Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Whew! That was extensive.

Umm did I miss something? I was hoping to click and read data supporting housing kings together.
Foot Hill Reptiles

I have kept kings in groups for 44 years and still going.

To a point of many of the lines being bred now are from those groups.

Sir, thats lots and lots of data over a very long period.

The problem with these groups is, you must understand kingsnake behavior, if you do not THERE will be problems.

On the otherhand, keeping them singly in tubs does not require much actual knowledge at all. It only requires you follow a set recipe.

Which is fine except to ME its boring and no fun. Its also my opinion, that keeping animals SHOULD BE FUN.

Also from seeing how outraged many of you get, your not having all that much fun. hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh yea, keeping them in groups also teachs you about the actual behavior of snakes, which again to me is fun and keeps me interested. So the ability to keep learning HOLDS MY ATTENTION. A snake in a shoebox for 25 years or so, would not and would be boring as heck. Cheers

Frank nobody denied that it can be done, least of all me because I've done it and still would if I had the room. What got people's ire were definitive statements, to paraphrase, like "they only eat each other if starved" or they "only drink when dying of thirst". Such statements greatly understate what is needed to keep kings together successfully. I'm glad to see that you've recently moderated your tone and avoid making such absolute statements. I also like to think this change is in part because of rigorous give and take you've had with myself and other forum members who care enough to challenge you and not accept everything as gospel.

What I think Howie means by lets see the data is not a repeat of antidotal observations but actual measurements and comparisons. For instance kings kept individually grew from this weight to that in 18 months while communally kept kings grew from this weight to that in 18 months. As a measure of metabolic efficiency which group put on more mass relative to the weight of input (food). Reports on fecundity, number of eggs and percent of hatchlings per snake between the groups and yada yada yada.........

Its all well and good to say that bigger communal caging is better for the keeper and the kept, which I believe, however unless somehow quantified our perceptions on the subject are merely assumptions.
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Darwin Rocks!

Its my experience, if some basic husbandry techniques are met, then thats the only reason they will consume eachother. Or at least the main reason.

Of course accidents can happen with any snake, single or otherwise.

Such common sense things like, do not keep snakes together if they have know eachother. That brings up the question how do they get to know eachother, etc.

I would think those type of questions would be asked, and not argue forth and back about how you precieve my responces.

The truth is, People here interpid my responses in about as many ways as there are people here. So I ask, which one of you do I address??????? The one who does not know how to interpid answers. You know, as if everything is one way or the other(black or white). Or do I address those that would rather learn about snakes then argue over how its said??? I could address all the different ways people want me to respond. But then that would be silly.

So I simply state my experiences and opinions. Do you get that. Over forty years of keeping kings together makes it rather difinitive for ME. I really do not know about you. See what I mean. Cheers

Have a merry Christmas Frank
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Darwin Rocks!

Thanks Tony, And you and your family and snakes, have a very merry Christmas.

I do understand, this is only a forum on kingsnakes. So please do not take anything personal. Cheers

Thanks Frank

As for taking anything personal here, I have no reason too. At least of late I have not been called stupid, ignorant or possessed of a faulty mind!

Regardless of your or anyone else’s experience I will continue to question posts that I disagree with, think are lacking on content or are poorly stated. I'll also jump in with alternative views if I think this will advance discussion. That isn't personal either. If ideas can not be subjected to debate, they have no value and should not be put forward in the first place.

OK about putting kings together, I think you missed a couple of points in your most recent post and by missed I simply mean failed to mension so don’t take it personal.

#1 Young kings tend to be more opportunistic feeders than older king. When keeping kings together your margin for error is much less with young kings and accidents are more likely to happen in the first year.

#2 Size matters! Kings of equal size are less likely to screw with each other. If there is a significant mismatch in size it isn’t a question of if it’s a question of when the smaller one is going to experience a role reversal in the predator prey relationship.
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Darwin Rocks!

I think maybe Howie is looking for a hard copy or pdf of actual data logged? hmmm. I bet there'es not much of that. Just anectdotal and heresay..
Heck I never write anything down!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

is that some of us get the cement shoes when we try to have "fun" and express our opinions. Abraham Lincoln would be turning in his grave -- old records indicate that he also bred southern holbrooki . . . talk about a true pioneer!

But seriously, I have heard nothing about L. g. californiae consuming L. zonata ssp., and yes their ranges mostly are divided by elevation factors however that is not entirely true in all cases (i.e.: pulchra, in some ranges, overlap getula territory in some canyons, campgrounds, and lower-elevation boulder outcroppings...) and there seems to be some degree of compatibility. I have recollections growing up in Los Angeles county (San Fernando valley) whereby not too far from an area where I'd seen a couple of what I eventually learned were pulchra in Topanga Canyon I would also find getula. Again, not listed in any literature that I have read nor in any conversations I have had over the last umpteen years have I heard of zonata consumption via getula.

Not that I would try it in captivity anytime soon, however I do keep pairs of zonata together without any difficulty and have seen some co-habitation behavior. Maybe because of restricted space? But I offer multiple hidespaces and more-often-than-not I find them together. I anticipate further observation after attempting to build and utilize some stacks for them.
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Jerry Kruse

"Yesterday is history.....tomorrow is a mystery.........but today is a gift -- that is why it is called the present". - Master Oogway

Hey Jerry, do me a favor. Please do not do that experiment with "my" babies when they come. Thanks. Ha Ha Ha.

Hey Mr. Santa Cruz,
I also keep my multicincta together and have
had no problems as well. I've even kept
a pair of my adult L.g.g. together for extended
periods of time. Yet, I have kept a clutch of
my '08 L.g.g. and had a negative experience, i.e.,
minus one Eastern King. My plan was to keep a clutch
together until they had their first shed, but
two days before most of them started to shed,
one was consumed by another. I also have a very well
fed 4.5' female that has allowed a 4' male to mate
with her, but every time I have tried to introduce
my large 5' male, she tries to eat him. Basically
for me it comes down to every snake is unique and
needs to be treated as an individual.
Happy Hauckina Hauckina for sure !!!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Actually there are many places where getula and mountain kings overlap. With pyros and zonatas and mexicana. I am sure getula will consume them as well as many other snake species.

In fact, Gerold Merker posted a pic of a ringneck consuming a pyro in nature.

What is funny is, many here think that one will get rid of the other. But nothing could be farther from the truth. All snakes feed on something, and they must do so in a way that does not eliminate their food source. Or they will perish. That is the balance of nature. We already know that snakes have defined territories, therefore they must co-exsist with their prey.

More truth, if wild kings commonly ate wild kings, there would not be so many, or any at all. After all, who better to know where wild kings are then another wild king. What animal would be able to go to the same places, hmmmmmm another king?

The point is, people kill people, dogs kill dogs, mice kill mice, birds kill birds, etc etc etc, yet they all are social and live in groups. So killing or eating another is not for the reasons of being in pairs or groups. Its more about the one being killed is not in the group. Just another thing to think about. Cheers

"Its more about the one being killed is not in the group."

You keep putting this group thing forward like its a supported fact when it is not. IMHO whenever you see aggregations of wild snakes (at least in the mid-Atlantic) there is something going on other than actively foraging for food.
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Darwin Rocks!

are you of the opinion there are no groups of snakes in nature, and that they are nomads all their life only coming together to propagate? if so do you feel this way about all sp. or just kings?,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tom I just don't see any evidence that kings in my area exist socially but neither did I say the only reason they might be found in groups is for propagation.

Across all snake species, there most certainly exists a range of behaviors that MIGHT be interpreted as social but 1) such interpretations may only be incorrect reflections of our social bias and 2) they should not automatically be accepted as universally applicable. The best example of this I can think of for this is king cobras. While most other forms do no, they clearly build nests and guard their eggs but we have no idea of the roots of this behavior. To see them as exhibiting maternal behavior is probably a gross oversimplification. To say that all female snakes do the same because one form might is even worse.

Good question though. It got me thinking.

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Darwin Rocks!

The one exception to that I have observed numerous times in the wild is with coperheads. I have a place along a river where everytime I see them they are with each other. I rarely seen a coperhead at this location that is by itself. No matter what time of year either.

Sorry- "COPPERHEADS". Going too fast and no spell check!!

But Joe, we can't USE copperheads as an example bro because there is no cannibalistic tendencies between them.....but this IS certainly a juicy conversation......times like this is like watching a tennis match......

......be right back.........

......gotta get the popcorn from the micro.......
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Jerry Kruse

"Yesterday is history.....tomorrow is a mystery.........but today is a gift -- that is why it is called the present". - Master Oogway

I've noted the same with copperheads. Its not always true but enough to notice a pattern. But Jerry is correct they aren't kings.
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Darwin Rocks!

Very true Jerry. Thought it was worth mentioning. I have never seen kings together in the wild. Wish I would!! I did catch one eastern king under a rock that was WITH a copperhead. Both were coiled up and the king attemted to go down a hole. Tricky grab that I did not enjoy!! Also worth noting is that this location is FULL of snakes and I have only been there one time in thirty years where I did not catch something.

I routinely find snakes in groups. Its kind of like hunting for mushrooms, once you find the first one look harder close by and you will find more! And once you find a place that can support a number of snakes keep your mouth shut! There is so much evidence that snakes are communal. This is becoming more and more realized. They not only tolerate each other, but seek each other out.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

>>I routinely find snakes in groups. Its kind of like hunting for mushrooms, once you find the first one look harder close by and you will find more! And once you find a place that can support a number of snakes keep your mouth shut! There is so much evidence that snakes are communal. This is becoming more and more realized. They not only tolerate each other, but seek each other out.
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>>"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

When, What and Where?

Please everyone stop generalizing, what species seeks what species out? Heck a king cobra loves seeking other snakes out good for it bad for anything else.
At any time during the day and at anytime during a season do you find groups? Is this something that is always happening or only at specific times?
Social is such a broad/general term, and one that is hard to apply to snakes. It seems to me you only find snakes grouping together under certain circumstances, IE food, shelter, breeding age, or sex.

Tell me what species of snakes do we find grouping and under what conditions?
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

First of all you should know that you are only going to find snakes under certain conditions, because the rest of the time they are in a hole underground or some type of cover because its too hot or cold or whatever. SO...that said. Name a species found in CONUS and I will tell you if I've,
1. found it in nature
2. found it in groups
because just about every snake I have found in nature I have found in groups, so STOP generalizing your questions if you don't want general answers. I even find snakes together crossing roads!

Here is a pic of the type cages I keep snakes in groups (note this is a monitor cage, but just imagine slighter smaller for snakes)
and here are some pics from nature of a community of crotalus I have posted before.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Very nice Charlie. Wish I had a setup like that. I too have found many rattlesnakes together in Surprise Arizona at night and during the summer. Western Diamondbacks and Mohave rattlesnakes seemed to be within feet of each other every time I went looking. For those who want more: August/ 110 during the day and 90 or so at night. Clear skies. Just from memory as I was not writing a book-- just catching snakes.

How do you access the bottom to see how your animals are doing? Do you just throw food in and hope they get it? Are you able to monitor individual health/weight if you only sporadicly see them above ground? I see that that is how Frank has said maybe a cage should be, More bottom than top. Please elaborate if you don't mind. I bet a lot of folks here would be interested.
Thanks,
BobS

The very top comes off in panels. The actual top frame comes off with six bolts, but I don't access that unless I'm removing all the dirt.
Yup, I just throw in handfuls of mice and watch. It's the nature channel right at home! Most of the time all you have to do is mess with the top and they come up to you..."feed me". There is a network of burrows and such which I try not to mess with unless I'm looking for eggs. For the most part I just try to let them do what they do, and I watch. If something doesn't seem right I make adjustments. Sometimes I do the right thing and sometimes I do the wrong thing, but I learn from it.
With the snakes I don't use that deep of substrate, only about 1 foot instead of 2 1/2 like with the monitors. I'm always trying to get plants to grow, but I or the inhabitants usually kill them. I'm still working on that. I keep crickets in all the cages like that for general cleanup, and they sound nice.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

>>First of all you should know that you are only going to find snakes under certain conditions, because the rest of the time they are in a hole underground or some type of cover because its too hot or cold or whatever. SO...that said. Name a species found in CONUS and I will tell you if I've,
>>1. found it in nature
>>2. found it in groups
>>because just about every snake I have found in nature I have found in groups, so STOP generalizing your questions if you don't want general answers. I even find snakes together crossing roads!
>>
>>Here is a pic of the type cages I keep snakes in groups (note this is a monitor cage, but just imagine slighter smaller for snakes)
>>and here are some pics from nature of a community of crotalus I have posted before.
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>>"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Talk about being general, any snake in 48 states, hmm, how about an Apalachicola Kingsnake?

You seem to point out rattlesnakes and certain kings allot as "grouping" which I can understand, look at the environment they live in and what they need to survive it can make sense.. My point is NOT EVERY snake just because a few do group should be labeled as "groupers". And just because its found in nature doesn't mean its best for the snake. Do snakes you find group because they want to or because the environment invites them to?
And if they want to why do they? What about tropical species vs non tropics do you lump them in as groupers as well?
Rattlesnakes always group throughout the year or specific times in the year?

FROM YOUR POSTS you are focused in one part of the country and you are seeing many types of snakes "grouping" and ask does this happen elsewhere? While I am sure it could, that doesn't mean it does.

BTW thanks for sharing the pics!!
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

That's a good one. I don't have any pics of the snakes, but I lived in Ft. Walton Beach from 91-94' and I used to hunt snakes all the time on the Eglin Air Force base reservation (probably would get shot now!) I even knew a couple Army rangers out there, and they had this huge snake house to train the soldiers on how to identify the venomous snakes from the non-venomous. I even got a few snakes from them (ones I couldn't find at the time!). Anyway, I found a florida/eastern hybrid (what I thought at the time, was it an Apalachicola?) under the same boards as a scarlet king. This place was a great place to catch lizards and I think that both of those snakes had the same idea. Don't know if this counts for you, but that was my experience with that. I haven't been everywhere, but I grew up a military brat, and I like moving and have loved snakes since I was two feet tall. Every time I go somewhere new I look for snakes, and try to find something I haven't before.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

"I routinely find snakes in groups. Its kind of like hunting for mushrooms, once you find the first one look harder close by and you will find more! And once you find a place that can support a number of snakes keep your mouth shut! There is so much evidence that snakes are communal. This is becoming more and more realized. They not only tolerate each other, but seek each other out."

Just my opinion but this is a classic example of what I try to point out. You take a basic truth, some areas support snake populations others do not and make a huge leap that this indicates social groupings. Now I'm not saying you are wrong but what you've presented as fact is indeed pure conjecture. As howie pointed out, where is the data. I don't think oyu guys have any.
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Darwin Rocks!

I have attached a photo of a contig of mtDNA sequences WHICH include some of the rattlesnakes you saw in the previous photo. It also includes a number of individuals from other populations. One specific population is a "new" site as these snakes den up in a road that was build in the 70's. Look at base position 440. This contig has 81 snakes (I could not fit them all in the photo). At base 440 there is a "T" insertion that is specific to this population of about 30-40 adult snakes (based on mark recapture data) of which I have samples of 26 and all but one have this unique mutation. This is maternally inherited and suggests that this population was derived from ONE female. Five miles down the road in either direction I find a different haplotype. Additionally we have a collection of lab snakes that represent ~30 years of captures from this area and others. The findings are: if they have this genotype they are from this population. This is thirty years of data! THIS IS GENETIC DATA! Are you happy now?

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Sorry for the poor quality I had to resize to fit KS specs. The mutations are in red and are population specific.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

That's it? Give me a break.
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Darwin Rocks!

I've already mentioned to you generally some of my field observations, I have pics and genetic data to back it up. What do you got?
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

I have a mind that likes to explore ideas to see how strong they are. I also have a pretty kean BS detecter. What I've come up with on this one is that you guys have a intersting concept but are too in love with it to explore it honestly.
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Darwin Rocks!

I might as well stir the pot a little. The only thing this data shows is that snakes in a certain area share DNA. That doesn't necessarily mean they are social animals that enjoy a group dynamic. An alternate explanation is that they don't range very far from their place of birth.

finds them in groups, share DNA and do not travel very far, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder what that means??? cheers

Nice, your post was perfect. I didn't even mention the neonate congregations and parental care yet!
By the way Frank, when you get the time I posted a question on your site about my gouldi crosses that I could really use some help with.
Cheers,
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Thats right, you didn't mention anything about neonatal groups or parental care. All you did was post data that showed animals in a certain area share DNA. If that data is taken by itself the only inference that can be drawn is that the animals in a certain area interbreed & share traits.

I don't have any idea if ya'll are 100% correct about the group dynamic & really don't care one way or the other. I was merely pointing out that the data presented, taken by itself, neither proves nor disproves your conclusions.

This is not a scientific paper or published or any such thing.

what that means is, what we talk about here is WHAT WE SEE. Its not about conclusions or any such thing. Its only the reader that somehow wants to make things with a definite ending.

Its not a mystery to many field herpers that snakes live in very defined groups and these groups may mostly consist of a genetic family. As in very closely related. To a point of clutchmates.

We also understand there are several or many different social dynamics within any species. There is even a anti-social element in every population. That is, some individuals are NOT included. This includes both sexes.

We also know that these groups very with supporting conditions. Under good conditions, there can be many times the members then under poor conditions.

We also understand, that these populations age. That is, there are young thriving groups and old barely surviving groups. And everything inbetween. And all this is without one larger population.

We also understand that different species have many different approaches to this.

As Dobry mentioned, we are seeing the adults influencing the young. Its hard to say, maternal care. But without question, the adults are teaching the young where to go and when. We just do not know how.

Because we do not speak Snake and they do not talk to us. The how this is done is very hard to see or prove. Its most likely occurring with pheromones, much like many other types of animals. (scent cued)

We all know that these types of reptiles have a super keen sense of smell, but we only understand a few small uses for this keen sense of smell.

We do know they have many different organs that emit pheromones, and these are all over their bodies. We just do not know what they actually do.

We do know that certain species must find certain types of areas to survive, different areas within their range. Like the areas Dobry is working. Yet we do not know how the young actually get there. Sometimes they are born there, then its easy to understand why they return. Other times they are not and still return to these areas their parents use.

Whats really hard to include is, the areas that Dobry is working only includes a certain percentage of the snakes in that area. My guess is about 20%. But whats interesting is, These small areas are highly successful. Other areas seem to fail under extremes.

So yes, there is a lot we do not know, and very little we do know. But lucky for folks like Dobry and I, we do know a little. Cheers

Classic example of interpretations incorrectly reflecting a social bias.
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Darwin Rocks!

To sit around and pick things apart that you do not actually work with or understand.

Whats good about Dobry is, he is actually DOING THE WORK, as I am. So we do see a lot in common. Which is very different from what you will see or read. After all, your not doing any of this are you???????

So yes, I could sit and pick apart your posts paragraph by paragraph, but what good is that.

You see, you would be far better off, asking GOOD questions, then throwing doubt and confusion all around like you do.

Whats funny is, we are doing the work and you folks look into sweater boxes and doubt what we say, hahahahahahahahahahahaha now thats pretty funny don't you think?

Tony, read my post above this one. Thanks

I expected you to you to eventually turn back to making this about me just being disagreeable but like I've said before, I'm not saying you are wrong just that the information you present doesn't support your claims. You keep coming on here making these claims again and again and expressing great personal conviction but that does not alter the FACT that you either do not have data to support your claims OR you've failed to present it in a clear concise manner.
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Darwin Rocks!

The reason it always goes back to you Tony is, you are only stating your personal opinion, without any data, any field work, just stating what you think. I can only imagine its from what you read or something.

About proof, Thousands of captive snakes of many many species were produce here these are indeed proof. Heck albino cal kings are proof, as I was the one who produce the first several hundred. They were kept in groups.

I have some groups now, they too are proof. You see, the proof was here before you came along and is still here.

That you refuse to look is only about you.

What you do is really yours to do, I do not want you to do anything else. But if others want to hear my SUCCESSFUL experience, then by golly, you should let them. Cheers

Relative experience is not everything Frank.
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Darwin Rocks!

Relative experience is not everything Frank.

geez abit anticlimactic if ya ask me(big read) but really, what can you say? you have your books and FR has hands on.
case closed,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It's anti climactic because he keeps hanging his hat on the same old, “I did it all first” thing. Instead of presenting evidence, or just rationally discussing the subject, he makes this about his level of experience against anyone who questions him. I could have said more but it’s been said before so what’s the point?
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Darwin Rocks!

Dang Tony, you have a problem don't you, all you care about is the first thing.

Well lets look at that. First breedings of many snakes, or very close to first, some species were bred but were called a different species. Like Ruthens kings, I have the first breedings, except L.A. zoo bred them before me, but called them arcifera. Of course, Dallas Zoo bred L.t.arcifera, and they were arcifera. L.A. zoos were actually ruthens kings.

Back to the point. Not only did I breed lots of firsts, but I also established them. That means I bred the beans out of them. But you hate that hey????

When I bred them, I did keep them in groups/pairs, and still do. Sir, that IS PROOF. Its a legacy of proof.

In nature, I do find them in groups, but I choose to keep the hows and wheres private. As all that benefits from that knowledge is people and the animals are the ones who suffer. Those that know me. Know I am telling the truth and that is important to me. What you think, really does not matter. Cheers

"When I bred them, I did keep them in groups/pairs, and still do. Sir, that IS PROOF. Its a legacy of proof."

I have a male large size and female about 4 inches smaller than him. I can tell they smell each other .They are in same room but 2 different tanks.

I have allways wanted to breed them but was afraid to leave together over night .

Did you raise your ruthvens as babies together or introduce as adults?
Did you feed in seperate enclosures?

Thanks

Now I see where your coming from. You do not think experience is meaningful.

I do. I really do. If you do not have experience, then its academic. Cheers

>>"Its more about the one being killed is not in the group."
>>
>>You keep putting this group thing forward like its a supported fact when it is not. IMHO whenever you see aggregations of wild snakes (at least in the mid-Atlantic) there is something going on other than actively foraging for food.
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>>Darwin Rocks!

Lot's of Kingsnake species live in groups. It is a fact Tony.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I have not said they don't Joe, just that I don't see evidence that they experience a social dynamic as Frank describes. Don't forget that this is about why kings do and don't eat each other.

Here in the mid-Atlantic you find places, spots if you will, where kings are quite common when other places yield few or none. That they exist in this kind of grouping and that they may share some common ancestry is obvious. When there is a measure geographic isolation you might even see some phenotypic variation distinct to the group. I would imagine that in western more arid areas this trend is even more obvious but I think it's a leap to go from recognizing population groupings to the social dynamic Frank imagines. As I've said before Frank may be correct but nobody has presented any data to support anything beyond the obvious. There has been no coherent presentation of the idea that makes me think it has any worth other than you can artificially keep these animals together in captivity. There is a very obvious way to test this notion and if I had been entertaining it for 40 years you can bet I'd have some numbers to demonstrate the notion's merit. If I discovered that there was some merit to the notion my next question would be what evolutionary advantage is there to such a dynamic.

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Darwin Rocks!

>>I have not said they don't Joe, just that I don't see evidence that they experience a social dynamic as Frank describes. Don't forget that this is about why kings do and don't eat each other.
>>
>>Here in the mid-Atlantic you find places, spots if you will, where kings are quite common when other places yield few or none. That they exist in this kind of grouping and that they may share some common ancestry is obvious. When there is a measure geographic isolation you might even see some phenotypic variation distinct to the group. I would imagine that in western more arid areas this trend is even more obvious but I think it's a leap to go from recognizing population groupings to the social dynamic Frank imagines. As I've said before Frank may be correct but nobody has presented any data to support anything beyond the obvious. There has been no coherent presentation of the idea that makes me think it has any worth other than you can artificially keep these animals together in captivity. There is a very obvious way to test this notion and if I had been entertaining it for 40 years you can bet I'd have some numbers to demonstrate the notion's merit. If I discovered that there was some merit to the notion my next question would be what evolutionary advantage is there to such a dynamic.
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>>Darwin Rocks!

What social dynamic was inferred? Do they play Bridge and drink Tea? What about combat and courtship? Are these not social behaviors? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"What social dynamic was inferred?"

This goes back many threads but the inference is familial recognition and cannibalization mostly if not exclusively existing outside of or between family groups.

"Do they play Bridge and drink Tea?"

No.

"What about combat and courtship? Are these not social behaviors?"

Note I never said there was a complete lack of social behavior so I can answer yes. Are you saying however that this supports the inference? If so how?

"You're just arguing for the sake of arguing."

Perhaps but Frank, to his credit, has moderated lately and started being a bit more careful in how he qualifies his statements. If I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, that's not too bad an outcome.

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Darwin Rocks!

>>"What social dynamic was inferred?"
>>
>>This goes back many threads but the inference is familial recognition and cannibalization mostly if not exclusively existing outside of or between family groups.

I got it right away that you did not buy this, but Frank did NOT infer absolutes. It is clear that Frank has access to some excellent cutting edge research papers, but what is really funny is that Frank has been preaching this for well over 30 years!

>>Note I never said there was a complete lack of social behavior so I can answer yes.

Well then what part is it you find so objectionable? That a snake can recognize a clan member through smell / pheromones? or is it that a kingsnake might be more apt to cannibalize a member of another clan / family before a member of it's own clan / family?

The cannibalism issue is much more complex, but Frank did point out one of the major factors to this behavior. I'm with Frank on this.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"Well then what part is it you find so objectionable? That a snake can recognize a clan member through smell / pheromones? or is it that a kingsnake might be more apt to cannibalize a member of another clan / family before a member of it's own clan / family?"

Both but not so much that either cannot be the case as much as its just supposition because we have no proof. I can agree that it's an interesting idea and that it may be a factor but as a fact, no. The truth is we just don't know. Two lines of "evidence" have been forwarded:

1) Field observations that snake populations exist in pockets and that these pockets may share common ancestry which is nothing new and..

2) That you can keep kings in groups in captivity. In my view this is irrelevant unless one thinks there is a correlation between captive snakes habitualized to gingerly pick through a plate of frozen thawed mice and how real wild snakes behave and interact."

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Darwin Rocks!

Hey Tony,
Did you know that if you sail to the end of the ocean you will fall off? LOL...see I can laugh like you guys too! Why don't you try something yourself and generate your own data! I bet I can pick it apart too. Do you really think we are just making stuff up? Actually if you go back, I never made a single conclusion. All I did was state some data/observations...and you/others took off with it to say it doesn't imply this and that. Why? I would have been very interested to actually discuss THE DATA and what it may or may not mean, but you are obviously not interested in that.

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Dude that is one seriously neat looking little king!

"see I can laugh like you guys too!"

Nobody is laughing at you guys. I think the ideas you present are interesting I just don't see any evidence to raise them above that level. In truth I would love it if you did.

"Actually if you go back, I never made a single conclusion. All I did was state some data/observations...and you/others took off with it to say it doesn't imply this and that."

That is pretty much how the process of inquiry begins!

"I would have been very interested to actually discuss THE DATA and what it may or may not mean, but you are obviously not interested in that."

Others did and you didn't follow through. For my part I thought it was pretty obvious what the data indicated. I'm sorry but the presented antidotal observations aren't convincing. By the same token the idea IS interesting enough to merit looking into. What you guys have now is a working hypothesis. If you want data to prove / disprove it you need to devise an experiment that will generate data that does so. It should be easy to design.
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Darwin Rocks!

Thank you about the king. About the data the only response was regarding the relatedness of different populations alone not saying anything other than, "they don't travel very far". While this my be true, that was not the only data. If someone is not reading the entire thread to see what all was stated, than I didn't feel like I should need to restate myself. Frank had responded summing up the fact that they are found in groups, they are related and they don't travel far...What does that mean? Which is a very good question! What does that mean? Well I guess it could mean a lot of things, so you wanted to bring in the evolutionary context which is a great thing. Well either these populations are in trouble and are isolated for other reasons(detrimental), OR there is some advantage to this life history trait.....Well honestly I don't know! But I am still gathering data. I am tired of reading papers that were done by some grad student over a two to four year period and a whole galaxy of conclusions that were taken from that. What is two years compared to millions? Was that two good years or two years of drought? Are there the same or different survivorship tactics employed under these type conditions? My guess is they are different as desperate animals resort to desperate means.

The next question is a very important one. How do you know if a snake is desperate? In my experience sick or dieing snakes/wild animals (in general) do not let you know until they are dead or just about dead. So their must be a way to measure that, well??? Could eating each other be an indication? Why can some people keep snakes in groups successfully and others not? How about this question....How do you know how hungry snakes are? Snakes can indeed go for long periods without food and survive that way, BUT if given the opportunity how often will they eat when food is abundant? I have snakes that will eat every single day! You know what else...they will eat with the same aggressiveness as one that hasn't eaten in a month. Ponder that for a minute...Here's another pic of that little female

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

"If someone is not reading the entire thread to see what all was stated, than I didn't feel like I should need to restate myself."

Dito!

Lots to talk about there but its getting late and Christmas is upon me! LOL Hope we can pick this up later because I think a conversation is starting. I will say this one parting thing about how some can keep kings together and some can't. This is just my opinion but many who can't have understimulated animals. That is, the only time the snake gets to react to anything is when the cage is opened and its is fed. The eat anything that moves responce is just basic conditioning. Its kind of sad really.
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Darwin Rocks!

Yup, I hear ya, gotta plane to catch...Merry Christmas!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

"Thank you about the king. About the data the only response was regarding the relatedness of different populations alone not saying anything other than, "they don't travel very far". While this my be true, that was not the only data. If someone is not reading the entire thread to see what all was stated, than I didn't feel like I should need to restate myself."

I did read the entire thread. The post I responded to was the only one that had data, everything else was anecdotal evidence based on personal experience. This thread started by someone asking for hard data & the vast majority of the posts have been theory and/or conjecture.

Again, I am not questioning if you are right or wrong. I'm merely stating the rather obvious fact that hard data was asked for, & the only hard data that has been provided didn't prove or disprove your theory. I apologize if I missed a post that had other hard data in it.

>>I did read the entire thread. The post I responded to was the only one that had data, everything else was anecdotal evidence based on personal experience. This thread started by someone asking for hard data & the vast majority of the posts have been theory and/or conjecture.

Frank has continually supplied primary data from his own Independent observations.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

well it has been demonstrated in Fish that several species have the ability to identify kin from nonkin in the nest and cannibalize the unrelated offspring, confirmed through DNA testing. There is good reason to believe snakes may have this chemical capability as well as other animals. Ants are an extreme example of what chemical communication is capable of.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I think one could do a neat little controlled study on this. I've been pondering that for the better part of a week. At first the design eluded me but its starting to take form now.
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Darwin Rocks!

Lets see. Just for the "fun" of it I put my two baby easterns in the same enclosure (calling it a cage would not sound right) last night to see what would happen. Well, they both went crazy trying to avoid each other. I mean crazy!! After ten minutes of snake exercise I put them back into single enclosures. Ten minutes of research.

That's fair.

I raised up two Cal kings together, kept them for years in the same cage, and was facinated by how they reacted to one another. So there is a little data too.

What was also interesting was the communal wintering box - a big plywood box that I put the Cal kings in during the winter, heated a bit on one side, but getting very cool elsewhere. The big adult Cal king pair always laid by or on each other during that time. Every year. Kind of cool to see that repeat each year. It was as if they chose one another out of the other snakes in the box. A bit more data.

And don't get me started with Sinaloans. Those things are communal as all heck.
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Mark

That is what we are here for right! Love to hear different opinions and research information. Pretty cool about the california kings!

mine made babies!

,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm just happy to be here. To everyone, and that includes you too Frank, Happy Holidays!!!! Just wanted to close the year on the forum on a good note, if that is at all possible. Of course I am well aware that there are still 13 days to go that can sour that good note, but what the hey.

merry christmas howie,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

LOL!!!!
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Nature int always a nice place and sometimes there is no need to replicate it, but for those that try please share your photos of where you house your snakes.

I have learned many things from nature and observing snakes, one of the more important for me is when I was a young boy hunting and killed a sparrow with a BB gun. Not 10 minutes went by when I saw that very sparrow being consumed by a black rat snake, it was then I asked my self is lead good for a snake? Later I tried feeding my black rat snakes pre-killed food and wouldn't you know it black rats don't always kill what they eat. This was NOT something I read in a book, it was something nature, that black rat snake told me. I often found black rats adults together only underthings, never actively hunting/moving.
I found a pair together breeding and kept them together for years without problems, however they are one species of snake why all this lumping of kings, why must all kings be the same? I am sure some gather in groups and others don't or only when they are forced to.

Keeping snakes would surely be cheaper for me if space was my only concern, but are we talking 10 snakes in groups of same species of the same weight of the same clutch, can we get some data please?
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

What data were you looking for?

I keep all of my adults (adults =1yr old ) together year round. I think most of the fear of keeping kings together has to do that people think they will eat each other. That is why you asked the question, right?

I have a large collection and been doing this for many years. Not once has one eaten another. The only thing I do is be careful during their introduction. Which is now during brumation period. But even then in the summers I may leave a male in with a different female. I just place the frozen mice in their cage and they politly share. I have too many snakes to keep an eye on them during feeding. I have never had them even kill one another over a food item.

Hey Rainer,
I see you are one of the wonderful spellers on the Phorum.(lol)
As for trying to answer my question, if you read my post there was NO question asked, although, as Tony quite clearly saw, I have yet to see , other than anecdotally, any hard empirical evidence to support anyone's statements (either way I might add), that you can house kings together. So my post was a statement, not a question, and it appears to be one of fact. I also posted it to have a little fun, as this argument has gone back and forth , and will continue to do so in perpetuity.
I have seen Kings consume each other both in the wild(Eastern Milks in Upstate NY twice, and Eastern Kings in Okeetee once(There was a regurged copperhead nearby and I have a feeling that was the object of the battle and ultimate mealtime between the Kings)and in captivity.
I have also seen more than one attempt at captive Kings trying to make a meal of one another in various collections in various geographic locations in various conditions.And that allows of course for poor husbandry, not asking the snake what it wants, being silly and snide, and of course the old standby of the keeper being narsissississsssisssissitic. One point I would make is that it CAN happen, and if it can happen I will remain safe and house the kings separately, no matter the arguments to the contrary.
Of course if you argue that as a matter of keeping things clean and free of sepsis, it is wise to house animals separately as opposed to communally. Who stands ready to argue that point?

I'm glad someone besides me has seen kings eating kings.

Yeah this subject has been delt with before. But as one person mentioned *cough* even people eat people when they are at wits end.

If you house people separately with no contact, they can't kill each other either.

Let the snakes live, react, behave as they would. Keeping them singly all the time makes us the ultimate control freaks. The snakes have only the water bowl to react to. Is that really a testament to captive husbandry? Any knucklehead can do that. Even I can do that.

But keeping these animals in a group where they do great, now that is an accomplishment. It requires to be more in-tune with the animals being kept. And more knowledge is gained.
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Mark

Good thoughts Howie!!

Kingsnakes are called KINGSNAKES for a reason. Why is that? Because simply, as what nature dictates, they overcome, devour, and consume other snakes, and of course, more so than others. It is their instinct and it is what they do and they do it rather well, to say the least.

There is this new found love of an idea that goes like this. “ If I am able to, and if it is possible, it any way, shape, or form, then it must be ok!! “ The love of possibility without consideration of all outcomes. I am sure not everyone who has kept kings together has had that mindset, but I am willing to bet some have. Yes, some say they have been able to do it, and if that is true/and or correct, then it is what it is, and they were able to do that. Thing is, even with that being said, so what?? That does not change the fact that they are kingsnakes, and that they still have the possibility to eat other snakes at any given time. It is what they do naturally, according to their instinct, which will never change.

Also, think of it like this:

Termites eat wood.
Piranhas eat living animals.
Horses eat grass.
Me and Howie eat wings.
And so forth…

It is just that simple.

Why play with fire? Why take that chance? What is to be proven? To me, it is not the wisest thing to do, as it lacks any sufficient evidence that can single handedly argue with kingsnake’s natural instincts, nor do I feel it is respectable to the animals as a whole who are forced to be cagemates to begin with, since that danger of being eaten by either one without warning at any given time is always open, IMO. This is in no way a slam on anyone that does this, but just an opinion backed up by nature. The fact that kings being cagemates CAN and HAS resulted in one snake eating the other, like they do in nature, overshadows the result from pure luck that others may have experienced when their kings didn't eat each other, and continues to remain as the fact that can never be proven wrong. It can happen. Act as you wish!!!

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Genesis 1:1

"One point I would make is that it CAN happen, and if it can happen I will remain safe and house the kings separately, no matter the arguments to the contrary. "

HOLY MOLY.... this is funny.
Are you afraid to get in a car? because you CAN get in an accident
Do you ever eat out? because you CAN get E. coli, or salmonella or hepatitis or some other food born illness.
I could go on for days with this!

Do you even go outside? because something might happen you know.

"and if it can happen I will remain safe"
HOLY MOLY....hahahahhahaha If I thought like this I would never leave my bed. I would have certainly not lived the life I have!
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Glad I can amuse you buddy. I hate to tell ya, but I was talking about the Kings and not about myself. To rationalize the two, funny as your post was, is not the most logical. I would try to put it more like this: Putting the Kings together is like playing russian roulette. you are fine, you are fine, you are fine, you are fine, you are fine , you are fine, you are dead.I therefore continue to stand by my contention. Happy New Years!

I know what you meant...I just couldn't resist. I figure everyone else is chalking it up, so I would play a little too. Your post was the easiest!
Cheers,

Merry Christmas and a happy new year!

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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Merry XMas to you too, and nice pic!!!

as an example.

Kings live in nature, they are not protected by saintly humans. They do live in groups and exsist just fine. They have since long before man was man. So what gives you the idea your protection is needed?

Yes, there MUST be lots you do not understand about snakes, like how they become groups and was causes these groups to occur. Or better yet, why are these animals in groups to start with. Or more basic, how do you find these groups. Maybe you would be better asking about his?

In our cases, Dobry and I, study rattlesnakes. We do so because they are EASY. They do some of their behavior above ground and they often tell us when we walk by one(happens alot). Kings on the otherhand, mostly live underground and there groups are mainly there. And they rarely tell us when we miss seeing one. To study this, we must find a window into their world.

Of course if your lucky you can fine AC that will reveal a group or some rock crevice or even by flipping a rock. The problem with those are when they are flipped, the snakes stop using them and your cannot continue to take data. So rattlesnakes are EASY and bold.

On the otherhand garders and waters are often in groups, they too are thick skinned and often in open air. But even they spend much of their life hidden.

There are so many examples like this, but rarely do you see kings in groups in nature, heck, rarely do you see kings OUT in nature. Except early spring in the central and eastern states. And this is the point, they are in nature, and they are common and they do occur in groups. Heck, many of your eastern folks know of spring runs of speckled kings. Heck you can find hundreds in a small field. Sometimes many under one piece of wood or tin. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Where do they go the rest of the year?

In captivity, I have not had problems keeping them in pairs and groups for over forty years, and Bluerosy does not either. Yet you and others Do, or think you do. Or worse yet, only fear you do.

In most cases, fear is born from ignorance. You must not understand these snakes so you fear what you do not know. And please do not get all crazy over this. This is common and plentiful in life. FEAR of what you do not understand is commonplace.

So someone comes along and does commonly what you fear. So you fight this or do you question this. Again it does not matter what subject it is. Only in this case, that someone did this long before you had snakes and maybe before you were born. In this case, its old information, not new. Which really blows my mind.

So you have two oldtimers that commonly do what you fear. How does that make you feel?? I know it makes you feel not so smart, thats why you fight it so. So another question pops up. Why not get smarter. How is that done????? Thats done by learning. Learning is done by asking questions(better and better questions) they testing and testing and testing.

So in my case, I have tested these things for decades. But somehow you cannot see that. I am in kingsnake books as the founder of many morphs. Yet you think that happened by accident. Hmmmmmmmmm I say.

Heres the point, you folks are making up rules based on your lack of understanding and unwarranted fears. Again, a common occurance. The best way to avoid that is to educate yourself.

So I say, GET WITH IT. We have shown you it can be done safely. So your task is to learn how. Or not! But stop with the Protectist additude. Like these animals need you. hahahahahahahahahaha, they surely do far better without us. I mean really, wheres the tiny boxes in nature. And who the heck is keeping them safe from eachother? Sir, you need to answer some of these questions. Oh and about dirty cages, hmmmmmmmm whos keeping them clean in nature? who is dissinfecting them there? In otherwords, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING???????

Only a few thoughts from an old guy. Cheers

A lot of good points to ponder Frank.

As you have mentioned in the past we have all accidentally hurt or killed snakes and hopefully learned from our mistakes. I guess some of the fear in our league here, is that we spend SO much time raising up a beautiful animal it is hard to think about losing it. Heck, when I see a DOR, I'm thinking of course what a shame, but also, Wow how long must that poor animal have lived and hunted ect. till this knucklehead mowed it down. Like letting your kid get on the school bus for the first time (ok, not so much but....)
About the disinfecting thing. I noticed in some of your rattlesnake pics in crevices that there was poop near the opening, but as just a hobbyist, I guess I have figured (maybe wrongly?) that wind, rain, air movement, UV, traffic, good guy and bad guy bacteria, the ability to move in and around it(poop) don't compare to a static box no matter how elaborate it is?
BobS

And insects. Forgot insects. That might feed on the excrement which might effect the healthiness of occupying the crevice?

How the heck are ya Howie? ya know if you keep enough snakes together at various times and under various captive conditions you will most likely have one feeding on another....
Obviously kingsnakes/milksnakes are not the only snakes to do this. I've had cornsnakes eat each other as hatchlings...(I'm sure I did something wrong) and have seen wild gartersnakes consume yellow ratsnakes in a cage full of various snakes. Under poor conditions and desperate? ones, the game changes,huh?

I think the "family" or "group" idea that has been mentioned here before makes a lot of sense in the wild...that is, they recognize "family" members or whatever and are less likely to feed on them as opposed to a snake from another tribe.
That would be fun to be able to study in the field.
In our captive situations, I will stick to keeping mine seperate for the most part but do keep some pairs tigether for extended lengths of time at various times during the year.
Many of my breeders were given to me because they ate their mate (under previous ownership) and those that have a known history of cannibalism are watched much more closely when paired up. I get nervous each and every time I put them in with others.
No matter, you have to watch and be aware of your charges enough to "read" them. I have a Cal king that will eat anything with or without a pulse but I can "read" her well enough to tell just when I can pair her up. It seldom has anything to do with her hunger. When put in a male's cage she's much less apt to go ballistic since she's out of her element so to speak.
Though genearlizations can be made, I treat my snakes as individuals with individual habits and "quirks".
Have fun!
Happy Chakah Khan
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

hey Howie, welcome back!
kind of funny of me welcoming you back, I think I have been absent (Voluntarily) more than you have, lol.

All the time I kept kings I recorded data on just this sort of thing. You'll be amazed at the results....

x(plus)y=1
y-1=0
x=0

10101010111101010101010111010101000000101010101010101010101010101

01010101010101010000010101111010101010010110101010101010101010101

01010101010101010101010101010101010010100000000001010000000000001

01010101011111111111111111111010101010101010101010101010101010101

01010101010101011111111111111111111111111111000000000000000000001

01010101010101010000000000011111111111111111010101010111100001010

10101010101000101010101010101010101010101011111100000001010101010

10101010101010101010000000000000000000000000000000000111111111111

11111111111101010101010101010101010101010101011111000000001010101

01010101010101010101011111101010101010101010101010101001010101010

10101010101010101010101010101010111111111111111110000000000000011

01010101010101010101010111111010101010101010101010101010101010101

01010101010101011110000000000000000000000000000011010101010101010

11111101010101000010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101

01010101011111010000000000000000000000000000000000110101010101010

10101010101010101010101010101010100101010101010101010101010101010

10101010101010101010100000000000000000000000000000001111111111111

11101010101010101010101111010101010101010101000001010101010101010

10101010101011101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101

01010101010101010101010101010101010101111111101010000101010101010

10001010111010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101

01010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010100101

01010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010

10111111111111111100000000000000000000000010111111111000000000111

11101010101010101010101010101000101011110101010101010101010101010

1

It only about 5 years of trials but there should be enough info to discern a trend and make an accurate prediction.
plug this data into an excel spreadsheet or serpwidget (found free on the web) and you will see exactly what I am talking about. I hope this helps, or at least gives you an idea of how chaotic things are here.

Merry Christmas, my friend.

daveb

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

Good to hear. What kind of kings to you keep? I am not saying that I would never house mine together, I just do not feel safe doing now.

"I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would do any good"
WAR GAMES.

Does the keeping of kingsnakes together only work with the same subspecies? I'm still a little reluctant to give it a try. Does anyone have a photo of a kingsnake eating another kingsnake?
I only have the one case of a hatchling eastern making a meal out of a sibling but don't have any photos. Buddy.

In 2005, me and Lindsay Pike caught a king in the canefields that was gorged from a recent meal. When we pulled it out of the snake bag that night, there was another king of similar size in there, dead. The dead king was a female. So the snake we caught regurged another kingsnake. Kingsnakes eat each other in the wild.

Its known that kingsnakes consume other kingsnakes. its also known that they do not consume other kingsnakes as well. This brings up many questions. Which ones are consumed and which ones are not.

Lets look at another behaviors we all know occur. Ritualized combat. Kingsnakes do practice this behavior. Again WHY? Ritualized combat is a type of combat where the opponets do not harm eachother. Hmmmmmmmmmm Why not just eat the other one. Or use regular combat and kill the other one?

As a field herper, I have seen ritualized combat several times. I have also seen males coiled together many many times with no aggression what so ever, Of any kind. Why?

So in captivity, we know we can keep pairs or groups without problem(bluerosey and I) and with others, they FEAR they will eat eachother.

I think the key here is FEAR. In this case, its fear of the unknown. Not the snakes fear, but the keepers fear. Which has nothing to do with the snakes.

Your bag experience was great, only you only made a casual observation. One ate the other, end of story. The problem is, that is only the begining of the story. Why did it consume that one. Was it starving(they can starve in nature) Was the other from a different population? unrelated? etc.

We do know that snakes practice, attraction, that is gathering with some individuals, and they practice the oppose, chasing off or killing other individuals. This is much like any social species.

You see, observation is more then meets the eye. The point is to ask better questions, Cheers

Just to throw it out there, but without having witnessed it eating, it's also possible it scavenged an already dead king.

Fascinating discussion though.

>>Just to throw it out there, but without having witnessed it eating, it's also possible it scavenged an already dead king.
>>
>>Fascinating discussion though.

Exactly what I was thinking, there is no context as to what happened and why, only an end result.

I have flipped many kings of different size, sex and with different species under the same boards which were not eating each other. Why not?

Some folks get stuck on some very simple concepts. Let it go I say, or take another extended vacation and think about it.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks