Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm wondering everyone's thoughts on the collection of Syspila and Gentilis in the wild. I'm from Douglas county Kansas where we have wonderful Syspila and I often see locale animals caught for private collections and profit on this forum. I don't agree with the practice and frankly it makes me angry to see animals from my backyard collected for private interest. Platt et all suggested in 1974 the prohibition of capture, transport, and sale of these animals in Kansas, due to the high demand for them in the commercial pet trade. Thoughts?

I am against the large-scale commercial collecting of any animal, anywhere. However, I am not against capture for captive breeding, as long as the proper permits are obtained. For instance, say I collect a pair of syspila from your area. If I take them home, establish their eating and housing routines and eventually breed them, I think it is fair game to sell their locality offspring for profit.

Here in AZ it is illegal to sell, trade, or barter ANY native animal or animal from AZ lineage. It burns me up to see people come here every year to collect our animals (Rosy Boas, Cal Kings, Pyros, Green Ratsnakes, etc...) and sell them in other states! If AZ would establish a captive breeding program and sell a permit that would allow us to sell AZ animals' progeny, I think it would greatly reduce the amount of collecting that goes on.

Sorry for the rambling...just my $0.02
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Diego

SWCHR

I agree 100% with Diego.

-Cole

The collection/no-collection debate has raged over and over again. There seems to be no "right" answer, though most of us agree that commercial collection is wrong, but personal collection is OK.

I collect a few animals from time to time, and I'm not ashamed of it or afraid to admit it. I DON'T collect everything I find - nor do I sell ANYTHING I collect. If I collect something for my breeding colonies, it's kept by me and me alone. If a given animal reproduces under my care, its offspring may (or may not) be offered for sale or given away. I never make more than I spend on care of the animals in a year. Never. Hence, "profit" is taken out of the equation.

If you've ever been in the right habitat under the right conditions, you've seen how abundant Lampropeltis are - they're just secretive animals. Collection, on the small scale, is not destructive to a given population of animals as long as their habitat is destroyed. It's essentially the same as predation. Notice I said "on the small scale" - a commercial collector COULD have an impact on a given hillside if he/she hit it repeatedly and collected everything they uncovered. Habitat damage is the number one enemy we (and the animals) face. Bulldozing a rocky hillside for a subdivision is far more damaging than even a commercial collection on the same hillside...

Anyway, that's my perspective! Hopes it's what you're looking for.

-Cole

Very well put in my opinion. I too go "herping", but until lately did not keep any snakes for more than a week to observe and admire them. Now that I am trying to breed a few, I have kept a couple to IMPROVE my collection. Two of these from my back yard. ( the only two w/c I have right now ) A sad example of over collection is the eastern box turtle. I used to see tons of them in the wild and now rarely ever see them due in large part (I think anyway) to the fact they sell for over 100 bucks on the net!! What a shame. By the way-- I believe it is illegal to sell any w/c snake in Maryland. And it should be.

I see far more DOR Eastern Box Turtles than alive.
In the last three years I've seen over 40 DORs,
seven in one drive, from work to home, about 12 miles.
Yet I've only seen about 15 AOR. One rainy morning,
I was almost hit head on by some dum @ss crossing
lanes to hit one.
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Not a milk snake but since you mentioned them.By the way he was left in the wild. Buddy.

Have you thought about starting the push for an ordinance? Douglas Co. is just the kind of place that might be very receptive to something to preserve the wildlife. It's only one county but it has to start somewhere and that's a good place to start. It wouldn't be the first time that Douglas County has led the way.

Rock Chalk

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Ginger Sanders
Staff Director
Email PHGinger

Ginger,
What is wrong w/ the permit system and bag limit that is in place right now?

-Dell

I have considered this many times. Here in Fl development is the major culprit. Remember every snake you own is from a wild caught animal somewhere down the line. I think preserving natural areas for all plants and wildlife is the way to go.
I used to stop by a local patch of woods on my way home from work.
Ocassionally I would find some nice snakes and turtles. After looking at them for awhile I would release them.One day I was going to stop for a walk, the whole 20 acre site was buldozed down to the dirt. Now we have a publix right across the street from our winn-Dixie. It makes me think collecting the animal would have been better than leaving them to be killed.
One up side to the failing economy is that the development has slowed.
I think the collecting for personal use should be allowed on private lands with permission of the landowner, but public lands should be maintained for viewing only. Buddy.

Little off topic but Buddy, do you have anymore photos of that snake. Beautiful.

She was my breeder foe about 8 years,got egg bound one summer and died a couple years ago. Here's some of her hatchlings.

Posted by: buddygrout at Sun Dec 21 14:50:45 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I have considered this many times. Here in Fl development is the major culprit. Remember every snake you own is from a wild caught animal somewhere down the line. I think preserving natural areas for all plants and wildlife is the way to go.
I used to stop by a local patch of woods on my way home from work.
Ocassionally I would find some nice snakes and turtles. After looking at them for awhile I would release them.One day I was going to stop for a walk, the whole 20 acre site was buldozed down to the dirt. Now we have a publix right across the street from our winn-Dixie. It makes me think collecting the animal would have been better than leaving them to be killed.
One up side to the failing economy is that the development has slowed.
I think the collecting for personal use should be allowed on private lands with permission of the landowner, but public lands should be maintained for viewing only. Buddy.
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I agree I live in Florida also. While back I was seeing one snake after another in my yard and driveway.
It was a treat though I prefer not seeing them but knowing they are safe in wild lands.

The reason was because 3 blocks away a good chunk of wild land was purchased for another golf course.

I read in another forum words of wisdom " Dont worry about non natives taking over in Florida worry about the bulldozer"

I took a walk there .It was sad to see a bulldozer crushed Florida box turtle .

I agree that the snake pops.in Kansas and every other place should be managed. Kansas requires a licence(72.00 bucks for out of state) for collectors and has a bag limit.
I don't see a "high demand for them in the commercial pet trade"PC.The popular snakes are sure not NA milks they are those snakes from south and central america and the designer snakes that everyone loves so much.I dont think I have ever sold a snake but I do give hatchling away to people that I think can care for them and I have traded.
PC where are your snakes from ?
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"You look like a guy caught smugling reptiles in his pants" John McCain to David Letterman
Doug L

pc allen wrote,
"I often see locale animals caught for collections and profit on this forum."

It is legal to collect sypila and gentilis in Kansas w/ a permit, which is easy to obtain.
As for profit made from wild caught syspila/gentilis I seriously doubt much profit has been made by anyone.
Some neonates get produced every year, and it's done for the joy of working w/ the animals more then it is for the profit. The profit from syspila/gentilis neonates is slim to none.

pc allen wrote,
"due to the high demand for them in the commercial pet trade."
What is high demand, 40, 60, 100 animals in a given year? It would be interesting to look back over the Kingsnake classified adds to see how many gentilis were offered for sale last year. I bet you could count the adds on two hands, and two of those adds would be for wild caught gentilis.
I think your backyard is safe from over collection, given the number of syspila/gentilis in Douglas county, Kansas.

If your interested in pursuing this idea further, I would read Brian Hubbs book, Mountain Kings, a collective natural history.
Page 231, chapter 19, Habitat Damage, Destruction and Game Management.

-Dell

I agree with you 100%. There's very little hobbyist demand for native Kansas milks. The hobby is dominated by non-USA subspecies (Hondurans, Pueblans, Nelsons, etc.).

As for the box turtle statement, Box Turtles have been collected by the ten of thousands and exported oversees. North American milks have not. Box Turtles have a much longer maturation time than a milk snake and lower reproductive rate. Box Turtles can't really be "sustainably harvested" like other types of wildlife.

Tim

He cited a paper from 1974....well before several ssp. of CA milks were even discovered.

It gets personal when its in your backyard for sure, but citing a paper that old is hardly relavent almost 10 years into the next century. I think they should be even more liberal with the permitting(all states)process, if someone takes the time to fill out and pay for a permit they will take alot better care of their bounty. Simple fact is captive breeding has put commercial collectors out of business, not the law. Most LE wouldnt be able to ID a milksnake to ssp. or state either.
I think if you have legally collected a snake their progeny shouldnt "hurt" you....that means that states allowing 2 of a species should reword that to "WC", and all CB animals should not be considered as part of "possesion". As it stands now you can be breaking the law by successfully propogating!
Remember most of these older laws were not made and are no way applicable to the advent of captive breeding.
I referenced the amount(%)of WC in people's collections a week or so back. I think too many people are resting on the laurels of others and not dealing with some of the more difficult(yet rewarding)ssp..

I have general problems with blanket prohibitions. The take should be controlled but complete protection from collectors is overkill.
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Darwin Rocks!

As it has been stated, I am in the opinion that a few snakes to improve or start a collection seems reasonable to me. Something has to be done about the turtle situation though.

Especially when commercial development isn't
slowed down at all. Just what the world and wildlife needs,
another Wal-Mart!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

I have a question that I have considered for a while now. I have a few W/C animals that I would like to breed eventually, and I have considered releasing a few of the offspring back into the wild to make up for the ones I captured. Where I am stuck is this: if i release a couple babies, they are likely to fall to predation. If I grow them to sub adult size, then I am releasing an animal that may not be prepared to sustain itself? Am i completely off base in my thinking? have any of you done this?
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

I'm of the mind that once held captive snakes or their offspring should not be released back into the wild. Doing so has backfired in the past. The population should be able to sustain a limited take. If not it was likely on its way out anyway.
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Darwin Rocks!

Thanks for all the replies; everyone has some good points. Some animals collected every year will probably not deplete the population and habitat destruction is a bigger problem; but what's the problem with catch and release? Isn't it selfish to take an animal out of its natural habitat and put it in a plastic shoe box just for your own enjoyment? And as for the quote from 1974 being dated; yes you are correct it is dated but what happens when a hypo Syspila population is found?

I do not want to start something here but do you keep dogs or cats? Is that cruel? Where do you draw the line? My wife likes her cat and I like snakes.Period. I see your point and respect your opinion. If you read the posts you will see that most people here do not collect large amounts of snakes from the wild and keep only those that we feel will improve the health or look of our captive collections. Captive. ANY pets we keep are captive.

...where do you draw that line? All animals kept as pets, whether in shoe boxes or not, originate from W/C ancestors. Birds, cats, dogs, tropical fish, whatever. It all started with someone going out into nature and removing a living organism for the purpose of keeping it at home.

Is it selfish to keep animals? Maybe it's a little narcissistic to think that I should be able to have a slice of natural beauty in my home - living art, if you will. Is it immoral and reprehensible? I hardly think so...
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Diego

SWCHR

"but what happens when a hypo Syspila population is found?"

Collect yourself a trio and make a killing!! J/K
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Diego

SWCHR

The existing line of "hypo" red milks was started by someone breeding 2 wc snakes from completely different locales. If it werent for people keeping wc snakes most of our "domestic strains" would never exist.

"What happens when a hypo syspila population is found?"

Hypo syspila have been found already. The population of syspila are still there and so are the hypos.
Triangulum are not that easy to find again and again, it's time comsuming work, the season to hunt them when it is most productive is short. Triangulum populations will always be strong as long as their habitat is large and intact.

Catch and release is great, do it all the time w/ fish, frogs, snakes, spiders ect... but can you tell me what is wrong w/ keeping a few animals as enjoyment or interest.

-Dell

I have a question that I have considered for a while now. I have a few W/C animals that I would like to breed eventually, and I have considered releasing a few of the offspring back into the wild to make up for the ones I captured. Where I am stuck is this: if i release a couple babies, they are likely to fall to predation. If I grow them to sub adult size, then I am releasing an animal that may not be prepared to sustain itself? Am i completely off base in my thinking? have any of you done this?
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

I have a question that I have considered for a while now. I have a few W/C animals that I would like to breed eventually, and I have considered releasing a few of the offspring back into the wild to make up for the ones I captured. Where I am stuck is this: if i release a couple babies, they are likely to fall to predation. If I grow them to sub adult size, then I am releasing an animal that may not be prepared to sustain itself? Am i completely off base in my thinking? have any of you done this?

There's a few things involved. here. Number one, it is illegal in many states to release any captive animals into the wild, native or not. Some states don't even want you to release WC animals after they've been in your possession for more than a few days. The idea here is that released animals could carry diseases that can hurt wild populations. A great example of that is what happened the Desert Tortoises in CA. Only those with permits are allowed to do this, and it's usually a university or other organization - not private individuals.

Another thing to consider is the biological load of the land where you release the animals. Nature has a way of balancing itself out. Tracts of land can only support so many animals, and the numbers are determined by predation, disease, and abundance of food. If you overload a habitat with snakes, you might make them all suffer by introducing pathogens or depleting their food supply. It is a delicate balance that is best protected by not tearing up habitat when collecting and obviously by keeping development to a minimum in natural habitat.
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Diego

SWCHR

...was supposed to be in quotes. Sorry!
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Diego

SWCHR

Looks like I will scratch the idea! It's not like the ones I have would have survived in the wild anyway, as one (baby yellow rat) was found in my old home in Florida under the wife's purse, and another (baby eastern milk) was plucked off of a decently traveled road.
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1.0 C/B Brooks
0.1 C/B Lavender brooks
0.0.1 W/C Scarlet King
0.0.1 W/C Eastern Milk
0.0.1 W/C Yellow Rat
0.0.1 W/C Western Garter
1.0 C/B Black Lab
1.0 C/B Min. PoodleXAmer. Eskimo hybrid
1.0 C/B Goofy Cat
1.2 C/B Children
0.1 W/C wife

Your regs. might be different, but worth checking into. Good job saving the snakes!

Check your game laws prior to releasing those snake. It is illegal to release any captive bred snake in Md. Even if it came from w/c specimans. It is also illegal to release a w/c snake after it has been in your possession for more than thirty days. Kind of strange but true.

Mr Allen you collected one yourself a few months back and posted here looking for help feeding it, didn't you? I'm guessing that was for private interest too?

I caught several Syspila last spring but released them. I think this is a great discussion. I was playing devil's advocate a bit but I may also be calling into question the entire practice of keeping "pets".

You're stepping into "slippery slope" ethics, here. It's a long slide, so be careful...

-Cole

Made for some good points though did'nt it? I myself joined this forum so that I may learn from some of these fellow hobbyist and to join in the conversation. All for the better care of the snakes I keep. Allen, we are on the same side. Most of us here are law abiding citizens with a love for snakes/reptiles and nature. We also want to protect our natural resources. Your efforts would be put to great use lobbying for better conservation laws. We are not out "raping" the wilds. I am not saying it does not happen, because it does, and most of us here want it stopped also. Cheers.

I'm 100% against "brokers" collecting everything in sight just to dump on some pet store that hasn't got a clue on care, feeding,etc.
These pet stores count on fast turn around and profit. Private collecting by experienced keepers (to keep genetics open) is OK, but permits should be on the table for all. Too much valuable habitat is going to land developers and sadly depleting whatever is left out there.

Mike

All,

There is nothing wrong with collecting, selling or even killing animals that have been taken in a sustainable manner, even turtles. Most herp populations are huge and all the collecting in the world will not hurt them. Habitat destruction and human population growth are the big problems that no one is doing much about. Don't believe all the hype and agenda pushed by academics and animal rights groups. Many academics don't want any collecting thus they are really preservationists not conservationists. Conservation means wise use not NO use. And there are way more recreational collectors out there then commercial ones. Your few snakes you collect add up so let's cut all this holyer than though crap. The midwest US is loaded with milks, millions and millions. Remember, they are fossorial so you don't see them. There should be a large bag limit on milks, 5 per person is a joke. And since we are not doing anything about development, collecting should be encouraged especially in areas slated for development. With collecting those gene pools are preserved in captivity, without it those gene pools go extinct. Let's quit playing games and being so noble. We live in a capitalistic society and everything costs money so wild caught should be allowed to be sold. And if the harvest is sustainable then there are no worries. Think for yourselves and educate yourself. Just because someone has some letters after their name doesn't mean that everything they say or believe is the correct way to go.

Later,

Welkerii