Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know this is a touchy subject for some, but, is there a notable amount of wobble in spider crosses (aka bumblebee, cinnabee, bumblebelly, etc?) Is it something that can be diluted by breeding back to het animals - like if you breed a bumblebee to a super pastel to get killer bees, can the wobble still be fairly noticeable?

Anything that exhibits the spider gene can have the wobble whether it's a spider or a spider combo - the potential will always be there.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Are you serious?
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

I recently had a post on this, yes it does show up in crosses. I don't think there is anyway to breed it out, and from what I've understood some animals in the same clutch will wobbel while others don't. Correct me if I am wrong. I recently got a bumbelbee who cork screws, he seems to be totally fine outside of that, and I've been feeding him on a more frequent schedule than my others and he seems to be doing it less, maybe I am just not noticing it as much. I would also note he has an amazing appetite and feeding response, best out of any snake I have ever kept!

ok. spiders wobble! always have, always will! it's a quirk not a health issue! whats the big deal? it's an awesome morph that makes some awesome combos!

Its some little something that comes with the spider gene. Thats just the way it is. My male spider does not wobble, he has made several babies that do, including a bee. People need to accept it. Spiders wobble, caramels are prone to kinks, Super Cinns have the "pinched" nose. Things like this happen when you dabble with genetics and jack with nature. We are propagating things that if in the wild would die or be eaten much sooner than a wild type animal. Its amazing that some of the wild caught morphs made it to adulthood.

Wrong again. Your acceptence of kinked caramels and deformed super cinnamons/black pastels is old thinking and tired. Demand quality from your purchases, other breeders and the market and industry!

So many people have bred out their caramels and produce perfect babies it has become rare to even see kinked ones any longer because people take quality seriously and put in the time and effort to get them bred out and reduce the inbreeding. Same with the super cinny/black pastels. By Breeding the two unrelated yet very similar genes to each other or by breeding very outbred animals of the same gene to each other many many people are producing flawless supers!

Your attitude of being satisfied with flawed, damaged, inferior animals makes me sad. Cheers to those who took the time and effort and set the greed aside to pump out volume of junk for money, and breed out their animals to produce flawless, superior quality animals that are making your statements about "caramels kink", "super cinnys have messed up jaws" obsolete and untrue.

Are you sure about outbreeding helping with either caramels or super cinny/black pastel? Maybe it's just that more are being produced now so more perfects with the same rate as always and less incentive to show/keep the imperfects. With so many of the original imported caramels being reported kinked and as much outbreeding as has been done with both projects I'd be very surprised if outbreeding is the solution to either problem.

Also, how many non spinning spiders have you produced?

With all three problems I suspect they are just sporadic side effects of the actual mutations themselves. If that is the case there is still some small chance of outbreeding and selection picking up something to compensate but our best bets might be concentrating on environmental variables that might explain why some individuals don't show each morph's tendency for the problems.

black pastel x black pastel=supers with facial deformaties and kinked spines. black pastel x cinnamon= a dozen people produced perfect supers just the past couple seasons and birth defects in them are not even around much anymore now that people know the two forms are compatible for making supers.

caramels were almost always kinked, now caramels have been bred out as have hets and bred out for glows, pins, clowns, etc and not only are the combos not kinked but the normal caramels from the breedings are not kinked.

So have you been there to see these clutches hatch? Just because people only post photos of the perfect caramels, does that mean they're the only ones in the clutch. I know of quite a few kinked caramel crosses. Will the general public ever see photos of them? NO, of course not they go in the freezer or if it's minor are held back for future breeding stock. If every caramel line out there has kinking then how is crossing them to each other going to fix it? Right now I think everyone is trying to find a fix for kinking through incubation manipulation(temps and humidity). Also, for a morph that has been around for quite a while you don't see a ton of them available, could have something to do with kinking and not wanting to sale or show those animals.

Look at spiders. How many were sold over how many years before people started going public with the spinning issue. I know I paid $10k for mine and didn't have the slightest clue about the issue. Once I saw it I asked around and learned everyone who had them already knew but were keeping it quite or at least not being open about it. So if all those breeders don't mention the problem when you're spending $10-20k, do you think they're always honest about other issues?

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

I would just like some additional confirmation that cinnamon X black pastel helps at all with the kinking. Maybe cinnamon X cinnamon only has problems 50% of the time (just a guess, maybe it's more) and two dozen people tried cinnamon X black pastel thinking it would help and the same dozen got lucky (and are convinced outbreeding is why) as would have with cinnamon X cinnamon and you just don't see the other unlucky dozen.

Wrong! The fact that it is a genetic problem makes it a very real health concern. Any birth defect can and should be. My spiders and spider combos do not have any symptoms, not one, at any time and neither do any of their offspring. When I purchased my initial spider and yellow belly spider I was extremely careful to be sure that they had zero wobble, stargazing, head rolling, etc..

For starters, it is much less appealing to customers to buy a defective animal and yes, no matter what your opinion, the neurological defecits displayed are very much a defect and any animals with them are considered "B" grade in the market automatically.

When you breed animals that have obvious genetic flaws don't you expect to get babies that have it also? If you line breed or even just breed back partially related animals you run the risk of producing animals that have difficulty eating, look to the uninformed consumer like they have IBD or some similar affliction, and potentialy it leads to even bigger problems.

Do we know how much worse it can get or what else it can lead to? Not many spider x spider clutches out there. Most people have bred them to other genes to make combos so we have not seen the worst of it. The fact that there is no visual super spider is a blessing too in that has prevented more related, defective spiders being bred to each other.

If you think about the "normal" gene being a wild gene and the morphs being pedigree....it makes it sound alot like dogs doesn't it? I raise Rottweilers, I've never had one live past 11-12 years old, reason is cancer. My American Bulldog will eventually have health problems, English Bulldog can't breed on their own for the most part, some dogs have breathing problems. It's not going to help any to complain about it, people will still breed bad quality animals for the sake that most won't pay 1200$ for a male pastel anymore. If you think it's not right, don't buy these animals or deal with these breeders who do and the problem should fix itself over time. I think we should just kill this topic because it's a very touchy one and people get worked up way too much on both sides of the the argument. I respect everyone's say but how many times can we bring this up and talk about it?
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Pastel 0.1
Spider 0.1
Normals 2.1
Het Pied 0.1
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 0.1

guy here breed 2 [bleep] English bulldogs......I said C-section, he said no, I never do and they have the pups.....why not?...

......I know ...most do......but it may be avoided more than we think...(just some input, not arguing,I don't do dogs)

and all spiders have the wobble......don't care what anyone says

......and it is a health issue
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LOL......

WRONG! spiders that don't wobble can and do produce offspring that wobble. some wobble more as hatchlings and the wobble decreases over time. you can't guarantee the offspring won't wobble even if the sire or dame ehibit no signs of wobbbling. you're either lucky that you haven't had any wobble, or you've ignored the wobble or your just shooting BS!

Some wobble more as they get older too.
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Pastel 0.1
Spider 0.1
Normals 2.1
Het Pied 0.1
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 0.1

I bought a pair of spider het ghosts from Brian Sharp neither exhibited the spinning, stargazing, or anything but the male produced 1 ghost and 5 spiders het ghost, and only one of the spiders has the head tilt thing thats it. So some have it and some dont.
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

The negativity in this thread sucks! I am always getting attacked for being negative and hear I am telling you to see the positives in people's hard work and I am getting back: "everyone lies" "all the animals suck" "people are all hiding the truth". Well honestly, yes I think I have seen quite a few animals and clutches and yes I see improvment. If you want to walk around with such lousy attitudes and believe everyone is dishonest and every thing is a lie, maybe it is time to go somewhere else! with all the doom and gloom with what is happening right now here in the USA, here in Michigan and in the world as a whole, I have absolutely had my fill of BS and negativity and come here for a break from it!

Yes I have a good friend and know of a couple other people right here that have nice and perfect carmel glows, caramel pins, caramels and others. No there are not hidden kinked siblings. I have sold a couple dozen spiders so far this year and not one wobbled and not one person has told me of any of them wobbling. Last year I sold plenty of spiders and none wobbled. I have an adult male spider I raised from a hatchling that has never exhibited any of that behavior. I have an adult male spider yellow belly that I raised up and he has never wobbled. My friend that produced the spider yellow belly told me he has no wobbling in his animals. The breeder that produced my spider told me he has no wobbling spiders. WOrk from facts, not suppositions and conjecture!

Randy, if I parked 1,000,000 white Ford Broncos on your front lawn and told you that Ford still made white broncos I am sure that you would say it is just luck that I found those samples and it isn't really a fact that they are manufacturing them! Why do you have to always assume that the negative is the truth???

Yeah......but sometimes you can't tell people anything. I work at a gun store and a friend of mine swears up and down you have to register every gun you buy when in fact the paperwork you do is a background check on only "you" the buyer and they don't have a clue what your buying. So I've learned that people would rather believe hear-say and what they see in movies than the truth anymore.
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Pastel 0.1
Spider 0.1
Normals 2.1
Het Pied 0.1
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 0.1

That depends on the state you live in.
Certain states DO a 'registration' on every gun, even though it's really against the law.
The NICS system is waived in Michigan, my home state, and for handguns, they require a 'safety inspection' of the gun in question, at the local sheriff's office, which fulfills the NICS requirements.
The 'safety inspection' is nothing more than matching the numbers stamped on the gun to the numbers on the permit, running a background check on you, a check on the gun's history, and a short basic 20 question test on state gun laws. Possessing the gun without the 'safety' certificate is against the law. The cert is kept in the selling dealers records stapled to the national form (And surrendered to the ATF upon request, audit, or close of business.), the local sheriff's office, and one kept with your gun. This is registration. Gun laws vary from state to state.

OK, I misspoke. The NICS check isn't waived.
It's done at the sheriff's office in person, not by the selling dealer. The only way to bypass this is to have a concealed weapons permit, and fill out the paperwork. They figure you'll pass the NICS check if you have a CWP.
Also, additional paperwork is filled out by your dealer if you purchase more than 1 gun at a time, although at some selling dealers compliance is lax.

I guess the question would be then .... If your customer asked you to give them a guarantee in writing that their spider will never wobble and none of their spider offspring would wobble - would you do it? Would you be willing to maybe replace any wobbling offspring that might be produced with your own non-wobblers?
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Could a breeder insure his English Bulldogs wouldn't have addison's disease, bloat, cataracts, or how about heart failure? I'm not saying it's right to breed these animals but while the spider gene may cause wobble or etc does it kill the animal? Some dog breeds have a very high rate of cancer, yet they still get bred. I own a spider and he doesn't shake at all, but if he did, it wouldn't bother me just because it's not taking away his quality of life.
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Pastel 0.1
Spider 0.1
Normals 2.1
Het Pied 0.1
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 0.1

Spiders wobble -- it's not a big deal for most -- I'm of the belief that not all do but all have the propensity for it -- so I'm always interested to see those that are adamant that their line does not wobble - if they are willing to put their money and reputation where their mouth is.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Your logic is flawed though. You are asking me in fact to guarentee the quality of whatever animal they may breed the spider to as well.

Not really what are the chances that the other animals will carry a gene that will cause their snakes to wobble?
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

nearly everyone that I know is breeding combo x combo so the odds are very good. how about you ask around and see if I have ever sold one? you seem to be gunning for me because you dissagree with somebody being able to have healthy snakes that are not a mess.

Yeah people are doing combos but spinning is only related to spiders, so unless they do spider to spider there shouldn't be a problem. Do you guarantee the spiders you sell to never spin? I've had more then a couple people tell me their spiders are completely normal and within 15 seconds of seeing them I could tell they have the issue.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

How about you Eric? Do you guarentee your animals? Do your spiders do anything they shouldn't Eric? I am pretty sick of people laying this truck load of s@#@ on me when they should be going back and asking Kevin why his spiders are f'ed up and what caused it? How about some honesty??? I am not the originator of the spider. My f'in spiders are great and do not act like garbage animals, period. Most of that is because I checked them out first and got them from people I trusted to tell me the truth. Ask Lindsey, it was his animal to begin with, the first spider, Lindsey, did the the first spider act like it had IBD? I doubt that if it did he would have paid such a massive price for it! So we are back to Kevin, I don't see any one taking him off the pedestal they have created for him to ask him how and when the spiders got messed up?

Again, where are the people you have that have bought spiders and bees from me on kingsnake that have found them to be flawed? There are none.

LOL. Anger Management is all I have to say here. I will email the rest.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

The basic questions are:

1. Is the spinning a symptom of the spider mutation or some separate genetics that can be bred in or out of spider lines.

2. If it's the spider mutation it's self, why do some spiders spin badly and others not at all or at least not noticeably.

For #1, as much as spiders have been outbred over the years while still keeping the trait consistently I have to believe its part of the mutation. Just like the exact expression of the spider pattern and elements like how high up the sides the white comes vary from spider to spider spinning could be another spider trait with variability.

Question #2 is much more interesting. On the one hand you have breeders who claim all spiders spin to some extent and on the other you have some who swear theirs don't. Could there be some environmental factor from diet to incubation to lighting that could trigger an innate tendency to spin in spiders? If we could figure out why some have little or no expression of the spinning aspect of the spider mutation perhaps we could use that information to make spinning spiders a non issue.

Selective breeding is generally the first place to look for solutions to problems like this but it’s based on the idea that a separate gene than the mutant one we want to keep is causing the problem and with spider, caramel, and cinnamon I don’t think that’s the case.

I'm not gunning for you just wondering since you are so sure that your line of spiders does not have any wobble issues if you'd be willing to guarantee it. It shouldn't require excuses or hemming and hawing about blue moon what ifs. I find it ironic that people that make this declaration of perfect spiders won't stand behind their product -- hell it might even bring back some of the diminishing value of the morph if it were true.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Thats alot like selling a baby and putting a guarantee on it that when it's breeding size it'll be breedable. You can't do that, plus like I've said before, does it lower his quality of life if he has it? No, it does not, mites on the other hand do. I've seen mites at a reptile show on animals before, thats a very bad thing to do.
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Pastel 0.1
Spider 0.1
Normals 2.1
Het Pied 0.1
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 0.1

"Thats alot like selling a baby and putting a guarantee on it that when it's breeding size it'll be breedable. "

Not at all -- breeding is an instinct - the wobble is a genetic trait (or a condition linked to a genetic trait) -- if you claim to have a line that does not wobble then you are claiming a genetically superior line of animals. All I'm wondering is if it's true why not guarantee it. There is a whole market of people that do not work spiders because they don't want to deal with the wobble -- if you have a line that will not wobble -- there is a whole new marketplace you could corner - but you'd have to be able to guarantee against the wobble.

My questions aren't really about the wobble itself but the ethics behind claiming something you're not willing to back up in writing.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

LOL, how about an albino line that isn't yellow or doesn't have pink eyes?
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Pastel 0.1
Spider 0.1
Normals 2.1
Het Pied 0.1
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 0.1