks of this Antibiotic treatment. This Antibiotic can be found at Feed stores,cattle,horse farming need outlets.

Link to search results for "Boa R.I. treatments"
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS258US258&q=Boa+R%2eI%2e+treatments

Below #4 search result link go to this link

. . . . Lar M
tylan for RI - RedTailBoas

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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Well thanks for all the information. I just don't want to go to a vet that has no idea about snakes. This is a sharp sunglow. To me that is a huge deal and I would hate to get some wrong meds. Anyway I am no vet , but I tried Ornacycline, which is a antibiotic. I gave it to him Three days ago and today I didn't hear any wheezing. He is in a deep shed also. After he sheds "hopefully" tonight. I'm sure I will be able to see some kind of difference. Again thanks for all the help. I think highering the humdity was a key factor also. Thanks Marshall.

im glade the snake is feeling much better. theres nothing better then a happy, healthy animal.

Thanks for posting the link on Tylan. I just wanted to add a little more information about it. Tylan, or tylosin, is a macrolide class antibiotic that is mainly effective against only gram positive bacteria. It has been used successfully to treat chronic RI in reptiles caused by bacteria of the genus Mycoplasma and possibly Streptococcus (rarely). Some people confuse Mycoplasma with bacteria of the genus Mycobacterium, which causes tuberculosis, but they are completely different. Tylosin will usually work well only if the causative organism of the RI is Mycoplasma, otherwise it will usually be ineffective in resolving most other types of infections in reptiles.

An important point is that many chronic RI infections in boids that are unresponsive to other antibiotics have been found to be caused by the Mycoplasma bacteria. So if you have boids that are having frequent RI’s, then tylosin may be a good choice. Frequent RI’s would also call for a review of any husbandry practices that may contribute to these reoccurring problems.

Another plus is that Tylosin is relatively non-toxic and has a wide margin of safety, and I have seen dosage recommendations running from 5 to 50 mg/kg body weight at 48 to 72 hours between dosages. In the 1980’s I used it at 25 mg/kg per day on burmese pythons with no toxic effects, however I would not suggest that dosage. I have not seen any formal clinical PK studies conducted with tylosin use in reptiles, but Ross, and later Jenkins, have looked at it informally. I would recommend that a vet check any boid showing advanced RI symptoms and determine if tylosin is the appropriate antibiotic of choice, as other classes of antibiotics will be more effective unless it is a Mycoplasma induced RI.

Kelly

Kelly, How do you get a sputum swab sample for specific pathogen culture determination for RI in Boas?
Stick a Qtip down the Epiglottis?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

obtain a few throat culture kits from your vet. It is a sterile cotton swab in a sterile tube. They are pretty cheap and he can tell you how he prefers the sample to be preserved prior to analysis. Just swab the mucous up in the back of the throat taking care not to allow the swab to touch anything else before placing it back in the tube. Please let me know what the analysis shows if you ever take a sample in. Thanks,

Kelly