Reptile & Amphibian Forums

so i got some live feeders the other day...gave them the thump and fed 2 of my 6 boas....i have 2 sets breeding right now and i think my big female is gravid...

well today i see2 mites in the cage that the snakes were fed in...now im worried that they all have or will get them....i dont wanna move the gravid female...how should i go about treating for mites when they are breeding....could i use the pest strip just for like 2 days and take it out but keep one in my snake room and then in a few days put the pest strips back in the cage for 2 more days to try and rid them?

i dont know any other way to treat them when they are breeding and i dont wanna disturb them if i dont have to...but i dont want the mites hurting my snakes either..i love them too much..

please help

greg

I'd be slightly worried about using pest strip with gravid fem.
If you want to try pest strip cut it into half inch by half inch pieces.
Then put it(pest strip chunk) in a small container with holes in the container.
For instance pill bottle with holes drilled in it.Put that pill bottle with small chunk pest strip in it into cage.
I personally would take the Boas out clean cage .
Treat cage with either 0.50% permethrin type product or....

Even better and less toxic would be to Just use Cow & Pig Ivermectin formula - mix 1cc Ivermectin with 1 quart of water
Then spray on snake ,the snake bedding everything.
Turns out this is an extremely effective treatment with very low
toxicity making this probably the safest option in my opinion.

Also below is a Link to different forum discussion on mite treatments.
If you want extensive info about mites this thread contains alot of info Links.
. . . . . Lar M
Mites

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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Do mites just show up from out of nowhere or do they have to be brought in? Ive been lucky so far in 3 and a half years to not get any. At least according to the signs that Ive read. Thanks...

1.1 Argentines (Thor,Mathilda)
2 corn snakes
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"And as always. thanks in Advance"

I was just talking to a friend about this the other day. I use Ivermectin as treatment/preventative treatment for Demodex on my dogs. This has proven to be very effective as an injection against skin parasites as well as heart worms. I was wondering if it would work on my boas as an injectable anti-parasitic? Knock on wood this was just a thought as I haven't had a mite in my collection for years. Maybe someone with a more intimate knowledge of this medicine can chime in...

While Ivomec can be used relatively safely as a diluted topical spray around snakes, the lethal dose when injected is extremely small. There have been cases of snakes being killed from Ivomec injections and it is definitely not worth the risk. If one is going to use Ivomec, stay with the diluted topical spray method.

Kelly

Thanks Kelly, I was hoping you'd stop by. Well that takes care of the injection question but I am intrigued by the possibility of using this as a topical spray. I'm guessing the dose given earlier of 1cc/quart of water is the common one, but I'd like to know more details about actually using this method. Is this to be directly sprayed on the animal and bedding avoiding the head and water supply? How often should this be done and should this be strictly a treatment for infected animals or can this be used as a preventative method. Sorry for all the questions but I usually keep Ivermectin on hand and if this is an effective weapon in the war against mites I'd like to know how to properly use it. Besides that I just like to pick your brain when I get the chance LOL!

Thanks and no problem, and my brain doesn’t have much to pick. The only solution I have seen specifically is 5 mg, not 5 cc’s, of ivermectin to one quart of water. From other references I have seen from other people, this appears to be about right. It is sprayed on the snake and cage interior, and avoid the head and remove the water like you said.

Kelly

I wouldn't be using ivermectin to prevent demodex either. demodectic mange is not thought of as contagious and most dogs that contract it are either puppies that still have a naive immune system or immunocomprimised adults. Many dogs actually live with demodex on them and just do not get it because they have working immune systems. Ivermectin is NOT a benign drug and there are many reported sensitivities, mostly in herding breeds. Sarcoptic mange on the other hand does need to be prevented, but that is as simple as using monthly Frontline Plus.

www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=630

I agree on demodex being present on many dogs and only becomes a problem due to a comprised immune system or sometimes puppy hood. I also agree that it should not be used on all breeds, this was a recommended treatment from the breeders I have purchased dogs from and cleared with several Vets I use for my dogs. Definitely not something you should just pick up at the supply store and start using.

It's always good to see that people do their homework. Ivermectin is very safe when used appropriately in dogs, but it's definitely not one to accidentally misplace the decimal with when calculating.

any others suggestions...i know some of the breeders here have gone through this at some point..i need to do something today...killin me that they could be in pain...do i take her out of cage and soak her and treat cage...can it hurt her in anyway takin her out...shes very large...about 11.5 ft or so and like 55lbs...she dont just come out of cage easy...she dont bite she just get skidish

Also thought I'd add, I don't know if you thought that the rodents may have been carrying the mites or not, but if they were, they were just hitching a ride. Reptile mites and rodent mites are not the same, and reptile mites won't survive on a rodent for long. I have asked several folks about this in the past, out of curiousity since mites are so hard to get rid of sometimes, and that was the response I got. They, and their eggs, can travel on virtually anything of course. I just thought I'd throw it out there so you know, generally, that you don't have to worry about mites on feeders... which is a good thing!
Also, I use Provent-a-mite as a general mite eradicator and when I'm cleaning I use it on my cages as a preventative now... to avoid potential infestations later on. So in my case, I'd wait until they were separated (not courting or copulating) and remove them and the water bowl to spray the cage down very lightly with a mite killer (I like to do it during cleaning before adding bedding when I am concerned for the condition of the snake); then replace them and the water bowl after the spray has dried and fumes disapated. Other folks use Black Knight II or Equate bedding spray which I hear works well. For the most part though, if you can do what Lar M mentioned in the above post, that would (as he said) be less toxic and preferable with boas in a possibly gravid state if you are worried about any after or side effects.
Good luck! I hate mites....
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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
0.1 Anery poss. het snow (Missy)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
1.1 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Bonnie)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.3 BPs (MJ, Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
0.1 Blood python (Akaia)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)

Black Knight is still the undisputed Champ for Reptile mite eradication.Far Superior to anything in market history.

Equate is effective,far more effective then P*M,add to that the consumer convenience of purchasing at any Walmarts makes it a current consumer favorite.

More is not better! Common Sense is Paramount !
Its much easier to avoid the sources,pet stores,reptile venues and poor breeding facilties.

Regards,

However, even some good breeders who own pet stores have trouble managing mites since they are so incredibly persistent; especially high traffic reptile stores with a lot of trading and wholesaling going on in both directions. I actually have a fairly small collection and yes, the animals that came in with mites were from high traffic places, but not crappy or uneducated places with poor care for their animals. Mites do happen, but yes, it does help to avoid breeders or stores with poor conditions. I mention this because I am friends with a breeder who owns a pretty well kept store with healthy animals and yes, I have seen mites come in on new shipments. Some of which I've bought and brought home to rid them of mites myself via quarantine and PAM. It helps to be cautious and educated in what you buy of course and to practice quarantine with all animals, even those from reputable breeders.
I started using PAM because at the time I think the original BK was out of commission until they came out with BKII, so it was the only thing I knew of besides Reptile Relief (that didn't work for me), I am using up my last can of PAM(which has lasted a very long time since I do not have a reason to use it (besides for prevention and quarantine) and when that runs out, perchance I will find an opportunity to try Equate or BKII, I am not above trying new things... I merely stated that PAM has worked well for me in ridding me of a HUGE problem in the past and keeping my animals free and clear.I did make a point to mention all of the products that I heard worked well! No product preaching here, just a good review!

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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
0.1 Anery poss. het snow (Missy)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
1.1 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Bonnie)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.3 BPs (MJ, Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
0.1 Blood python (Akaia)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)

Pretty much exactly what I was referencing.
Shops that fail to properly handle animals should be avoided.
Receiving rooms(quarantine/isolation)should be in place to "control" and "prevent" parasitic transfers.

There is no excuse for having animals with mites on the sales floor.If they cant allow a few days to clean up their stock then
their sales "should" reflect such.

Respectfully,

>>However, even some good breeders who own pet stores have trouble managing mites since they are so incredibly persistent; especially high traffic reptile stores with a lot of trading and wholesaling going on in both directions. I actually have a fairly small collection and yes, the animals that came in with mites were from high traffic places, but not crappy or uneducated places with poor care for their animals. Mites do happen, but yes, it does help to avoid breeders or stores with poor conditions. I mention this because I am friends with a breeder who owns a pretty well kept store with healthy animals and yes, I have seen mites come in on new shipments. Some of which I've bought and brought home to rid them of mites myself via quarantine and PAM. It helps to be cautious and educated in what you buy of course and to practice quarantine with all animals, even those from reputable breeders.
>> !
>>
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>>Steph

While both of these products have the same active ingredient in the same concentration, there is one formulation difference. Equate uses a petroleum distillate as a carrier while PAM does not. Petroleum distillates are toxic and I would be careful with the use of Equate. Make sure you do not spray directly on any snake, and after spraying down the cage and/or furnishings, wait an hour or so and then rinse everything off well before reintroducing the snake back into the cage. If used carefully, Equate can probably be used successfully without adverse reactions.

Kelly

I'm glad you brought this info to my attention Kelly. I once attempted to nail all the ingredients on the label .Comparing each product ingredient label to each other. It appeared all the ingredients were the same except 2-3 if I remember right maybe less plus basically just a couple formula differences. I'm absolutely not educated as a Chemist and I'm totally clueless as to what I'm looking at when chemicals like in "RiD" Lice treatment everything is the same on both like [ (3-phenoxphenyl)listed on RID can but (3-phenoyxphenyl)listed on P-A-M can] methyl+_cis/trans3-(2,2dichloroethenyl)2,2dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate
Cis/trans ratio: min 35% +_ cis and max 65% +- trans
What is different is the cis/trans ratio RID being minimum 35%cis and P-A-M being max 40% cis but the trans are the same at 65%max but minimum is P-A-M min(60%) RID min unlisted. So the same chemicals appear to be in similar proportions etc.. Although Equate reads slightly different if remember don't have can and Generic forms often have no label for inactive ingredients. Although now I see on the back of the Generic can the petroleum distillate is listed. Not so with "RID" no petroleum distillate listed yet I'm certain it uses that process. You can feel that oily consistency on your hand when washing it off.
So my point is I no nothing of what those chemicals listed mean or what they are,LOL. Pretty much the same on each can plus active ingredients are always the same permethrin 0.50% .
What I'm really curious about is how inactive ingredients can actually affect Reptile etc ?... This is something I've always been concerned and curious about ? Just because its listed as inactive doesn't mean it may not be harmful yes or no ?
Thanks Kelly always enjoy your input and also you Joley.
. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

guys i have pam i can use...my main issue here is should i take my possible gravid female out of the cage and soak her? will i complicate or hurt her or anything by takin her out and soakin her while i clean the cages? i got 2 females on im pretty sure gravid and one still coppulating with males....

i didnt wanna disturb or harm any thats why i thought of the pest strips as a alternative for now...these are my main concerns..i dont wanna do disturb or hurt them but separating and actually handling such a big female who could be gravid

In my opinion it depends how far along she is. 4-6 weeks you could take her out don't soak her or stress her out,try to keep stress to a minimum.
You said she is 11.5 feet that's huge,and she doesn't like coming out wow.
So try to make it as stress free as possible,that's the best I can suggest.
If it were me I'd really want to get rid of the mites.
This is why I suggested the Ivermectin formula.You could leave her in and spray down her and the bedding with in the enclosure.
. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

where can i get this stuff to spray her with ur talkin about lar m?

You'd probably see it at farming needs feed stores etc...
I know here North. IL. Farm & Fleet carries this as well as Tylosin,and a few other
Antibiotic type medications on the shelf.
Read my directions carefully pig & cow Ivermectin
Hope this helps
. . . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

As Lar said, if you went into any Tractor Supply or other farming store and asked for 1% Ivermectin solution you should find it. If you're the online type:

www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=30E07552-7B6A-11D5-A192-00B0D0204AE5&ccd=IFF003&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_content=21523,21524,21525

I know what you mean and you are absolutely correct. Many times these unlisted inactive ingredients could be an issue when it comes to using them on an animal that is not necessarily the intended target use for the product. They could easily be a toxicity issue. The cis/trans ratio refers to the shape of the specific molecule being referred too and the ratios of each in the formulation. These molecules have the same chemical formula, but in the trans form, the isomer has the main distinguishing atom on opposite sides of the molecule, were in the cis form, they are on the same side of the molecule. That’s about the best way I can describe it. The question I can’t answer is what the actual effect the different trans/cis ratios have on the effectiveness and/or toxicity of the chemical. Someone else with more organic chemistry knowledge than myself will need to answer that one. Seeing that the actual shape, and not the formula, of the molecule is different, I would still suspect that it would react differently. Also, interesting observation on the PAM ingredients, 2,2dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate is also one of the ingredients in Black Knight.

Kelly

Thanks Kelly I actually understand your explanation of cis/trans ratio,LOL.
2,2dimethylcyclopropanecarboxylate seems to be an equally common ingredient.
. . . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

That's very interesting Kelly. I didn't know that Equate had petroleum distillates. I know whenever I get them on my hands working around cars (e.g. cleaners, SeaFoam) I actually break out in a rash so I won't be using Equate anytime soon. External parasite control is always a challenge in my eyes because no matter what really you are doing a balancing act with fairly potent chemicals. What about using the Frontline spray since that's approved for pregnant and lactating dogs/cats?

This is strictly my opinion because I am not overly familiar with the toxicology of Fipronil, the active chemical in Frontline. It is appears to be not overly toxic to mammals, but is highly toxic to insects, fish and many bird species. It is a potent central nervous system disruptor in affected organisms. I have not seen any toxcity data for reptiles, but my guess would be that it would be too toxic to use on reptiles. Mammals appear to be the only taxa were the toxcity is relatively low based on their CNS chemistry. Good question.

Kelly

can be used...on snakes with very good results, altough I must ephasize it was not designed specifically for reptiles. Anyway, I have been using for several years /as many other boa keepers do/ as a routine on my freshly arrived boas and I have always been able to stop mite infection in a maximum of 10 days. That means I had to use Frontline two times, because it is effective for about 5 days. Otherwise you should use it as long as you see living mites. It is very effective IMO and I suggest to use it!

There are few things that you have to heed when using Frontline.

1. Area of mouth, eyes, nostrils must not contact Frontline! Simply leave those areas free. Otherwise, you should anoint the entire body.
2. Fipronil is dissolved in alcohol, so when you have dispersed Frontline on the snake's body, you have to wait a few mins until you put it back into the enclosure. Otherwise, vaporising alcohol could cause taxic symptoms.
3. I suggest you to use a plastic glove, because Frontline can cause "salivation" on humans.
4. When using Frontline, you have to prevent snakes from soaking, to inhibit washing it off.

I haven't used it on gravid females, but if I had one, I wouldn't hesitate. Frontline has a big advantage: it remains on the surface of the body, not enter into the tissues, blood, etc. Mites will be killed as they changing areas for blood sucking. When the mite finds a new area to eat, it will be contact fipronil that kills it. So to me, it seems much more safe than using for example Ivermectin on a gravid female.

Hope this helps!

Adam

what frontline are u using? do u have pics of it?

...this spray. Look for as FRONTLINE SPRAY.
Good luck.

All the best,
Adam