Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am 15-20 years into captive breeding now and many on the forum are breeders who have also been at it a while. I wanted to try and do some math and open some eyes about our collections.
How many kingsnakes do you have? Adult breeders? OK, now how many of those breeders are WC?? NOT locality, WC? With the successes of breeding, the downfall of collectors, and the increase of our laws protecting snakes it is now too easy to forget about WC stock.
My numbers: about 20-24 breeder kings--only 3 wc(12%)
about 6 milks--2 wc(33%)
While its a good thing that the demand is down for wc animals now that its not cost effective for commercial collectors, collecting is a form of hunting. Hunters play a vital role in field data collection. Land management practices and the explosion in property value(at least for a little while,heh heh)we know has squeezed out many populations.
A few years ago I went on these forums and suggested that we each take up a challenge and attempt to breed a "new"(SA,Asian,African colubrid)species that no one else currently works with...and by my counts we have gone the other way. With these "boom/bust" morph breedings and breeders looking for the next,newest all-white snake....maybe we can use our skills elsewhere? Anyone??

"While it's a good thing that the demand is down for wc animals now that its not cost effective for commercial collectors, collecting is a form of hunting. Hunters play a vital role in field data collection."

Lots of people go a field and don't take the animals from the wild. I don't think the lack or decrease of wc herps in collection correlates to less data being collected. Given digital photography and GIS data and the like I think much more "quality" data is available and shared now than in the good old market collecting days.

I also don't really like calling collecting hunting because there is as connotation there that I don't think washes. In the true sense of hunting there is a two-fold need to hunt. Number on is the need to obtain food and two is the need to control game. While the concept of sustainable take does apply to herp collecting I don't think what we do is the same from a biological standpoint as hunting deer. Collecting herps is about personal gratification. Hunting deer is fulfilling your role as the top predator.

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Darwin Rocks!

Hunting deer is fulfilling your role as the top predator.
tony so is keeping snakes in boxes its all about domination.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hunting is a very personal thing, and I wouldnt begin to try to catagorize why people do it. You say "domination", I say its experiencing the wilderness, testing your knowledge/skill, or even going OUT to lunch. Again Thomas, you are judging why you THINK people hunt rather than why you do or dont hunt. I suggest you try this too, I know you will learn from your experience.

Hunting is a very personal thing, and I wouldnt begin to try to catagorize why people do it. You say "domination", I say its experiencing the wilderness, testing your knowledge/skill, or even going OUT to lunch. Again Thomas, you are judging why you THINK people hunt rather than why you do or dont hunt. I suggest you try this too, I know you will learn from your experience.

jeff i live in TEXAS you think i dont know about hunting ahahahaha.
im not "judging" anyone jeff and yes i hunt.
nice try though,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Armadillos dont count, LMAO!

Tony, GIS information is more helpful data for certain. You are also correct in "recruitment/sustainable yield" points. I think my point was that .....looking at my collection now(middle of winter nothing to do,lol)I have less WC animals than most any time in the past. I would assume most people can say the same?? Being a big "wc advicate" and having such a relatively low WC animals.....makes me a little nervous about the inevitable domestication. I happen to think a kids' first snake should be a wc garter snake or equivalent....I dont like the idea of a kids' first snake being an albino honduran--call me crazy.

I only see four reasons to take an animal out of the wild.

#1 you're going to eat it

#2 its a true pest

#3 salvage operation from a construction or developement site

#4 take to work into a breeding program

I've done differently over my life but during that time there was always some sage old fart who advised of a different way. Now I'm moving into the old fart role though work on the sage part is slow going.

I have absolutely no problem with the domestication of "pet" snakes though I wish it were done in a more organized fashion to ensure long term viability.
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Darwin Rocks!

Tony, you dont sound like a hunter, so back to topic. Viable bloodlines, what % should we each be trying to incorporate??

Well I do hunt Jeff. At least we know you are not clairvoyant.

You need, at a minimum 8.8 animals to establish a good maximum avoidance system to sustain long-term project viability. % of wc does not matter.
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Darwin Rocks!

8.8 didnt used to sound like too big of a deal.....but it certainly does now huh? No, you know me as Jeff Schofield, Clair Voyant I aint! Clarivoyant.... not that either. Good to get a few nuts shaken from the tree here! Happy holidays buddy!

Hahahahahahahaha, well you don't.

Hunting snakes or collecting, is not comparable to game hunting. Not in the least. There is no data as to what collecting does to populations. At this time its all guesswork.

Not that its all that bad, but there is no data on recruitment, take, etc. There is no data on wild recruitment based on weather, plants growth, etc. There is no set way to estimate populations, YET. So there is no way to predict amount of take. This is all known with game animals. All guesswork with wild snakes.

With snakes, habitat destruction/alteration, seems to be the key concern for population loss.

Also, a kids first snake should NEVER be a WC snake, Any snake taken from nature should have a much higher responsibility then a captive produced snake. It is a free living animal and is part of the ecology. To take it, means we should get the most out of it, not the least. That is, WC's should be used to improve or maintain captive populations, not used as a throw-away snake as they were in the past.

Captive produced animals ARE not part of anything natural, nor are they free(freedom has value) So without question, these should be used to teach the inexperienced how to care for a snake. In particular, morphs that do not occur in nature. They are perfect for beginers. As they do not have anything to do with nature, except for the husbandry skills that need to be learned to care for captive living animals.

Cheers from a field herper and longterm keeper.

But, nice victory over the zags.....hopefully our young kids can step it up for conference play.

back on topic. Agreed WC animals should have the most value in terms of what they are used for.
I think hunting is being part of the ecosystem and more about experiencing reality. Collecting something for captivity is not the same, that is a removal from all things natural. It is more of taking things into the virtual world (illusion) of something that is, and entirely for the desires of people.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

You guys dont value that "first" interest in wild animals that got most of us into keeping snakes to begin with?? If it wasnt for that there would be no CB animals....back on topic....
How many WC animals do each of you have in your collections? %?? That is how much each of us values keeping bloodlines outcrossed not the vp/hybino extreme whatever......

I have four WC snakes in my collection and they are local morph thamnophis that I have been working with the last few years. These are not available anywhere else and that is why I have them as part of my collection. They are very fun active snakes with lots of behavior which is why I keep them. They can teach you a lot. I use to keep some WC crotalus too, but since I got married that has slowly been outlawed by the wife. Now I just go visit them at their home and take photos. Everything else is captive bred. Something like 30 snakes total outside of neonates.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

LOL! Threads here tend to do that. Just my two cents but thats 50% of the fun.
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Darwin Rocks!

I have 0 wc herps in my collection but most can be traced to wild collected stock.
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Darwin Rocks!

All snakes came from wild collected stock, hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, sorry, we were getting along to well. Cheers

What I meant was that I can trace many of my animals back to the specific wc stock they are derived from. Don't you think the fact that all stock, regardless of whether the lineage is know or not, comes from wild stock is a little too obvious to mention? No disrespect intended, but if you would not look so hard for points of disagreement, I think you'd find more consensus here.
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Darwin Rocks!

Kinda a joke Tony, of course all came from wild stock.

And I am not looking for concensus. There is no need for that. Isn't this only conversation to be used or not?

I hate to bring this up, but part of being a pioneer or a trail blazer of sorts, is not worrying about what others think. After all, if they thought like me, they would have done it first. Cheers

Maybe you were just born sooner??? Just a little ribbing Frank. LOL.
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Jerry Kruse

"Yesterday is history.....tomorrow is a mystery.........but today is a gift -- that is why it is called the present". - Master Oogway

"Kinda a joke Tony, of course all came from wild stock."

Taken but sometimes it's hard to tell. For my part I'm trying to back off of the personal and sarcastic nature of my posts. Note I said "trying".

"And I am not looking for concensus. There is no need for that. Isn't this only conversation to be used or not? "

First, I think people need to recognize consensus. Without it we belabor points that do not need further discussion. Second, some level of consensus lends credibility to ideas and the lack of it says the opposite. For instance, if an idea I post gets blasted by most everyone the reason is more likely that the idea is flawed or I'm communicating it poorly than everyone else is being hosed and ignorant.

"I hate to bring this up, but part of being a pioneer or a trail blazer of sorts, is not worrying about what others think."

Being a trailblazer or in this context, being unafraid to try new things, is completely different from ignoring input from others. Consensus that a new idea might have merit is highly correlated with success upon implementation.

"After all, if they thought like me, they would have done it first."

Then again if you weren't born first you might not have done it first. Again no disrespect but you've got a bit of an age advantage on this one and we aren't talking rocket science.

When I was in my teens growing up on Maryland's eastern shore, I figured out how to house, keep, cycle, and breed snakes all by my lonesome. I had hatchling snakes every summer. The point here is not to diminish what you did but to show that there were likely hundreds of such kids who did the same thing. What makes you "pioneers" stand out is timing and the fact that you were all networked enough to get your accomplishments noticed.
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Darwin Rocks!

Damn FR, well put.

Hunting snakes or collecting, is not comparable to game hunting. Not in the least. There is no data as to what collecting does to populations. At this time its all guesswork.

FR-the models of field biology still apply. The ideas of carrying capacity, recruitment, and sustainable yield do apply even if there is no hard data to support it. Snakes make more baby snakes every year without anyone having to count them.

Not that its all that bad, but there is no data on recruitment, take, etc. There is no data on wild recruitment based on weather, plants growth, etc. There is no set way to estimate populations, YET. So there is no way to predict amount of take. This is all known with game animals. All guesswork with wild snakes.

FR-correct me if I am wrong, is this the same point you were trying to make in the first paragraph??

With snakes, habitat destruction/alteration, seems to be the key concern for population loss.

FR---SEEMS?????

Also, a kids first snake should NEVER be a WC snake, Any snake taken from nature should have a much higher responsibility then a captive produced snake. It is a free living animal and is part of the ecology. To take it, means we should get the most out of it, not the least. That is, WC's should be used to improve or maintain captive populations, not used as a throw-away snake as they were in the past.

FR-to me there is no higher calling for a snake than to get an eager young mind involved in the environment and interested in its biology. Keeping a live animal(even for a short time)incorporates a degree of responsibility, a great learning experience. Better it teach a kid than run over by a car right? If not for your first wc snake.....

Captive produced animals ARE not part of anything natural, nor are they free(freedom has value) So without question, these should be used to teach the inexperienced how to care for a snake. In particular, morphs that do not occur in nature. They are perfect for beginers. As they do not have anything to do with nature, except for the husbandry skills that need to be learned to care for captive living animals.

FR-a CB snake is the bumper sticker for sale at the gift shop.....the WC snake is the attraction we came to see. I assure you that I do value nature and the "catch of the day" may well just being in a great place having a great time with or without someone else. Morphs DO occur in nature, and are "so rare" that we now seem to prize them over normal ones. The experience of finding a snake is completely seperate from keeping one. Most kids need their mind stimulated beyond Discovery channel to appreciate the novelty of keeping a live snake. I simply fear for the generation brought up with snake shows instead of fields.....but this is WAY off topic. So answer me, how many WC snakes do you have??%??

"FR-a CB snake is the bumper sticker for sale at the gift shop.....the WC snake is the attraction we came to see."

I disagree. Wild populations are a part of a large whole where captive-bred are not but at the organism level they are the same and both deserve proper respect and care.

I think I understand what you're trying to say here but you come across as having a level of contempt for captive-bred animals.
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Darwin Rocks!

You say the model for harvesting still applies. Well the model may apply, but that model requires data points. The data points for snakes are not the same as for mammals. That is what is missing.

I have had many conversations with Game and Fish, about protecting this species or that species. Their responce is, WE DO NOT KNOW. So we will protect it.

So yes, there is a complete lack of data.

Also, game animals have a permit system to control take. Reptiles have for the most part bag limits. Which is easily gotten around.

Also why I say you have no respect for nature is, You seem to value humans far more then anything natural. For instance, your approach about a beginer, young or otherwise, getting their first snake keeping experience with wild caughts, points this out. You act like its an honor to be collected and kept by a beginer. I do KNOW, snakes do not want to be collected, they want to live where they are suppose to live. They want to live where they are designed to live. If not, they would crawl up to you, instead of trying to get away. And they do try to get away. In fact, if you leave any one of your cages open, they will get away, even captive hatched ones.

I would have to ask, would you want(consider it an honor) to be collected by some giant monster(super ugly and smells) only to die for poor husbandry(most common result)????????????? Would you? If so, you are the odd. OK, if aliens were cute and were really sexy, then maybe. But other then that!

I often use the term, narsisisstic, which means its all about us. In this case, your only thinking about the human and not the animal.

Its also not about who is superior or humans over animals. Its a simple human thing to do. Consider the life your taking(effecting), when removing an animal from nature, YOU ARE TAKING its life. It does have a part in nature and a place in nature. So yes, taking it from nature is in all reality KILLING it.

Then your saying put that animal in the hands of a beginer, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I think my little term fits. Your only thinking of yourself.

On the otherhand, its not a yes or no type situation. For instance, snakes found crossing roads, have a very high chance of becoming roadkills. So these animals are a better choice for captivity then taking them from a natural habitat.

Then, snakes for disturbed habitats are a better choice then those from natural habitats.

But in all cases, captive hatched is a better choice then any wildcaught. You see sir, at this time you have a choice and you can make a better choice. Soon, you will not have a choice.

As their natural habitats disappear and increasing laws take effect, you will not be able to make that choice, then if allowed, you may not be able to have snakes at all. Cheers

You say I am narcessistic, I say you antropomorphize.
Unfortunately, in this world, these populations dont/cant manage themselves. This kind of dismisses your ideals doesnt it? I mean there is no governing board of snakes that comes in to tell a population to move when we are to make a new development...
Management has these tools to use, I have taken more than one POPULATION DYNAMICS course in college, I assure you that WE ARE in charge...not the animals. With that power comes responsibility of course, and right now there is no way to figure which individual snakes will be harvested from the population naturally(eaten!). I do understand the idea of a animal being a part of a whole....but I dont draw any dilineation between animals. I mean, if you are on THEIR side(this really is as simple as us vs. them)do you eat meat? At what point do you draw the line??
You keep avoiding my question and changing the subject....how many WC do you have?? What % is it in your collection(if any)??

I am not avoiding anything, and this is the subject. You asked what our thoughts were on this subject, and you are getting OUR thoughts.

I have three wc snakes, but no wc kings. Most of my collection is kings. About 30 or so. I have a pair of WC breeding Green rats and a totally abberant wc gophersnake.

On the otherhand, I have about 100 or so varanids and only one wc. A dozen or so turtles and torts and three are WC, golden greeks, which produce for me. At least I assume they were WC, got them at Daytona and they were very small.

About being anthropromorphic, hmmmmmmmmm we all are, and with good reason, WE ARE HUMAN. Everything you and I say is, so what.

About management tools. None are currently applied to our native reptiles. Take the fla tort. Hmmmmm protected, but all developers have to do is buy a permit to BURY individuals. Thousands of permits are sold a year. Look it up. Is that management? Its not only not managed for public use(to be hunted) its not managed for the exsistance of the species. Its the candle approach, they will keep burning the candle slowly, until its gone. That is, they will be destroying habitat until they are gone.

No reptile is managed on a sustainable take approach. They allow collecting until the animals becomes threatened, then its protected. There is no considerable to manage them for prolonged use by the public(to hunt or collect).

And eating meat has nothing to do with this subject. To bring that up shows your struggling to grasp this conversation.

The point is, your welcome to your opinions, but you should consider others that do not agree with you. In this case, WE HAVE GOOD REASON. You have no base to stand on. Other then you want it that way. Only your hopes and wishes.

As a field herper, who has worked with game and fish, Fish and Wildlife, and the department of the interior, I do get exposed to some reality of herp manangement. In a nutshell, there is none.

A species will get protected, but unfortunately, its habitat does not. So without habitat, there is no protection. With mammals, there is some limited protection. With mammals there is habitat management, that is, they do increase the habitats ability for a game species to overpopulate so it has to be hunted.

I wonder how it would be if they left the populations balanced. You know, do not kill off the predators???? Cheers

Frank, Anthropomorphism is giving animals human qualities.

While I know that reptiles arent managed for sustainable yield....that doesnt mean that as field herpers we cant do it. I value your data and your opinion, it is just that, your opinion. You are no more right than me or anyone else on the subject so you cant preach from a high ground. I do suggest that your anthropomorphizing doesnt lend itself well to explaining your position as a field expert. You were leaning too close to a PITA point of view(hence the meat reference).
All that aside, do you find it anecdotal or coincidental that you have relatively few WC in your collection? Is this the fewest you have had?

"Management has these tools to use, I have taken more than one POPULATION DYNAMICS course in college, I assure you that WE ARE in charge...not the animals."

This is delusional thinking.....Those courses are entirely based on theoretical computer models with all kinds of "assumptions" about a population that are simply not even close to what actually happens in nature. We probably don't know 1/2 of the variables that actually affect such things with easy to study animals like birds, how much more difficult is it to grasp what is happening with an elusive creature such as a kingsnake? I too have taken such courses, I also have studied the "population dynamics of the western rattlesnake" in the field.
We are not in charge. I also think that the animals do have the capacity to manage their population of sorts so I disagree there too.
They will drive out unwanted members and maintain the carrying capacity of the habitat either by indirect means (intraspecific competition for resources) or direct means (combat). Also predation is NON-RANDOM with weaker or less educated individuals weaned from the population (also an indirect means of population control). They do just fine without us. Habitat is key as FR stated somewhere. And resources are not constant they change from year to year as do predators, so the carrying capacity is not constant either.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

That is not how population dynamics works. The scenario you describe only works in a habitat devoid of human presence. Once we are included, involved, we change every fabric of the equation. We change the chemistry of the rain, we change the topography of the land, we change the complexity of the food web. Every little thing we do affects some creature somewhere within the system. Changing ONE thing changes the balance and sets forth a incalculable chain reaction.
The pop dy courses I took taught how to measure these differences quantifiably so regulation can be put into place. Examples include mark and recapture to develop mathmatical formulas to estimate existing populations....these data collected over time should accurately quantify changes in a given population.
For what purpose do we take or care for such a class? Because ultimately its in HUMANS best interest to learn how to keep this balance and everything alive....not for the animals as much as for US. Answers to problems not yet known could be found, cures for diseases, more and better Viagra etc. We USE everything around us to make our lives better. Some animals have more quantifiable ways to make our lives better, some dont, but over time that may change as we grow to understand them and learn their adaptive techniques, chemistry or morphology.
To say animals are in control is just too shortsighted.

Sounds more like a wildlife management course. All those theories are still just that. All your management theories are based on the theory of population dynamics. Most population dynamics are derived from theoretical algorithms. There is very little to no long term data! Also mark recapture data is suspect as your only getting the subset of the population that does not learn from the first capture, which is not one of the assumptions used in the statistics used to analyze the data. More importantly those are most likely the individuals that are contributing most to the populations recruitment (especially females which generally are more elusive).
Also humans are just another means to instigate succession which is a very natural process, a key component of evolution and species diversity. The problem is we keep destroying ALL the mature communities, and not allowing them to recover. What we are seeing now is most environments completely forced into early stages of succession with no surrounding mature communities to reestablish themselves. That is the opposite of any proper management practices and hence very counterproductive for anything other than humans and their domesticated partners, as these communities will be trying to recover for many years after humans are gone.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

My first snake was wild caught as were my first 100. I released them all after observing them for a while and they were released where they were caught. I do not have,nor will ever have, the education needed to be involved in this discussion. I just do not believe in keeping more snakes than you need to improve or start a collection. I do think that some snakes are over harvested and believe it does hurt the wild populations. However, I think that human overpopulation is the main cause of habitat destruction and therefore lower populations of many species. Hell, I am not even sure where this thread started or why! Just read what FR had written and agreed with the not using wild snakes as "throw away" snakes part. Just for the record I have two wild caught adult milks in my little collection now.

"My first snake was wild caught as were my first 100. I released them all after observing them for a while and they were released where they were caught."

I wish that more of us could say that. Your experience is a great example and you should tell it often.

"I do not have, nor will ever have, the education needed to be involved in this discussion."

I read most of your posts. You have insight worth listening to.

"I just do not believe in keeping more snakes than you need to improve or start a collection."

Touche
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Darwin Rocks!

Thanks Tony. Guess I should thank Mom because I am certain that I did not learn anything in school. But then again, mom did not teach me to write. This topic seems to be getting a little heated. I am all for a good debate/discussion, but come on guys I am pretty sure that we are all on the same side here.

Its all in fun Joe
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Darwin Rocks!

Being fairly new to this forum I was not sure. Thanks for the heads up.

I think that a kid's first snake should be an easily-kept species that the kid caught near his home. This is so, if he doesn't really enjoy the snake, it can be released without much trouble.

Why doesn't someone just post their numbers -- I can't, I'm not a pro breeder.