Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have wondered about this for some time now.

Lets get past the "Unless you collected it yourself thing" I think its pretty safe most of us understand that.

I purchase Suriname BCC from a reputable breeder/supplier who has gone the extra mile to verify his animals as Guyana or Suriname, would it be wrong to breed them together?

If I did pair them and marketed them as "BCC" would they in fact be worth as much as a labled animal?

Now I have BCC from Peru is that ok to "mix" with BCC from Suriname?

My answers and thoughts.

I guess I am anal but I feel that I would want to be able to offer animals from certain locales, and I would not be interested in buying a known "mixed" animal for breeding purposes.

I would also tend to think that "most" of the people that are serious about their BCC will feel the same way. Please recognize that if you do not I am not saying you are not serious, just my opinion.

Now with that mind set I am going to say that will lower the value of these mixed animals.

I would not breed animals that I aquired as Suriname to ones from Guyana, and would never even think it ethical to breed Suriname/Guyana BCC to a Peruvian BCC.

I can't really consider myself a locale guy as I will never really know 100% that every animal I own is from pairings of the labled Country. With that calling a Suriname a locale is like saying North American alterna.

Suriname has localities in it and I only know of one Locale offered that I would trust. We (myself included) have such an obsession to lable them all, and often times may be the main selling point.

I would love to hear all responses,and if you are not comfortable replying on the forum please e-mail me your thoughts.

Thanks to all of you who make this such fun.

Joel Thomas

This mindset is why I find myself at odds with me even keeping these animals. I can get locality data on the stuff I pick out from Surinam, so this "only one verified Locality line" is complete BS. The reason I don't is because it will always be questioned, even if I gave specific GPS waypoints. I do believe this micro locality lableing stuff has gone too far. Its unfortunate that the lable is more of a comfort than to know who your buying from. Boas will be my first love in the Snake world, but I do find myself being drawn furthur and furthur away to other facets of the Reptile world. Stuff that people could really care less about locality data, and more about just having the animals in captivity. Somewhere along the line that gets lost in the Boa world. Something that is taken for granted. To me a Boa is a Boa, whether from Mexico or Argentina, and should be treated and respected as such. Not berated because it doesn't have a fad lable or locality attached to it. As far as I'm concerned, animals from Surinam and Guyana are the same thing, with many different phenotypes being expressed. Too many opportunities for geneflow between the two countries.

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South Central Herpetological

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Excellent points Eric, you and I have e-mailed in the past about this subject and I know we feel pretty close the same way.

You are right we really do not see this anywere else to such a degree in the hobby, a simple example look at the corn snake very few have been tagged with locale and yet it is accepted to pair animals that originated from much greater distance that the BCC in the sheild.

However as frustrating as it is people want that tag! Your point about not doing it because you don't want the hassle of proving even with way points is your most powerful point.

as far as your reply about there only being one Locale being bull[bleep]... I stated that "I" only know of one locale that is being produced that I am aware of and would trust!

You are 100% correct that is not the only locale line out there.

Thanks for your time Eric enjoy
Joel

It's not the fact that I can prove locality data. It's more about their being no middle ground. People either care too much, or not at all. The people who don't care and try to take this hobby for what it is are maligned, while the people who take it too far get caught up in lables or designations. Add to the fact that most Northern Shield animals bred in captivity look nothing like their wild counterparts, yet some people have the gall to question Imports straight from the source? I may be unique in the fact that I can see it from both the CBB and Import standpoint. I don't know where I'm going with this, maybe I'm going nuts?I guess I don't understand how hypocritical some are in regards to BCC. Or the way BCC are "graded" or marketed?
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South Central Herpetological

Maybe we are all going "nuts" but you have a valid point Eric, but do you not agree that the animals brought in as "wild type" typically do not fit the "standard"??

We search for "peaks" or "pinched saddles" and that takes a front seat to color and contrast instead of enjoying our BCC of the past...which were the true examples of BCC??

I am old school in a new class, but I know what books I choose to read! Just my opinion!!

Do you remember the day when you had a "Peruvian" and no one asked if it was "pucallpa" or "Iquitos" and when you answered it affected your sale, whether or not it eas a fine animal?

Those days are long gone...maybe for the best, and will require change on our part...

Thanks Eric

Best wishes to you and yours.

Joel

There is only one Suriname locale , it's called Suriname.

Basically one road / trail leads out of town / Paramaribo into the Jungle along the way there are a couple bridges that are falling apart. These are ID points . The large one is known as the second bridge . This one crosses the Suriname river. This area has been hunted to death but still produces plenty of animals.

After that the next stop is 10 hours of brutal travel to the town of Aporra . This is where most of the animals sold in the trade are bought from the hunters . A long the way animals can be caught here and there. Nobody gets locality data that's worth anything. The stuff is just randomly collected. There is a spot called Champion falls that's sometimes hunted it's a long boat ride from Aporra but the hunting is good there so sometimes hunters make the trip. The stuff from there looks the same as the stuff from everywhere else.I haven't seen anything that would be distinguishing in the animals collected in any part of Suriname. They all look the same.

Trappers also go into town and sell to the exporters. The dealers also trade, buy , sell and ship stuff with and for each other just like the dealers here do. Some breed . Animals go from one guy to the next and nobody cares or asks where they were caught. This how 99% of the stuff from Suriname is collected, bought and sold. Guys aren't running all over the jungle to special locales they just keep hunting the same spots over a relatively small range. If you ask the hunters where they caught something they could take you to the exact spot but there's no way they could describe it except in a general way.

As far as Redtails being shuffled between Guyana and Suriname. VERY unlikely. The reason being these snakes are common in both country's. The local hunters can bring the exporters more then could ever sell . No body in Suriname works near the Guyana boarder and nobody is going to make that trip unless there's something very special involved . At one time the Blue Tincs made the trip worth it but thats been long over.

The pic. that's me grabbing emerald on the way to Aporra.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres reptile farms Inc.

Great contribution, did that ETB nail you?

Joel

I can't remember if I got tagged grabbing that one or not. Truthfully the only thing that scares me is crossing the bridges. Ernie Eison

Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

Joel,
I have been lurking over here for years and have aquired some very nice animal from what I have learned from you guys. That being said, I am a member of the alterna forum (Gray banded kingsnakes). Over there we regard locality to the highest standards. If you did not collect an animal or recieve it from the person who collected it or are not 100% sure exactly where it came from then it is a generic animal. If you are not 100% sure then it cannot be labeled as a locality specific animal. So as to those standards a locality boa is rare.
Because it is usually hard if not impossible to trace boa "roots", the names given are just labels. They are , however, representative of animals with typical traits that people associate with that lable. I would suggest that boa keepers not get hung up on the locality thing. The best you can do is tell buyers where you got the boa from and what it was told to you to be. Be honest in what you know the history of the animal to be.

In a nut shell the locale guy's "drop" location and the BCC guy's drop "names" because I think that is all we have! (I will probably get beet up on that statement)

I agree with your post and appreciate your insight, would you breed two different locale alterna, and if you did would they be "worth" less money on the market?

Thanks

Joel

I have bred diff. locality alterna and they are definitely worth far less. They can be as beautiful as any other alterna and make a great pet. But they are worthless to locality collectors. In relation to boas it would be like breeding a guyana to a suriname. The important thing is that if sold they are sold as BCC and that all information is given to the buyer...ie guyana/ suriname parents. They may be beautiful boas which is what most people want but the history must be represented honestly. Things would be simplar in the boa community if people where satisfied with northern shield or northern BCC. I definitely see a difference between those mentioned and the peruvians. I don't think those should be bred/crossed.

Up until a year ago, I took about a four year break away from the Hobby and I have been keeping snakes for over 20yrs.

It was truly the most peace that I have had in many years, because I barely ever turned the internet on and no longer had to get into rediculous debates with people who think they know it all or listen to some guy tell me what the heck, the perfect Boa was supposed to look like.

This Hobby has truly gotten rediculous to a certain extent and I see no end in sight, until someone funds some really good research down there and actually writes a book, that is not the same old crap that has been spouted over and over again for the last 25yrs with just a different book cover, but actually writes a book with tangible and most importantly NEW AND ORIGINAL IDEAS and not just expanding a little bit on what the so-called expert said, in the book written before.

God help us!! I remember a time, when a man was proud as heck to be able to buy and own a B.C.C. and it did not matter what shipment it came in on or if it had perfect this or perfect that crap.

Just proud to own one.

On a positive note.......Jesus loves you all.....and I will go no further....JJ

Some good points John, we do need a better understanding on what these animals are.

This is not a "loaded" question, You have a male Suriname and a female Guyana you are as sure as it gets as to their origination do you breed them and just call them BCC?

Now I agree they are taxonomically the same sub-species BCC,
So the babies from this pair are still BCC and nothing different.

Now where does that stop? as the BCC has quite a large range and if you take a Peruvian and cross it with a Guyana the babies are still BCC. Where does it stop?

This lable has indeed hurt our hobby , and the lack of general understanding as to the complexities of this great animal, and our fixation on name tags has not done us or the animals any justice.

Nothing against the "morphs" but I think they have fanned the flame in our desire to try to keep our animals "pure". I have recieved many private e-mails on this subject and there are some great points.

In the end we have this EVIL DEMON the lable that is slapped on the animals we keep and we must find a way to deal with it.

Joel

Well Joel I will say one thing; " The true Purist is a rare bird these days and allot that claim to be are really not as much a purist as some may think themselves to be. "

The only person out there that would know if you were breeding a Suriname to a Guyana, is you " unless of course you posted pictures of the breeding pair of adults and they were obviously from a known bloodline. "

These days, breed a B.C.C. with huge peaks to another with huge peaks and produce a litter of babies with huge peaks, very few will ask if they are pure Suriname or pure Guyana and even if they do, most of them really still do not care as long as it REPRESENTS THAT GOOD OLE PERFECT look that so many seem to crave and throw the rest in the trash.

Before I got out and took a four year break from all of this, I had some real deal documented Locality Boas from Suriname and Guyana and even French Guiana.

Do you know how many were impressed with the data? " Very few. "

I keep things as in much in line as I can and if I cannot know the origin of a Suriname or Guyana " I am not much concerned as this stands in most cases and I am really trying not to sweat the small stuff these days. "

I just am really starting to miss Classic Looking Boas again and truly appreciating their beauty as each individual represents it and get away from this perfect mentality.

When we get so wound tight, that we will turn down a beautiful Peruvian for example, because it has a couple of Peaks on its saddles, then are we not really going to far?

Individual thing I guess?

You want to answer your own questions Joel, try to take a little time and study the Geography of South America Bro.

Study it and use a little common sense as we call it here in the south and you will see that there is really only one major thing that seperates the looks and characteristics of B.C.C. and that is the Geography from wich they came.

I do not open this up for much debate anymore, but if people would look at some very simple aspects, they would see that the same thing that seprates Northern Emeralds from ** BASIN ** Emeralds, is what seperates B.C.C. and their characteristics and why you will see Guyanas that look like Surinames and Surinames that look like Guyanas, but you will be hard pressed to ever find a Guyana or Suriname, that looks like a Peruvian OR ANY LOWLAND Basin B.C.C. from a lowland region.

Striped Emeralds, Blotted Northern Emeralds, but both Corallus Caninus, even though they look nothing alike.

Highland Boas, Lowland Boas, both are B.C.C., but Boas from these two areas are very different from each other.

Getting the Picture?

Take Care Joel.......JJ

Geography is a large factor in their diversity along with a few others, but like you I feel we need more research.

So unfortunate that as Eric pointed out lst night that people are sometimes more concerned about locale than they are about quality and who they are dealing with. That is the ugly truth IMO and only as good as the word of the person selling the animal.

I do agree that if you offer the "perfect" BCC that had "mixed" blood that most people probably wont sweat it too much. I do feel strongly that there are a whole lot of them that need that lable, if that is not true we would see a lot more people representing their animals as BCC....yourself included.

That would be one way to bring back a lot from the old days when we had shield BCC and basin BCC and that was too easy, I ask if you changed marketing you Surinam's as such and called them shield BCC how do you think that would effect your business if at all? I think almost all would ask you are they Guyana or Suriname.

Joel

Even if you reply privately...I give you my word not to share!

Joel

** QUOTE **I do agree that if you offer the "perfect" BCC that had "mixed" blood that most people probably wont sweat it too much. I do feel strongly that there are a whole lot of them that need that lable, if that is not true we would see a lot more people representing their animals as BCC....yourself included.

That would be one way to bring back a lot from the old days when we had shield BCC and basin BCC and that was too easy, I ask if you changed marketing you Surinam's as such and called them shield BCC how do you think that would effect your business if at all? I think almost all would ask you are they Guyana or Suriname.

Joel

It is rare that I have anyone go into allot of rigaramore, about me PROVING without a reasonable doubt that what they are buying, is Surinmame or Guyana.

I have nothing to hide and simply represent my animals " the way they were represented to me. "

In the end, most all are still looking for that " particular look and flavor of the day. "

Joel, I am really trying to not sweat the small stuff these days and so I give people the information that I got on the animals that I keep and sell and if it is not good enough, oh well.

O.C.D. behavior, has gotten less and less attractive to me these days and could very well put me back to needing an extended vacation from not the snakes, but the Hobby itself again.

In a perfect world, I would be a millionaire and have a collection of documented " meaning actuall paperwork " Boas from every Locality I could fund a trip to go too and get the permits or pay off the government to allow me to collect and be one of those collectors that never gets on forums or talks to people.

However, the world is not perfect and me and you are not perfect and their sure as heck no such thing as the perfect LOOKING Boa.

The Locality thing, does not bother me near as much as it use to.

My beef, is not the Marketing labels that we put on these Boas.

My beef, is that we have become so rediculous, that we put all of our desires for these animals, based mostly and sometimes even solely, on their aesthetic qualities and the rest go to the trash heap.

I do not worry about any of this affecting me as far as these Labels.

I realize more every day; " nothing has to affect you, unless you allow it to and give it power to grow! "

It is all about perception....Hmmm, perceptions.

Take Care, John J

I have no idea, who owns this Boa " found the picture on a foreign website, " but this to me is a perfect example of CLASSIC.

I have dealt with allot of Imports over the years and have been lucky enough to have friends and aquantances, that have allowed me to get my share of top picks from shipments.

Mother nature, blows us all away.

My fastest sellers have always been the unique Imports as mother nature has her perfect ways of working with genetics and creating subtlties, that I have never seen duplicated in captivity.IMO

However, a Classic looking Shield Boa like this, does not turn as many heads as it would have years ago.

These type Boas still look incredible to me and it has been pretty obvious for many years now, that our foreign counterparts, still LOVE and appreciate Locality and Classic looking representatives.

Does not mean that I believe they are better than us over seas, but that they maybe keep more of what they like, instead of what " The Next Big Look Is " that everyone wants.

If I am right about that and " feel I am for the majority, " I have to have high respect for that.

Be Blessed, John J

I agree!

Joel

See Joel " we are not so different brother. "

That Boa just gives me the giggles.

It represents everything I dreamed of years ago in wanting a B.C.C.

JJ

And by "a few" I mean I'll probably ramble endlessly like every other post I write. Sorry in advance

Hey Joel, I'm comfortable putting this out there. I care what people think, but those that get upset by this will probably never impact me positively or negatively anyway! lol

I've had this conversation MANY times with MANY people and I share Ernie's sentiment. I also share much of Eric's sentiment as well.

I believe that the topography of Suriname and Guyana prohibit the back and forth transportation of boas. I think the only way something like this would happen would be if one country was closed, and the other had been hunted to such a large degree that animals weren't readily available. Or, like Ernie said, if something of great value was at stake.

From what I hear (second hand knowledge here guys), the trappers are paid VERY minimally (like, a couple of dollars, if that) per animal. So someone PLEASE explain to me why it's a worthwhile venture to travel a couple of hundred miles from one country to another with a HUGE bag of boas (and it would have to be HUGE to justify the trip) along with whoever will come with you to help carry supplies, and a friggin canoe, up and down mountains and hills, across rivers and valleys, through jungles and who knows what else, for $50?? Yeah, $50 is ok money for someone in those countries, but it's all you'd get because of the split with the other guys. So why do it, especially when they can travel somewhere locally and make the same money! Not worth it!

I'd like everyone to take a look at these two maps (sorry they're a little big): From west to east...
Guyana (Suriname border on the right)

Suriname (Guyana border on the left)

You see those little blue squiggly lines that are almost ENTIRELY vertically oriented? Those are rivers! What's the primary mode of transportation in S. America? Boat! Wouldn't the absence of a river running East to West be a MAJOR barrier to moving animals from one country to another?

Also, you see those places that look like the paper got scrunched up and then photocopied? Those are mountains or at least VERY large hills. Ever carried a canoe and a ton of boas up a mountain, in the jungle while watching over your shoulder for wild animals and under your feet and beside you on branches for venemous snakes? Probably not the most fun.

Having said all of that, I'm SURE animals can be taken from one country to another and it may or may not be as difficult as I've made it out to be in my rather sarcastic way (it's just my way of having fun and illustrating a point - not directed at ANYONE in particular, I promise). And it's probably happened. But given that the quotas for both countries are only around 1000 each, why make the trip? It probably doesn't happen anymore.

So, the reason I went through that is to say, if your WC animal comes in on a shipment from a certain country, it's more than likely from that country and all of the second guessing in the world isn't going to change that, unless YOU collected it yourself or have EXTREMELY reliable information stating otherwise.

Now onto something that REALLY chaps my behind. Why is everything a Suri? Animals that are brought in from Guyana get called Suris! Animals from French Guiana are Suris! Animals from N. Brazil are grouped in with Suris in some cases! Animals posted on THIS and MANY other forums with a headline that says "look at my Guyana", the responses often include "Hey, nice Suri!". Just once, I'd LOVE to see someone buy a well known Suri and post the crap out of it on the forums and label it a Guyana, or French Guiana, or North Brazilian! People would LOSE THEIR MINDS! It'd be great! lol

There are SEVERAL very well known individual animals in the boa trade that have come in as Guyanans, changed hands to someone new (sold as a Guyana) and then posted on a forum as a Suri?? Why? If you want SO desperately for your animals to be a Suri, buy one! If you want SO desperately for your animal to be bred to your prized Suri but you don't want to catch any flack about the label, label the babies GUYANA SHIELD (notice it's not SURINAME SHIELD - hehe). It's an ACCURATE, TRUTHFUL, label. I think it loses the "locality" tag at that point, but it's still a LABEL. Don't lie about the origin by changing the label, that's just deplorable. In this business, all you have is your reputation, and a bad decision can follow you for YEARS. We've seen it happen.

For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding a Suriname to a Guyana - I even believe they're the same animal on a scientific level. Although I do believe that they have their own visually identifiable characteristics that a few people are able to pick out, but not most.

But if you're going to do that breeding, disclose it by calling them Guyana Shield or Northern Shield BCC. Most people don't care anyway! Most of them will probably call them Suris anyway, lol. If they did care, they wouldn't be buying MANY of the established lines of Surinames in the US. By the way, I won't be doing this, just personal preference.

FOR THE MOST PART, with regards to Guyana Shield BCC, country of origin is about as specific as it gets - and that's about it. Occasionally you'll get something like Gus' Pokigron Suriname animals, or that female that Ernie captured in Apetina that dropped PHENOMENAL babies (if I remember that story right). And also some of the Guyana stuff from Wakenaam island, etc..

I think locality boas with regards to these animals is less about keeping bloodlines apart and more about having a reliable way to trace back a particular animal to it's country of origin. I'm from the south, so this next analogy is just based PURELY on a hunch, but I have a feeling if you met a guy from the Bronx and asked him if he was from New Jersey, he'd get ticked! We're people, origin is important to us for whatever reason. It's harder to fight it than it is to accept it.

Another point that was brought up is the marketing of offspring and WC animals. I do look for WC animals occasionally and if I find an animal I like, but do not trust the source, I bail out of the deal. I do this because I WANT to know the country of origin of the animal I'm buying because I ONLY have Guyana BCC in my collection. And it's a small collection - no room for another locality - hence, no Surinames.

Also, Eric made the point that many CBB animals look NOTHING like their wild counterparts. I agree wholeheartedly!! This is one reason I'm striving to obtain WC animals that have a look that will be reproduceable in the F1 offspring. I feel like I did a VERY good job with my latest breeding of producing babies that looked like their WC parents. Things that turn me off in CBB animals is the dorsal-lateral dashes running too far into the tail and the saddles not being a solid or semi-solid color. Save for the aberrant animals. I don't WANT to produce animals with those characteristics. I want an animal with approximately 21 total saddles, 6-9 red "tail" saddles. Relatively even spacing between the saddles (unless aberrant). Speckling to a greater or lesser degree. And some decent color. Bold contrast is a plus as is a well marked head and face. That's what my WC animals look like!

By the way, Eric. I would buy from you in a heart beat. I would have already bought that 8' Guyana female from you if I had a place to quarantine her big @$$!!! My quarantine area consists of blanket boxes, and that just won't work for her! lol

Having said all of that, I can appreciate a CBB animal for the enhancements that selective breeding can make. But, I buy for my tastes. I also like to know that if and when I do produce litters, that I can have a customer base that feels confident buying any animals I decide not to keep. And I feel like the more information I can give, and the closer their animal looks to it's WC counterpart, the better chance I'll have of moving that animal if I desire.

Wow... this is long... are you still reading this? Really? Why? lol

I'll shut up now. I feel like my position has been WELL documented here and anything I left out could probably be assumed fairly accurately based on what I DID say.

Good stuff!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

lol....a few thoughts...lol

When I saw that caption I thought to myself "no way can he only have a few thoughts".

My thinking on this subject.

1 - they are the same animal and I would rather we just called them Guyanan shield, but that is not the market we are in

2 - because the market is what it is - GIVE FULL DISCLOSURE!!!! While it might not matter to you - it might to the buyer. Don't be a jerk and sell something just to sell it. There should be a section in the BOI for exactly that. Don't make the assumption the buyer won't care. The locality BCC market has changed over the past 10 years.

KNOW I can't be short and sweet! lol

I'm going to reach out to you from now on when I want to say something in a condensed fashion. You're quite obviously MUCH better at that! lol

jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

Ha! kevin I would rather call them Suriname shield!! It will never end!
Your Momma! LOL...

Joel

Joel - I read your post and thought I actually typed "Surinam Shield"....I was multitasking last night and it wouldn't have been the first time I did that.

BTW - still fighting the battle in my head over that last topic you counseled me on.....women they have 1/2 the money and 100% of.....

Man that is more than a few thoughts!!LOL..

I really do appreciate your input, as these are not really questions that I "need" to have answered, but "want" answered as objectively as possible, you have done so to the UMPH! degree as always Ha!
MR INCREDIBLE is not a common representative of the WC "Flavor" that comes from Guyana?...I know why you choose that animal, to make some awesome BCC that are marketed as "Guyana"...and with out question are Guyana.

So am I "retentive" to ask that if I have a "Suriname" female that I would want to pair with Mr. Incredible and you (and he) obliged that we could market the babies as N. shield BCC and I or you would get the same response and interest if they were marketed as"Mr.Incredible" X "Rose" "Guyana"? Not really a great anology based on the quality of the animals you have ...but do you see my point?

Just an abstract thought, they would be Mr. Incredible Guyana X miss peaky momma Suriname, now it sounds like the AKC!...Maybe we should have shows like Westmienster to make our animals earn championship status!LOL... Boas with pedigrees?? maybe a new market Ha!

On the level JB I agree they are the same subspecies, but my underlying question is why we (you, myself and others) state that they are all N.shield BCC and still market them as Guyana or Suriname?

I know this is a touchy subject that has no solid answer at this point, and I hope you do not take offense to any of my opinions, but just for the record my "opinions" have been changed many times before!

JB I always value opinions that make me think...Thank you!

Be well
Joel

===MR INCREDIBLE is not a common representative of the WC "Flavor" that comes from Guyana?...I know why you choose that animal, to make some awesome BCC that are marketed as "Guyana"...and with out question are Guyana.===

You're right. I definitely chose him because he looks nicer than most. Having said that, he was born in captivity to a WC gravid female, do he DOES in fact represent the WC phenotype, just the "nicer" (in our perception anyway) side of the spectrum. I know that EVERYONE uses some sort of criteria for "good looks" when choosing breeding stock. Honestly, does anyone just call up an importer and say "gimme what you have laying around, I don't care what it looks like" and then take all of the animals they have from a certain locale/country, and throw them in a big breeding pit? There's ALWAYS some sort of selective breeding going on.

===So am I "retentive" to ask that if I have a "Suriname" female that I would want to pair with Mr. Incredible and you (and he) obliged that we could market the babies as N. shield BCC and I or you would get the same response and interest if they were marketed as"Mr.Incredible" X "Rose" "Guyana"? Not really a great anology based on the quality of the animals you have ...but do you see my point?===

I agree that the animals wouldn't be marketed as easily and certainly wouldn't sell for the same price if they looked exactly the same.

===On the level JB I agree they are the same subspecies, but my underlying question is why we (you, myself and others) state that they are all N.shield BCC and still market them as Guyana or Suriname?===

Here's your answer my curious friend. Because we have the ability to be MORE accurate. That's why! I mean, if you're giving directions to your house, are you just going to tell someone that you live on the north side of whatever city? Or are you going to tell them your neighborhood? Or your street? Or your house number, the side of the street, the color of your house, and what kind of car to look out for in the driveway? IMO, in the world of boas, more info (if worthwhile) is ALWAYS better. And to me, if all else is equal between two animals but one has more accurate (and verifiable) locality info, then to me it is worth more $$.

===I know this is a touchy subject that has no solid answer at this point, and I hope you do not take offense to any of my opinions, but just for the record my "opinions" have been changed many times before!===

Absolutely NO offense taken bro! After my post, you think I have the right to feel offended? lol Not a chance man!

Thanks for posting back my friend!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
*You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.*

I have been up way past my bedtime (deer season) but would love to continue, if you entertain.

My reply will come tomorrow, if you don't want my 2 cents throw it in the wishing well...I will take no offense.

Thanks for making this hobby so much fun!

Best wishes!

Joel

I label my boas by country of origin when known. Suriname, Guyanan, Trinidad, Costa Rican, Honduran what ever. ......because that's where they came from. To me it's basic common sense that has no scientific reason. Taking it further saying the animals are from Pokigron, Apetina , Tepu , Esssequibo or whatever is for the most part inconsequential . If someone really wants this type of information that's a personal choice. Tons of animals are collected around these places. There are no physical characteristics that define any locale when talking about these types of boas. Any animal brought in from Guyana or Suriname might be a Pokigron or a Essequibo river or a wherever. There's nothing special about any of them. With these snakes what makes a particular animal special is it's individual characteristics not it's locality .

They ALL hunt the same places. They all get animals from each other or sell and ship for each other. There are no exclusive relationships between exporters and importers or even hunters for that matter.

Like I said nobody's going to any secret remote spots .
This is because ,

A. , Accessibility , you can`t get to many places . Its very limited where you can travel.

B COST, to plan out a trip to a new location is not cheap, to go by boat not only takes forever but boats require fuel / expensive fuel. The best way is by chartering a plane. Anyone want to talk about what's involved with that ? Expense , risk and the very likely possibility that you won't find anything that you couldn't have found at one of the usual spots. Maybe you won't find anything at all.

C. Familiarity the plan is to go where you know the animals are and when their there. Even going out to the known areas is an ordeal. No map can explain how vast these regions are. 95% will never be collected. What we see in the trade represents a faction of the animals from a fraction of the range.

It was brought up about the " Basin " and the " Northern Type" emerald tree boas. This is a good example to show just how off names can be. You can find animals that look exactly like " Northern Type" emeralds in the southern most portion of the range and everywhere in between. I think you could find perfect type examples of Guyana / Suriname shield boas in Brazil , Peru , Ecuador pretty much anywhere. I can't stress it enough that what we see is only a small faction of the animals from a small fraction of the range. If Suriname or Guyana ships out 500 boas this is only 500 out of a population that is probably in the hundreds of thousands maybe millions and is only collected from the edge of this population.

The question . I wouldn't breed Guyanans with Suriname's because it's just the way I think. There's no reason not to other then personal choice. Personal choice is always what captive breeding comes down to.

Back to the Q , Look at what else comes from these country's, All the same stuff but nobody is worried about crossing their Guyana Redfoots with their Suriname's. Does anybody sell Guyana monkey frogs ? So why are boas different ? My reason is just choice nothing to deeper. As far captive animals bred past the point that they no longer look like the WC types . I don't think it's even close to that.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

What I want to know Ernie is -- What is the best time of year to go down there? Is there a difference between Highland/Lowland or Shield/Basin times/seasons?
Beginning of the Rainy Season or what? Breeding Season or Birthing Season?
I will be going one of these days before I die, provided I live a full life and don't die an early death.
One of my life goals.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The animals move when it rains, that be your best chance of seeing numbers. When it's dry, everything is holed up, so it would take someone with collecting experience to find them for the most part.
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South Central Herpetological

Home run Ernie!

I never will forget the first e-mail that I sent to Mike years ago in Guyana.

I had bought a pair of Import Guyana Boas, that were some of the most unusual and well colored Boas, that I have ever seen and have regreted ever since selling them.

Mike caught them on Wakemon Island on the Essiquibo and I really convinced myself at the time, " MAN!! Boas from that Island must all be spectacular! "

That was pretty dellusional thinking, but hey " it takes what it takes to grow up and come to better understandings. "

Anyway, I had sent Mike an e-mail at that time, asking if he could get some more as I just knew that he must had found the Holy Grail Area down there.

Needless to say; " He laughed and responded that those were exceptions to the rule and everything on that Island went from ugly to pretty just like any other place. "

No differences, no exceptions.

In fact, in a conversation we had earlier today, I asked; " In all of your hunting and travels in Guyana and Suriname, have you EVER EVER, walked into an area and seen a population of Boas that you knew were the most beautiful Boas that you have ever seen and go back and frequent that area for the sole purpose of getting as many of these exceptional Boas as you could? "

Of course, the response was what I knew it would be; " He Laughed and laughed pretty hard. "

.......John J

Well put,
I always enjoy reading information from people with hands on knowledge.

Do you still travel down there?

Joel

I haven't been down there in a few years the way things are it's tough for me to leave my place anymore. To much responsibility for me to run off for weeks at a time . If I'm gone for two days it makes me nuts. Naturally I'm in contact with all the guys down there regularly. Maybe in June .

" Beginning of the Rainy Season or what? Breeding Season or Birthing Season? " John C

The answer is yes. All these things coincide. When it rains animals move , some breed other give birth. In the dry it completely sucks. It's a total waste of time to look for animals during the dry season.

Disclaimer . I'm sharing my experiences and opinion as best and objectively as I can. There are a million things that nobody knows. There are also a million things that are known but not talked about .

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptiles Farms Inc.

Dude, I've got a big bin you could take and quarantine her in, Does that sweeten the deal?.............
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South Central Herpetological

OOPPPsssss............ forgot this

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South Central Herpetological

I have also checked out this female several times Eric and you should try to get a good picture of her outside or something to show what she really has going on as far as color.

Many years ago, an animal like this one would have been revered and appreciated for being just a really nice and well conditioned Boa.

Now, fewer respond to Boas of this kind, because they will not get all of the Ooos and Ahhs, that a Suriname or Guyana with huge peaks ect, will receive.

It " at times " can be like a bunch of HighSchoolers sitting around trying to show the next guy they have a nicer collection and then the next guy will base his wants, on what he sees on the internet getting the most attention.

There is nothing wrong, with everyone wanting and desiring different things.

However, is the person basing what they like on what " they themselves, really like " or what someone else SAYS is the next Great Look?

Only the individual can answer that...........

JJ

Thats the thing, she doesn't really have any "color". She can go from bright silver, to gun metal gray, to dirt brown and everywhere in between. Personally, she's too "clean" for me. I like the specks, smudges, and lines. I'll take a Boa like that any day. I wish I could of got to Don before you.............
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South Central Herpetological

Eric that one is super nice, too bad I spent all my snake money for the year!

It is truly about contrast and she has got it!

Joel

Ok I went back and read your post again, you have very well thought out opinions and you are obviously a very decided person, with a great ability to put pen to paper.

I agree completely that it makes no financial sense to drag boas "over the mountains and through the woods" to make a couple bucks, that was not one of my questions but I am very glad that you and Ernie brought that point up. I think that knowledge will help some have more understanding.

To Eric's point about many animals that are CBB not resembling WC animals is a good one as well and a testiment to what some of the breeders are trying to accomplish, what would the chances be of Mr. incredible and Rose hooking up in the wild.

I still do believe that I will call them Suri or Guyana based on how they were represented to me. I also feel your angst about everything being called Suriname...Only my thought with only my experiance, back in the early eighties I worked in a small exotic pet shop and would ride out to the animal wholesaler to purchase reptiles and other stuff.

I will always remember that back then the animals offered as Guyana always seemed to be dark and really not too many of them.
There were always plenty of Surinams to choose from and I think possibly they just took hold of the market faster. and Suriname became the buzz word.

All this is just an offering of an opinion based on a my limited exposure to these import animals and possibly why people still to this day call or even change names to "Suriname"

I would feel safe to say there are many more people working with Suriname animals than Guyana, but I think that will start to balance out soon as I am seeing alot fantastic examples of Guyana boas popping up...Eric has that big girl that to me has it all especially contrast!!!!

Oh yeah thanks for teaching me what those little blue lines and crumpled up paper look are on a topo map! LOL... can you tell me how to see the tree's? Ha!

Thanks for your time and cotribution JB

Be well
Joel

Can't it simply be said that they are a polymorphic animal from a broad range? The gene pool was set long before modern man came on the scene. The gene pool knows no borders. We've got plenty of reptile examples like that here in the States. Don't we? They are not differentiated Taxonomically by "Country of Origin" are they?
The best we can do is say, where they came from to the best of our knowledge, or qualify them into characteristic based categories, as in -- "Guyana Type has these features", "Suriname Type has these features", etc. They're all classified as Boa constrictor constrictor as far as I know. Aren't they?
Why not create a "club" or peer group, to get together, compare notes, do the vetting, and come up with a standard consensus on identification and nomenclature? Most would rather just have this discussion periodically here, I'll bet.
I'm of the opinion personally, that some examples that have been so inbred over so many captive generations, that they look nothing like the wild type, are nothing more than "Morphs", no matter how pure and precise the origin. They have in effect been genetically altered phenotypically to the point or no return.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I tell you what gentlemen.

Me and Ernie have had our debates years ago, but I respect the crap out of Ernie, at least to the extent that he has been down there many times and has a wealth of knowledge that most do not.

However, you really want to be enlightend, give Big Mike at Eldorado Reptiles a call sometime when he is not too busy.

Mike is not a new guy on the block as he hunted for Pete Bandre for many years and has been all over Guyana and Suriname and Venezuela and when I say " all over " I mean " all over. "

I feel like I have known Mike for years as I received many incredible Boas that he has caught over the years and Mike was able to tell the EXACT origin of the majority of the Boas he sent in and now brings in, but I have only talked directly with him a few times.

He will be the FIRST ONE to tell anybody that you could take two bags of Boas, one from Suriname and one from Guyana and you would not have a PRAYER in differentiating the two locals based on outward characteristics alone.

That is why I have laughed so many times over this subject; " Do not argue with me, argue with the guys that have actually been there and captured thousands of Boas. "

Once you have talked to the guys that " REALLY KNOW, " you quickly realize that there is nothing more to debate.

There ar two types of B.C.C. and that is Lowland and Highland.

Anything else is simply a Label for Marketing.IMO

Now, does that mean that we should not keep Locales straight, if we are TRULY TRULY lucky enough to know a Boas origin?

No, I would choose myself to keep them straight for my own pleasures though, moreso than wether or not the animal was more Marketable with a specific label, because if it is a pure B.C.C. and a dang nice one, it will sell regardless and most of us know that to be fact?

However, here is my problem with the PURIST MENTALITY, if what I am going to say actually applies to the given individual and only those individuals can answer it within themselves.

IMO it is not right for some Breeders/Keepers that are Purist " wich I am to a certain extent, " to label a Kajana Suriname or a Pucallpa Peruvian " just examples " and then describe them as to what they look like and then make bold statements to other people that claim to have them and say; " Well your Pucallpas do not look like mine or your Kajana Surinames do not look like mine and so they must be fakes or mutts, ect.ect. "

When we do this, it is not only short sighted, but rediculous and I use to be just as bad about it as others I am referring too and am very glad that I finally came out of the rediculous fog.

A very respected breeder " of course I will not mention the name, " actually had the nerve several months ago, to send me some pictures of some small Peruvians and made the statement, that they were Rediculous Mutts and not even Peruvian at all.

Now for the shocker!

I actually kept my mouth shut for once and just let him go on and on about how fake these Boas were and that they were Mutts or not even Peruvian at all.

It was very hard for me to contain myself, but I figured I would not contribute to hurting his feelings and showing him that he was once again being way too judgemental and I was pretty proud that I could be gentle under the circumstances " even though my Blood was running colder by the minute. "

Now, how do I know he was wrong?.......Good Question!

Because the Boas that he was referring too, I know for 110% FACT. were Imported from Peru and I know the guy that Imported them and EXACTLY were they came from and they were REAL PUCALLPAS with all the Documentation.

Just another example of how we can all be way to rediculous at times and that even the " So-Called " experts can and do very often, get it really wrong.

Do not take this as negative, just take it.

John J

Good point on the PURIST MENTALITY

Joel

I'd like to clarify my last regarding this -- I believe, and I could be wrong, but most Bcc aficionados feel that Suriname and Guyanan and XXX Locality Peruvian have an identifiable look to them. I'm not saying it's a law, just a common consensus. Actually it could be the differentiation of Highland from Lowland, now that you mention it.
I'm just saying the animals in question should be designated as XXX "Type", if no better authenticity of origin exists.
This is generic nomenclature, just a little bit more characteristically refined than Bcc.
Of course Locality trumps generic type.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Maybe this should be a different thread, but your question made me think, why are different locality Bcc not taxonomically distinct? I'm not sure whether or not the Bcc from Guyana and Suriname are the same animal, maybe Guyana Shield or Northern Shield is enough, but compared to Bcc from Peru and Brazil, for example, they seem to be very distinct. But, taxonomically, aren't they all the same thing...Bcc?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, you've probably guessed I am not a Bcc aficionado. Just a curious forum reader...

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Man, that is my "politically" correct way of trying to answer this nasty question in the BCC world...probably a mute point!

I am trying to do so with out turning it in o a heated debate.

There are no stupid questions, except the ones that are never asked!

Thank you for your time.

Joel