Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just wondering what you all think. It seems more and more interest in breeding the species in captivity is happening, and there are a few people who are observing copulations now. There are at least two distinct ’morphs’ out there now (albinos and an orange phase) and for some odd reason, morphs tend to make people more interested in breeding a reptile. ProExotics is currently working on an albino Bosc project, but the last time I e-mailed them they said that they have not even observed copulation.

I was just pondering, are things looking good for my favorite species of reptile?

-Reed

I've also noticed a "green" color phase on some savannahs. Pretty light green, but noticeable. Maybe it's the locale? Anyone know anything about this? I've seen some in the classified with this color.

Still doesn't offset the thousdans and thousands that are being killed...

not even a little.

So are things really looking up?

Mike.

Mike,
I know what you mean, but, we've got to start somewhere. Plus, Rome wasn't built overnight. ("Rome..." - That's probably not a good phrase to use here, but you know what I mean.)

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I agree sir, a good first step surely.

Mike.

If I may i'm going to get on a bit of a soap box here this isn't meant to be a flame against anyone but it's somthing that has been bothering me for awhile. If anything I hope some constructive dialect will come from this.

Why is it that only albino/ morphs get people interested in breeding whats wrong with breeding just plain old fasioned looks the way they are ment to savannah's. This goes for all herp's next time you are at a show try to find a CBB normal ball python or leopard gecko they are almost impossable to find not only that but half the breeders look at you like you have two heads if you ask for one.

I'm not saying morphs are bad I own some most herpers do. but what bothers me is that it seems right now that's all people want to breed. Why havent savannah's been bred for years.... let me rephrase that why arn't they being bread in numbers. The reason MONEY again i'm not against making money as Groucho Marks once said "I've been poor and I've been rich...rich is better". But for years it has been MUCH cheaper to import them then breed them but thats no excuse for breeding not to be atempted. They can be bread I've done it and I know at least a dozen other people who have. I guess what i'm trying to say is more people need to focus at least alittle on plain old boring "pet store" species instead of only high end morphs and rare species

You say you have had success with examthematicus, great, thats more than I can say for myself. But for any person working hard to make this success happen, there needs to be some type of payoff other then the simple joy of doing it. For that joy will not be long lasting.

You see it is called the law of diminishing marginal utility. You put an effort into breeding a species and have success and feel great. You do it again and feel good about it, then again, and feel ok about, then again and it is just ehhhh....it gets old pouring effort into somthing with little tangible gain.

Without some type of payoff, that diminishing utility will come into play, most of the time. You can not compete with a $10 lizard, that costs alot of money to keep and allow success.

Are there some people that like to breed pure localitys? Sure, just look at some people in the Boa world, but most also do high end morphs while breeding pure lines.

So sir at the end of the day are you going to work with the $10 dollar lizard, or the $1000 lizard? So like you said, Money.

Mike Capanna.

And that is the difference between the herp hobby and the breeding buisness

"...there needs to be some type of payoff other then the simple joy of doing it. For that joy will not be long lasting."

(Let me throw out a disclaimer first - I'm not getting personal with anyone or trying to be a smart fanny, just trying to word things in a way to make my point. So please, don't anyone take what I say personal.)

Really? Maybe that's the whole problem. The animals that I keep, I keep out of pure joy. The animals that I breed (or, attempt to breed), I breed out of pure joy. Any money I make is nice, and another joy, but not my motive.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

AMEN brother

That is great news, infact - I bet alot of people on this particular forum are inline with that.

Also everything I said on my last post and on this one...works in reverse as well. The person working with the $1000 dollar animals purely for monetary reasons and doesn't care any about the species, will not last in the business becuase people will catch onto that all too quickly.

But you have to understand the view point that I have just made. There will not be any large scale (many breeders) captive production effort (for any costly to keep animal) when that effort must compete with that same species being imported by the thousands for a few bucks each.

Will there be people who do it for fun? Yes.
Will most of them give up on it...according to diminishing returns, I would say yes. Will all of them? No.

So please ask yourself these questions, are the animals that you are keeping and producing costly to keep and maintain?

Is that particular species imported for next to nothing by the thousands?

If the answer to both is yes and you have been producing animals long term that is phenominal and you should tell us what you produce so WE (reptile lovers) can buy from you!

Becuase, I surely would. I would pay a premium for your efforts as a matter of fact. But on the aggregate, most will not and that is too bad. Another reason that most will not is that most do not know what we know about how these creatures are treated.

But like you said Sir, starting somewhere is good and if it takes some "morphs" (have any been proven genetic traits yet???) to get the ball rolling then fine.

Thanks,
Mike.

When people refer to morphs, high orange, high yellow, high green, etc etc etc, they are looking at young normal bosc monitors (I say this because Ive seen hundreds grow up with these colors and turn dull brown, or tan).
For the few people who got some of the real albinos, I wish them all the luck they will need to get the breeding program going.
Like was mentioned, until these colors are adult colors, and express themselves genetically through captive breeding, they are no different than any other bosc monitor,
So what is wrong with just producing regular captive bred bosc monitors, there are so few in this world. They would be worth a few hundred each to anyone who appreciates a real captive bred and born monitor lizard. With the choice of imported, or real captive bred, the real monitor hobbyists would pay the premium for the real thing.
Before I got Sobek I searched for weeks only to be directed back to one source, I aplaud the dozens of businesses that told the tuth to me and admitted that they only have imported monitors. I could have paid from $18-$65 at the time to get a blackthroat, but I was willing to pay alot more for a real CBB albig. Since then other than a few given to me, I have only obtained CBB, they are worth it.

I to have seen 1000s of them, but the animals I have now don’t compare.
They don’t grow up to become dull in coloration, in fact it’s the opposite.
From what I know they start with light colors witch intensify as they grow.

The animals iv lost where adults and orange as a pumpkin, not faded in anyway, the animals I am growing at present show better colors with ever shed, one female started with faded orange, barely noticeable, she’s turning out silver body with rich orange sidings.
My other female is a light golden tan with yellow siding.
My male has blue dorsal spotting and high yellow sidings, both yellow male and female had barely noticeable yellows as babies.

This is testimony of ontogenetic color change, at least with this local of exanthematicus.
Theirs no dough whatsoever color will improve with every generation.

I will post a photo of my male evolution later on today, you be the judge.

Some nice animals, a few with great colors, real colors obviously not lighting in any of them.
There are 2 of them that to me just look like normal color variations, in fact not very noticeable compared to many Ive seen. But that red one is definitely different.
What I refer to in changes as an adult, is when these animals are twice that size, or 3 times that size. Ive had bosc that were 2 times the size of those in your pictures in their first year, long before that the colors were dull, and/or gone.
I would like to see those animals in your pictures in 2-4 years, compare the colors and patterns then.
If after 3-4 years and 30-48 inches of size, adult colors show brightly, then I would call them a bit different.
Some nice animals Jobi, keep up the pictures.

Mike,
The comment of yours that I quoted earlier - "...there needs to be some type of payoff other then the simple joy of doing it. For that joy will not be long lasting." is more often true than not. Unfortunately. It happens to the best of us, nearly all of us. But, it is usually our own fault for letting money (and other things) take precedent over what led us to breed in the first place - the joy & passion of the species. I wasn't necessarily disputing what you said, but addressing the problems behind it. You made some good & valid points.

With the learning curve involved in breeding/keeping monitors I'm not sure that anyone could be successful with them without the passion for them. I think most begin with that passion but lose sight of their original goal. We could get discouraged from our failures and drop out or we can place too much emphasis on the costs & returns.

Varanus exnathematicus, unfortunately, is a disposable, beginner's monitor to many; both inexperienced & experienced keepers that have much experience with them or do not keep them. To me personally, they are not disposable, no animal is, but, the were the cheapest way for me to try my hand with monitors without me losing much money if I failed. Niles, common corn snakes, normal ball pythons, and many other reptiles are in the same category.

It's the new reptile keeper's doing. Well...., along with those that import & sell 'em. By my own words above, I stand guilty as charged. If w/c Savannah hatchlings sold for $150 the story would be completely different. You're right - it's hard to compete with the cheap imports. And many try to do just that or look at it that way.

The goal should not be to compete with the imports, but to reduce the need & desire for imports by breeding them and educating people on their husbandry, import conditions & survival rates, preservation, etc... That takes passion, joy, with a constant check to keep us on track.

Why are many of us not the doctors, lawyers, scientists, pro ball players, etc, that we wanted to be? We either had no goals to get us there or we lost sight of our goals by not keeping ourselves in check. I'm 47 and I've just returned to my childhood goal of earning money working with animals a few years ago. I'm still not able to stand on my animals, alone, but I'm getting there. I'm a tad bit more disciplined now than when I was younger, but still have a ways to go in that area, too.

It's not going to take Savannah monitor morphs to get savs where they need to be. Morphs will do very little, if anything, for the common sav. Morphs could, however, reduce their importation due to declining interest in the common sav but history shows that morphs usually leave the normals behind, forgotten. Many times new morphs even leave the old morphs behind, forgotten.

A lot of people want the latest, greatest morph, whether it actually looks good or not. All you have to do is go to some of the other forum categories and look at how dang ugly that "brand new morph" that costs $10,000 is. Of course, some of the hyped up breeders have quite a following. I get frustrated and/or laugh when I see the pics of the new morph that is definitely not eye-pleasing in any way, shape or form, but yet all the drones chime in with, "Wow! That's incredible!"

Don't get me worng, I like some reptile/animal morphs, I'm not against them. I just "naturally" prefer normals of anything, though.

Anyway, morphs could help V. exanthematicus. I just don't think morphs should be the main goal. However, don't think for one minute that I wouldn't be proud to produce the first reverse-patterned bosc, or some other morph. But, it's not what I'm working on. Not now, at least.

SHvar made good points in his post. Time will tell. It's up to us use our time wisely, which will vary from person to person.

Thanks for the discussion & not taking things personal!

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Good points HH.

Morphs on Monitors usually seem to be ugly for the most part anyway hahahaha. Do I like some Morphs? Sure, I love the look of a Moonglow Boa, but what I really like more then that are regular normal Boa C. Longicauda and smaller forms of the Boa C. Imperators (Nigarguans and Caulkers Cay).

So everyone has their opinions ahahah. But I agree time will tell the fate of most of these animals. I think what may be the best thing for the species is a ban on importing WC and/or CH animals. That would surely drive up the price and promote captive breeding.

I would be 100% against that a year and a half ago or whenever I first got my first monitor. Now I am not, because I turned my ignorance in this particular area of reptiles and managed to learn some very interesting things.

Thanks,
Mike

" I think what may be the best thing for the species is a ban on importing WC and/or CH animals. "

Talking about Africa here. West Africa. Money and ways to make it are at a premium. It's extremely difficult to encourage the sustainable use of wildlife and protect the habitat. EXTREAMLY. One of the best ways to this has been the pet trade. Live animals become important.

Eliminating this would not prevent the harvesting it would only change it. Instead of taking mostly hatchlings and small animals for the pet trade the most expendable from wild populations. They would focus on the adults . Adults would be hunted relentlessly for food and skins. It's not known how many hatchlings survive to reproduce but if the poplar theory that's it's only a very small percentage is true. It's very conceivable that the adult population would be harvested at a much higher rate then it could be replaced.

As it stands now at least SOME consideration is given to the notion of sustainable harvest.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.
Some pics of my Facilty

My exanthematicus aren’t morphs, they are simply colourful example of one specie. I know from experience that they can be bred into color morphs, yellows, red, orange and blue striped-spotted.

I know for having worked with just about every monitor specie available, that exanthematicus have the best pet qualities amongst monitors.

Many years ago I claimed on this forum, that exanthematicus has the most color potential of all varanids, I still claim this today.

Polymorphism in color and patterning is what drives my interest (not money) add to this a very pleasant nature and this specie wins over all.

This was exavtially what I was hopeing for when I made my original comments. I was hopeing for an open respectfull dialog on the subject. Hopefully there will be more topics in the future that can further promote discution on current hot/controversial subjusct. Great comments by all this has been one of the better threads i've been involved in and spyder just so you know i'm not in the army you don't have to call me sir.

Hey Steeve!
Good to see you posting more often again. Now we've got to get our friend in the pink tutu to start posting again. Where are ya, Frank? (Remember that? Ha! Ha!)

I've been somewhat sidetracked from my monitors with a particular snake breeding project so I haven't been checking out other monitor forums, as well as this one, as much as I used to.

Your colorful Savs are the first that I can recall seeing. Maybe you've stumbled upon a gold mine in the form of an import source. I wish you well with them!

I can only recall seeing light-colored imported hatchlings posted by some people and like SHvar said, most of them, if not all, have eventually turned to normal colors. But I see that you've said the colors of yours improve instead of reduce. That is good to hear and I look forward to watching their progress, and your progress with them.

You're not feeding those things rodents treated with radiation, are you? Ha! Ha!

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Yes I remember FR’s tutu haha!

But now that you embarrassed him again I dough he will post lol.

As for my exanthematicus, well the first pair that died where 30in TL, that’s full grown adult by wild standards. They showed twice the orange my younger specimen (photo) is showing.

Like you I have never seen such colors on any exanthematicus before, and iv seen just as many as Bill Love, Ben and many importers.

I have enough experience to know I have something nice on my hands, lets see how things develop with them.

Cheers!

You know whats funny, I just had my ass chewed out for asking questions about the sucessful breeding that my friend just had with his and my Savs, and here is a huge list of replies from people who have done it and not for the money! Apparently there are too many people on here who look at the bottom line instead of the passion for the animals and the hobby. And whats funny is some of the repliers on here are the ones giving me crap! What is the double standard??? Thanks guys for showing me that a few people do still care.