Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
This is my first attempt at sharing pics of my enormous collection of four boas. These pics are of a pair of longicauda that I got this past weekend. I am wondering if anyone thinks that these may or may not be true longicauda? Both are in shed.
Thanks and enjoy!
Chris

Too close for me to call. Denton, you got anything on this??

They look quite colombian-ish to me. Maybe a mix?

There are several markers seen here to ID these as Boa Constrictor Longicauda.Being young juveniles they carry similarities with other boa strains,"similarities" at best.

Abit of research on BCL would reveal they are anatomically incompatible with recognized BCI strains.
That data is somewhat dated,with the "no taboo" breeding practices/attempts by the modern era there is no way to say for sure someone hasnt tried it.

Regards,

>>They look quite colombian-ish to me. Maybe a mix?

Longicauda can and do inter breed with Boa Constrictor Ortoni in the wild and Ortoni also inter breed with B.C.C on the other side of their range. they do have a longer hemipene then other boas, but i think we all know that a 18 month old 3 ft male can breed a 9ft female, so size probable doesn't matter that much. most people that have know longicauda tend to shy away from cross in them but as they become more wide available that could change.

...I would quote only one thing: ARTIFICIAL SYSTEMS like species and subspecies were created to help for understanding natural groups of animals and their relationships. Not vica versa!
So it is a kind of weird when we are talking about "interbreedings in the wild". Boas can not interbreed in the wild, because interbreeding is something that is related with human intervention.
Of course, there exist several transitional forms in the wild that we can't recognise as separate subspecies. But this is simply because our human created systems have just too many limits. That does not mean that these populations should be considered or called as
"interbreds" IMO. I hope you see my point.

Regards,
Adam

ok inter grades rather then inter breed but my point is that longicauda are able to breed with other species from our point of view (if not the snakes) so labeling them as wild inter breeding from our point of view is a valid label.

If I'm not mistaken, they are all of different subspecies, not different species, so intergradation is certainly possible, by definition.
Unless they change the taxonomy.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

You are right, but I didn't state they are different species. I just wanted to demonstrate that systems like these (species, subspecies and all the other taxa) have a lot of deficiencies(they have no accurate definiton until these days!!!) , so it is more complex than "you see a boa and put it in a taxonomy group like subspecies".
There are boas in the wild that are showing characteristics of 2 or even more subspecies. You may can't recognise these boas as a separate subspecies. However, these populations should be considered just as pure boas as the others that can be recognised as subspecies. That was my original point that I wanted to clear. And that's why it doesn't make any sense to talk about "interbreeding", "crossbreeding", "mixing", "overlaping" in the wild. Because this is not what actually happens.

Adam

When two separately identifiable subspecies of the same species overlap in geographic range, those individuals within that overlapping range often contain identifiable features from both subspecies. They are considered "intergrades" of those subspecies. They're all the same species.
You are loosing me with what you're saying. What is your point?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

If One imagines these "overlaps" like lets say a "Boa c. constrictor meets a Boa c. amarali in Brazil and are producing transitional forms with features from both subspecies" than you are far from the truth. This is why I think these terms like "overlaping" are senseless when talking about wild populations.

I believe the truth is that populations of Boa constrictor vary from area to area (we all know that and agree with it). Some of these populations are distict (and thus can be recognised as subspecies by taxonomist for better understanding), some of them are not (and taxonomy CAN NOT HANDLE these populations, because it has just too many limits).

So when One is thinking a little more evolutionary and not as a "boa keeper" when observing boas in the wild, One will see that artifically created terms like "subspecies" lose their sense at some point.

My point was that using terms like "interbreeding", "overlaping", etc. on wild populations are rather misleading than informative, because this is not what actually happens out there.
I hope I could clear this up.

Well put, it is sometimes so hard for us to grasp the concept of human manipulated "intergrades" and Mother natures blending of two or more different traits.

Well done.
Joel

Agreed !
BOT,I believe those animals in the pics are indeed BCL.
I would also be interested in further info on their origins.

Regards,

>>Well put, it is sometimes so hard for us to grasp the concept of human manipulated "intergrades" and Mother natures blending of two or more different traits.
>>
>>Well done.
>>Joel

some more back ground would be helpful. but they do look like a number of pure longi lines that i know. in 2010 when they are just slightly bigger then a 2 month old Colombian i would say thats a pretty good hint that they are true longi's. but it wouldn't hurt to do a scale count.

These babies parents are unrelated and came from Chris McQuade of Gulf coast serpentarium, They are supposedly het for anery. I traded a pair of sub adult brazillian rainbows for them. The rainbows were making me bleed a little more than I care for. They are about 1 foot long, and I believe he said they were born in May? I will try to call him to verifiy the birth date.
I will also do some scale counts when they shed.
Thanks again.
Chris

Thats confirmation enough right there.
Gulf Coast Reptiles has some nice animals.

Congrats on a solid acquisition !!

>>These babies parents are unrelated and came from Chris McQuade of Gulf coast serpentarium, They are supposedly het for anery. I traded a pair of sub adult brazillian rainbows for them. The rainbows were making me bleed a little more than I care for. They are about 1 foot long, and I believe he said they were born in May? I will try to call him to verifiy the birth date.
>>I will also do some scale counts when they shed.
>>Thanks again.
>>Chris

the gulf coast animals are pure longicauda. I have one from them that is a Lincoln X Meltzer stock animals and i think most of their babies are from that cross. both lincoln (better know for her work as the originator of hypo sonorans) and Meltzer had large groups of the original wild caught animals and both produced anerys F1 babies. old pic of my meltzer female.

So now that I have found the Longicauda folks, is there anything I should be doing different for these snakes? I currently have them in 32 qt sterilite tubs, hot spot of 85 at surface, 92-94 at below the aspen. The cool side is 72-74. The male has a bit of retained shed, and the female looks like she has been shedding good. I usually mist my boas when they are blue, is this still good practice for these snakes?

I tried to call the guy I got them from but got no answer. I was fairly confident he was honest with me about their lineage. There was another vendor at the show selling offspring from the same clutch, but for a higher price. And he even pointed me to the guy I got them from. I dont know if anyone here has been to the St. Louis shows, but they are not too bad really. Not the NARBC, but lots of good folks, and its fun.

What matters most is that I am happy with them, and hope they do well for me. I am going to try feeding them Sunday for the first time, if they both shed by then.

Thanks for all the input,
Chris

as far as keeping them goes you can keep in the same ranges as Bci. they are more cold tolerant then most boas and don't seem to mind cool temps, but it not really needed. I have seen then happily cursing their cages and breed in the high 50's but i wouldn't try it. they breed just fine at normal boa temps. they will climb more then most other boas and seem to enjoy hanging out in branches and the lips on visions. the biggest difference is that they are a dwarf and need to be feed as such. I feed smaller meals to them then i would a Colombian of the same size. i keep mine on mice for the first year and don't offer rats at all for that first year. also i don't worry about them skipping meals. i offer food ever 7 days but if they show interest in 30 seconds or so they don't get feed. my female general eat every week but males often skip a couple here and there. my old breeder male would only eat ever 6 weeks or so (i'd offer he just didn't care most of the time).

Thank you very much for the info. I will post more pics as they change over time.

Chris

To contrast,
We have several generations that have never smelt a mouse
prey item.Raised on rat prey from their first feed.
They are kept on the low side of 80* year round and are very prolific.They tend to prefer the cooler side of their cages which are a cool 70-73*.They thrive on extended feeding schedules after 6 months of age averaging 14-21 days.

BCL are a no rush boa strain,following standard BCI protocols generally results in premature births and deaths.

Regards,

>>as far as keeping them goes you can keep in the same ranges as BCI. they are more cold tolerant then most boas and don't seem to mind cool temps, but it not really needed. I have seen then happily cursing their cages and breed in the high 50's but i wouldn't try it. they breed just fine at normal boa temps. they will climb more then most other boas and seem to enjoy hanging out in branches and the lips on visions. the biggest difference is that they are a dwarf and need to be feed as such. I feed smaller meals to them then i would a Colombian of the same size. i keep mine on mice for the first year and don't offer rats at all for that first year. also i don't worry about them skipping meals. i offer food ever 7 days but if they show interest in 30 seconds or so they don't get feed. my female general eat every week but males often skip a couple here and there. my old breeder male would only eat ever 6 weeks or so (i'd offer he just didn't care most of the time).
>>

The longicaudia is a natural anerthuristic type animal..
It puzzles me as to how there can be anerthuristic B.C.L
Tim Mead

I would venture to say that the anery label is another hype for sales? At the local shows nobody gives these snakes a moments notice. I told my wife they are just ugly ducklings, she didnt believe me until I showed her pics of adults. And my 10 month old daughter calls them dogs. lol
Thanks for your input Tim
Chris Wolf

I have more info at home about their background, I will post it when I get home. Thanks for all the input so far.

Thanks
chris

Simply put,
Yes that is Longicaudia