Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click here to visit Classifieds

Question

vcaruso15 Dec 23, 2008 01:14 PM

If I choose to breed my ball python with a Burm or retic or woma or gtp or jcp or blood why should anyone care?

If that is what I choose to produce what is the problem. These animals are never going back to the wild.

It doesnt have to be about greed or money either. Will I sell my surplus babies for a price that the market will support? Sure, why wouldnt I. I may not be in it for the money but it would be stupid to sell them for less than what their worth. That would be like producing Lavender Albinos because I like them but giving away my surplus because im not in it for the money lol.

One of the biggest questions asked on this forum is what morphs should I invest in, and the answer very often given is breed what you like and dont worry about the money. So why should the answer change if I like ball blood burm woma jcp gtp retic crosses.

Replies (10)

jyohe Dec 23, 2008 01:37 PM

how do you spell Deja Vous.......???

....anyways...

reason...

you breed a burmball.....

the babies are sold.......they breed it back to ball....they breed babies back to ball...and after a few years down the road...there are these balls around that are a whole new morph of ghost that are really cool...and just happen to be co-dominant if you put it along with the amel gene....now someone buys a buch and then they get out,die,are busted and have the stuff confiscated, divorced and wife sells babies...whatever...and the little balls are sold to the world....or given away ....and them people take it and breed it to like 9 females and make a whole bunch of babies....sell them at less than half price and crash the market for this color....and all the F5 or F6 babies are all out there in collections...and are actually burmese crossed balls with the new gene that actually comes from the burm....and the people that have it don't like or want hybrids of any kind.....but they got lied to and screwed unknowingly to them......

.............it has happened already in corns,milksnakes,ratsnakes, pythons and alot of other things.....

....
-----
......
..........
.........

brianlovescheese Dec 23, 2008 01:49 PM

We've also decided that roadrunners must be stoped at all cost. We start the war on roadrunners today my friend.

TONIGHT WE DINE AT OLIVE GARDEN!!!
"300" reference lol
-----
Pastel 1.0
Spider 1.0
Normals 1.2
Het Pied 1.0
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 1.0

fatjay Dec 23, 2008 04:28 PM

Like jyohe said, we don't want mutts in our collection, even if they are kinda cool looking mutts.

And morally, if they don't breed in nature, why breed them in captivity?
-----
1.0 Pastel Ball
1.1 Het VPI Axanthic Balls
1.1 Het Albino Balls
0.1 Normal Balls
0.0.1 Red Tail Boas
1.0 Albino Nelsons Milksnake
1.1 Room mates
2.2 Dogs
0.1 Cat

ohernz Dec 23, 2008 05:01 PM

it's DEJA VU

i agree with the reasons for not breeding hybrids. i am morally against hybridization, be it in pythons, any other snakes or any other exotic pets... but i realize if it can be done it will be done unless there isn't a market for the hybrids and i doubt that.
-----
Neutiquam erro. Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.

dmasio13 Dec 23, 2008 04:24 PM

Well I have to say I agree although I dont plan on making any but if its what you want to do then shoot for the stars. And as far as the the 5th or 6th generation of hybrids getting back into collections unknowingly there has been worse things happen in this industry.
-----
Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

fatjay Dec 23, 2008 04:29 PM

But why add to the list of 'worse things'?
-----
1.0 Pastel Ball
1.1 Het VPI Axanthic Balls
1.1 Het Albino Balls
0.1 Normal Balls
0.0.1 Red Tail Boas
1.0 Albino Nelsons Milksnake
1.1 Room mates
2.2 Dogs
0.1 Cat

dmasio13 Dec 23, 2008 04:45 PM

Because humanity can do things its not always the best thing to do, why over populate the earth? Why pollute the planet? Why kill more than we need to eat? You know why, because we are human...........
-----
Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

Ghireptiles Dec 23, 2008 07:54 PM

you like. Why should you care what other people think?
-----
Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

brianlovescheese Dec 24, 2008 01:10 PM

I won't do it personally, but if you do, be sure you tell them what it is.
-----
Pastel 1.0
Spider 1.0
Normals 1.2
Het Pied 1.0
Leopard Geckos 1.1
American Bulldog 1.0

RandyRemington Dec 24, 2008 06:51 PM

I propose that hybrids have a much bigger impact on future keepers than naturally occurring ball python mutations do.

If you don't like the occasional side effects of the spider mutation they are pretty easy to avoid, don't buy or breed a spider. Same goes for any of the dominant/co-dominant mutations. Recessive like caramel is a grayer area. There might come a day when people accidentally produce kinked caramels from unknown hets. People who produce possible het caramels (and I'm one of them) have some impact on future ball python breeders.

But to me hybrids are the caramel case 10 fold. It's only a matter of a very little time before the decedents of hybrids are mixed into the general populations.

Some breeders do a good job of tracking linage and passing that information on but I believe most are like me and often don't take the time. Someone recently posted a pic of two pastel clowns. Was this the first year for that combo or was last year? At any rate it's a very rare and new morph and the current owner didn't know if the two animals are siblings or not. Not really a big deal or a bad reflection on either the seller or the purchaser but just an example of how quickly linage information is lost even on very special animals. If there aren't already unknown hybrids in the general ball python population it's only a mater of a few more years until there are.

On another forum someone who I believe has a scientific background (I don't) pointed out some studies where crosses of related but different looking plants or animals are made and then those crosses are bred together and the ratio of offspring that look like each of the two grandparents tells how many mutations separate the original plants or animals. The point was that a surprisingly small number of mutations (5 or 6) might separate the appearance of two species but I'm not convinced those visible mutations are the only differences. While we might get some animals that could pass for pure balls or pure burms fairly quickly from breeding hybrids together or even quicker by breeding them back to either parent species I believe there would still be many harder to see genetic differences between those hybrid descendants and the original species. After probably millions of years of separation these other differences could well effect chemicals needed for breeding or cycling or incompatibilities causing health issues or reduced life span.

The cost of us enjoying a very few problematic naturally occurring recessive ball python mutations that future ball breeders might not want to reproduce (caramel is the only one I can think of, and I for one would still be very happy to produce a caramel) is that some future ball python breeders might want to track lineages for caramel occurrence. However, the cost of the first ball python hybrid is that all future ball python breeders may have many difficult to detect incompatible genes to worry about that might shorten the life or reduce the breeding effectiveness of their animals and at the very least change a few of the aspects of what makes each species unique.

Site Tools