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questions for BrianSmith.....

kcaiman Sep 08, 2003 09:57 PM

i am 15years old and have been reasearching gators,caiman,crocs for around 2 years. i was hoping to get one this summer but became aware they are completely illegal in my state. when i get older and move to a state where it would be legal i hope to some day learn from experience the way you have(reading what you've said in other posts).

i was wondering if you've delt with any other crocodilians such as caiman or just primarily american alligators.

i also was wondering what you think about the information on crocodilian.com how acurate it is, etc.

i noticed in earier posts that you may write your own books on gators...i can't wait until you publish a book on your data you've obtained from experience. i too have read some pretty outlandish things in books about gators and would love to see a book out there that has acurate information and infomation from experience.

thanks for any response...

k

Replies (17)

kcaiman Sep 08, 2003 10:00 PM

there is this class in school i could take.. animal science.. i was wondering if you have taken classes or courses of this relationa and if you think it'd be a good thing to know for taking part in caring for gators in the future.

thanks again

k

BrianSmith Sep 08, 2003 10:51 PM

No, I never took any classes or courses. I was mostly a schoolastic failure, truth be told. School bored me tremendously. But I did manage to educate myself in my own ways in fields that I was interested in, both by reading and by hands on experience. Books are great, and one can truly learn a lot, but it isn't until one actually does hands on before one really learns about an animal or about anything in life. I learned volumes more from trial and error than from all written literature combined. But I still advocate reading all there is to be found on a subject. And more power to the folks that can tolerate schoolastic activities. More knowledge is power. Get it any way you can.

>>there is this class in school i could take.. animal science.. i was wondering if you have taken classes or courses of this relationa and if you think it'd be a good thing to know for taking part in caring for gators in the future.
>>
>>thanks again
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>k
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

BrianSmith Sep 08, 2003 10:43 PM

Thanks for the compliments. I have kept many other crocodilian species besides alligators in my 26 years keeping crocodilians. Mostly different caiman species. Few of them were what I could consider tame and so I prefered to stick with the gators.

It has been several months since I read the info in crocodile.com, so I can't site direct quotes, but I do remember a few things that were somewhat inacurate. I will have to go read it again and then come back and post, ok?

It'll be a few years yet before I begin on my books, but I'll get a signed copy to you post haste . Not only do I intend to write some on factual aspects, but I also intend to write at least one on a particularly tame gator from a "true story" point of view. She is just such a character that her story needs to be told.

>>i am 15years old and have been reasearching gators,caiman,crocs for around 2 years. i was hoping to get one this summer but became aware they are completely illegal in my state. when i get older and move to a state where it would be legal i hope to some day learn from experience the way you have(reading what you've said in other posts).
>>
>>i was wondering if you've delt with any other crocodilians such as caiman or just primarily american alligators.
>>
>>i also was wondering what you think about the information on crocodilian.com how acurate it is, etc.
>>
>>i noticed in earier posts that you may write your own books on gators...i can't wait until you publish a book on your data you've obtained from experience. i too have read some pretty outlandish things in books about gators and would love to see a book out there that has acurate information and infomation from experience.
>>
>>thanks for any response...
>>
>>
>>
>>k
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Adam Britton Sep 09, 2003 05:36 AM

Regarding your comments about crocodilian.com, I'd like to hear them too Brian. And I'm not being facetious or sarcastic. The information presented in the FAQ is and always has been a community effort. I've always welcomed relevant input from anyone, as long as their contribution is valid and given with a view to helping others.

A lot of very knowledgeable people have contributed to the FAQ, whether researchers, vets, zoo staff or private owners, and it's all the better for it. The better the resource, the more valuable it is to the community, and the more chance we have of improving both hobbyist and professional crocodilian husbandry. There's still a long way to go, but it's freely available on the net for a very good reason!

CDieter Sep 09, 2003 10:05 AM

I am interested in your comments. I am also interested in seeing your facility. I have been touring USA crocodilian facilites for a book Adam and I are doing on captive care. I would like to see more private keepers facilities.

I can be there virtually anytime. I have asked before were do you live? Would you be open to a visit? Very informal.

BrianSmith Sep 09, 2003 02:30 PM

I am open to that. We'll just have to regulate it so that you could visit when I am there. I spend most of my time in California and go to there several times a year for weeks at a time. Email me privately and I'm sure we can coordinate something. BrianSmithReptiles@hotmail.com

>>I am interested in your comments. I am also interested in seeing your facility. I have been touring USA crocodilian facilites for a book Adam and I are doing on captive care. I would like to see more private keepers facilities.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can be there virtually anytime. I have asked before were do you live? Would you be open to a visit? Very informal.
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

kcaiman Sep 09, 2003 02:53 PM

thanks for replying so quickly and efficiently. i look foward to hearing what you think on the crocodilian.com site and also to your books i was wondering if you think the best 'croc' to start with is an american alligator

thanks again

k

BrianSmith Sep 09, 2003 03:38 PM

You're welcome. Yes, actually I do think the alligator is the best crocodilian to start with. And end with. And they make the best "pets". Even though they get much larger than most caimain species (Niger being an exception) they are very docile and easy going in comparison. Caimans can be brought up to be reletively non-aggressive, but it's hard to do and in my opinion they can never be trusted completely. Now, if one has no conscience about keeping their aquatic pet in an enclosed aquarium for 40 years, then caiman make fine "pets". Besides, there is also the durability factor. Caimans are very sensitive to low temperatures, being semi-tropical/tropical animals. So for this reason alone they should not be the croc to start with. One little error with heating and there goes your pet. Alligators are the most durible reptile I have ever seen. They can handle just about any temperature extreme between 33 and 110 degrees and they just don't get sick. I have never seen a sick gator in nearly 30 years of working with them.

>>thanks for replying so quickly and efficiently. i look foward to hearing what you think on the crocodilian.com site and also to your books i was wondering if you think the best 'croc' to start with is an american alligator
>>
>>
>>thanks again
>>
>>
>>
>>k
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

kcaiman Sep 09, 2003 03:48 PM

np

BrianSmith Sep 09, 2003 04:16 PM

>>np
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Crocmaniac Sep 10, 2003 11:55 AM

no more

Crocmaniac Sep 10, 2003 06:00 PM

I am also wondering what u dont agree with on the crocfaq?

thank u

BrianSmith Sep 10, 2003 09:37 PM

Ok,... I read through the sections on american alligators and here is my take on it;

It's mostly very accurate and factual. But I disagree with a few general assertions. And keep in mind, this is more of a, "my opinion" vs "their apparent opinon" on the matter of keeping gators as pets. They really seem to hammer home that it is not a good first reptile pet to begin with. This based mainly on eventual size. And also keep in mind that I am paraphrasing here, not quoting. But they also state, quite accurately, that it takes 15 to 20 years for the animals to attain considerable size. Now,.... a few points about these facts and a few others I want to point out: I personally feel that alligators make fine first reptile pets. The main reason, unlike some of the other, smaller species that were suggested as alternative pets due to small sizes, they are about the most durable reptile one can raise. So much less is likely to go wrong resulting in death as it would be for a more delicate species being kept by a beginner herp enthusiest. Also, the croc-facs stated something to the effect that gators could be "tamed" if worked with for a lot of time. I disagree with this too. Alligators are very docile to begin with. All one really needs to do is to gain their trust and keep it. Once the alligator trusts you and understands that you are the bringer of food, you have a nice, docile pet for life. Mostly. I admit that once in a while there is an "exception gator" that is just un-approachable and no amounts of time spent will win him/her over. I know because i have one. She is just like she was 25 years ago as a juvenile. Just as all the other adults are just like they were a quarter century ago. One thing about gators is that they are pretty constant. What I mean by this is that they will usually stay the same throughout their life unless they experience some form of trauma related to a human or if it is a female temporarily with eggs or kids. I have had gators go through severe behavioral changes due to being moved, but would return to their "old selves" over a lengthy period of time (2 years on average). (When I say "moved" I mean in a vehicle from one place to another, not just dragged across the yard). Another thing about them being a good first pet is the length of time that it takes for them to become big. I think a person can grow and learn with the gator as it grows so that any additional "work" involved with keeping them, that is related to their size, should be a cinch by that time. Because the keeper's knowledge, ability, age and responsibility has grown as the gator has grown.

The last thing that I slightly disagree with is the statements concerning the cost of keeping the animals. They state that it costs more when the animal is bigger than when it is smaller. I have found it to be the very opposite. Granted, if one had to keep their gator in an indoor environment in a condo or an appartment, this would be very true. But if one has ample land to house them on and lives in a region that does not freeze, then it should be cheaper as they get bigger. Speaking of my own gators, as they get bigger their metabolisms slow down dramatically and instead of eating every day or every other day, they show interest in eating once or twice a week at best during the hot months. I usually find their fish, beef and chicken for under 1 dollar a pound. Even the big males only eat maybe 5 to 8 pounds in a good feeding. But young gators,.. man,... they can pack it in and digest it and eat again the next day. If it is cost of environment that was being alluded to, I think that could apply. My ponds are made of concrete and average between 200 and 1500 depending on size. I do the construction myself, so that is just materials. My big ponds usually require anywhere from 7 to 10 yards of concrete that cost between 600 and 900 dollars. The rest of the cost is in filtration systems. But then again, I have had really small environments that were elaborate cost me over 3,000 dollars. So it's all relative. But food-wise,.. I think the most expensive years are between 3 and 6 feet when they are still growing and eating frequently, but not yet mature.

Sidenote: I don't mean to offend any person that worked on writting the croc facs info. These are just my personal opinions on these specific matters based on my personal experiences with gators.

>>I am also wondering what u dont agree with on the crocfaq?
>>
>>thank u
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Bryan OKC Sep 11, 2003 01:16 PM

BrianSmith wrote:
>>The last thing that I slightly disagree with is the statements concerning the cost of keeping the animals. They state that it costs more when the animal is bigger than when it is smaller. I have found it to be the very opposite. Granted, if one had to keep their gator in an indoor environment in a condo or an appartment, this would be very true. But if one has ample land to house them on and lives in a region that does not freeze, then it should be cheaper as they get bigger.

Where in the United States is there "a region that does not freeze" that allows keeping of pet alligators? I thought the only states where they were legal were more northerly and had cold winters.

John_White Sep 09, 2003 07:23 AM

Kcaiman,

Have you ever considered volunteering at a local zoo? In my neck of the woods we have major zoos and smaller secondary zoos. Search Google for zoos in your state, you'll probably be surprised by the quantity.

Good Luck!

John

kcaiman Sep 09, 2003 03:35 PM

i love that idea and have thought of it already but the thing is i don't know of any that within an hour and a half! we would really want to work with gators or any reptiles at a zoo if only it was possible i'll check the search like you said hopfully somthing will come up... thanks for the suggestion!

k

BrianSmith Sep 09, 2003 03:45 PM

This is a good idea. But only if you don't mind starting with scooping monkey or polar bear poop. An old acquaintence of mine, (Harvey Fischer), used to be the curator of the Los Angeles Zoo reptile house (he's retired now). He told me that kids would volunteer all the time to try to work in the reptile house, or with Methusela and his female, (gators), but that they would never start them in the area they most wanted to work. They felt this would lead to distraction and thus a lack of work. They would start them in some other area of the zoo shoveling ostrich poop and make them work their way up the ladder.

>>i love that idea and have thought of it already but the thing is i don't know of any that within an hour and a half! we would really want to work with gators or any reptiles at a zoo if only it was possible i'll check the search like you said hopfully somthing will come up... thanks for the suggestion!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>k
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

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