Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been working with boids and colubrids, naughty and nice, since I was about 11. So, that would make just about 7 years experience for me. I am not looking at going out and buying a hot, but I wondering, when I am going to be looking for one possibly in the future, what would make a good starter snake.

like I said, I'm not going to go out and look for one at an expo the second I get a reply, because I am not looking for one now. But I would like to know what you guys are thinking.

Helena, while a bite from a copperhead is by no means painless, they are quite often recommended as a good starter snake because they're far less likely to kill you than say, a monocled cobra or mamba, for instance. I'd also strongly suggest working with a mentor to get you started. While they're not always easy to find, they're far and away a much better alternative than just jumping in with both feet solo and getting bitten due to a mistake. Hope this helps.

Bill Huseth
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Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

Thank you so much for the advice. i was worried I was just going to get butchered for this post. And just to make sure that no one does think I'm just jumping into it, I'm not. I am asking for the future.

I have always been attracted to the copperhead looks. They are unbelievable. I have also heard about smaller toxicity levels in some of the green tree vipers. It that true?

And I will see if i can find a venomous keeper in my area at some point, though, I am not guaranteeing I will find one. I do think that is a very good idea, though.

Any other suggestions?

I don't think you'll get fried, but you will probably get a lot of opinions...

Mine is a stronger version of Bill's. Try very hard to find a mentor. If you can spend some serious time working with a mentor, you'll be way more qualified than you will after owning your first TEN hots on you're own, and you'll have a good idea of what hot's you're comfortable with BEFORE you get one.

If you have to go with plan B, keep in mind that most major hospitals in the U.S. are probably prepared to treat a copperhead bite. Most don't have anyone who has a clue about Asian vipers, let alone antivenom on hand.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

But, copperheads aren't Asian Vipers. Or am i that crazy.

"I have also heard about smaller toxicity levels in some of the green tree vipers. It that true?"

I took this to mean that you were also considering these, and when most people mention "green tree vipers", they are referring to Asian tree vipers. Maybe you meant South American?

I was pointing out one advantage of going with U.S. snakes over exotics.

Of course, I'm also assuming that you are in the U.S., but we all know what happens when you assume...
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

You are getting some excellent advice here. I'll just add that in my opinion, no venomous snake should be looked at as a "beginner hot" - any venomous snake has the capability of inflicting a life threatening or deadly bite. There was even a recent fatality from a copperhead and their bites are some of the worst cases I have ever seen....but they are typically considered to be a good venomous snake to start off with and I tend to agree.

I would recommend sticking with a North American native venomous such as a copperhead, cottonmouth, or a smaller species of rattlesnake like a pigmy, western massasauga, rock rattler or something along those lines. Most hospitals have access to CroFab but you'll incur a major hospital bill so keep that in mind.

Finding a mentor will be your best asset.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>I have been working with boids and colubrids, naughty and nice, since I was about 11. So, that would make just about 7 years experience for me. I am not looking at going out and buying a hot, but I wondering, when I am going to be looking for one possibly in the future, what would make a good starter snake.
>>
>> like I said, I'm not going to go out and look for one at an expo the second I get a reply, because I am not looking for one now. But I would like to know what you guys are thinking.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

You guys are giving me some awesome information. i really appreciate all f this.

The thoughts on some of the native animals is a good idea, and i never though about the hospitals here not having different antivenoms like that.

Any other opinions are still appreciated.

I went with a massasauga for my first hot. I thought he was ideal. He was not jumpy or overly aggressive. He rode a hook very well. He was an excellent feeder and didn't have problems shedding. I kept broadbanded copperheads and dusky pygmy rattlers latter and they were similiar but a little more nervous. A mentor is a very good idea. I wish I would have gone that way. Have fun and be safe.
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The Voices have won!

jeff pfeifer

Rob:

A recent copperhead fatality? Do you know any details about this? I know that bites from this snake are sometimes similar to the bites of their close cousin, cottonmouths as in BACTERIA? Was mortality due to allergy, infection, or directly from venom? Forgive my morbidity but like Dr. Frye I've always been interested in this subject..

Sincerely,
Matthew

Rob,
I too, would like to know about this copperhead fatality.
Please post details!
Thanks,
Randal

I'll find the sighting - have it somewhere. Here's another one from 2006:

http://www.texas-venomous.com/laticinctus.html

>>Rob,
>>I too, would like to know about this copperhead fatality.
>>Please post details!
>>Thanks,
>>Randal
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I remember that one well. It was Jim Best, he was an officer of the Madisonville Police Dept. Not the Police Chief.

If I recall, (I'll have to look it up), the autopsy said his death was not a direct result of the Copperhead bite, as his health was severly compromised by diabetes. However, he went into shock and didn't recover.
The bite obviously didn't help!

I heard the same thing. Still looking for this other fatality - maybe my brain isn't clicking on all cylinders and this is the same story/incident. Will keep checking.

>>I remember that one well. It was Jim Best, he was an officer of the Madisonville Police Dept. Not the Police Chief.
>>
>>If I recall, (I'll have to look it up), the autopsy said his death was not a direct result of the Copperhead bite, as his health was severly compromised by diabetes. However, he went into shock and didn't recover.
>>The bite obviously didn't help!
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I remember of one reported in the last few years, but I was skeptical as to whether it was really the case.

If I remember correctly, it was either in Alabama or Mississippi and a swimmer was bitten by a snake and died, and the bite was attributed to a copperhead. However, the snake was identified by the bite victim and/or the people immediately around and wasn't verified otherwise. Because of this I'm highly skeptical and won't myself consider this a death from a copperhead bite.

I'm also interested in some documentation of how copperhead bites are among some of the worst you've seen.

Very simple: from pictures I've seen and people I have spoken to - the amount of tissue damage from the bite of these snakes was pretty impressive for something that most of us consider a "good beginner hot".

>>I remember of one reported in the last few years, but I was skeptical as to whether it was really the case.
>>
>>If I remember correctly, it was either in Alabama or Mississippi and a swimmer was bitten by a snake and died, and the bite was attributed to a copperhead. However, the snake was identified by the bite victim and/or the people immediately around and wasn't verified otherwise. Because of this I'm highly skeptical and won't myself consider this a death from a copperhead bite.
>>
>>I'm also interested in some documentation of how copperhead bites are among some of the worst you've seen.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

No one is saying that a bite from any venomous reptile is a bad thing... however, the problem I had was with:

There was even a recent fatality from a copperhead and their bites are some of the worst cases I have ever seen....

I would like to see some copperhead bite photos that are "some of the worst cases I have ever seen" as I've never seen a copperhead bite that even comes close to say a bad Bothrops bite. Nor have I seen reliable evidence of copperhead envenomation being the sole cause of death of an individual when the individual sought medical attention in a timely manner. So either A) There are some much worse copperhead bites out there than I could have ever imagined B) You have no evidence and are making things up or C) You haven't seen a lot of "bad" bites. Whatever it is I'd like to see evidence in one way or the other.

first line should read "isn't a bad thing"

Nice tone...sheesh. It sounds like you haven't seen too many clinical photos of copperhead bites. I've got some pretty gruesome pics but not able to share them on line. And whose comparing a Bothrops to a Copperhead?...I've seen both and it really depends on where the bite takes place - you know that right? No need for further comments as this one is getting drawn out a bit.

>>No one is saying that a bite from any venomous reptile is a bad thing... however, the problem I had was with:
>>
>>There was even a recent fatality from a copperhead and their bites are some of the worst cases I have ever seen....
>>
>>I would like to see some copperhead bite photos that are "some of the worst cases I have ever seen" as I've never seen a copperhead bite that even comes close to say a bad Bothrops bite. Nor have I seen reliable evidence of copperhead envenomation being the sole cause of death of an individual when the individual sought medical attention in a timely manner. So either A) There are some much worse copperhead bites out there than I could have ever imagined B) You have no evidence and are making things up or C) You haven't seen a lot of "bad" bites. Whatever it is I'd like to see evidence in one way or the other.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

If you are worried about a copperhead bite being dangerous you need to get out of hots altogether!

facts state the truth about the copper.
not a couple guys with a few bad [to them] bites.
all bites hurt not only the copperhead most others are MUCH WORSE~!
lets spread some stories of the bothrops pigmy!
that deadly pigmy snake!
some rumous place it next to the inland Taipan
lol have fun

b

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Bud

Read Tom's account....please tell me you don't keep hots!!

>>If you are worried about a copperhead bite being dangerous you need to get out of hots altogether!
>>
>>facts state the truth about the copper.
>> not a couple guys with a few bad [to them] bites.
>> all bites hurt not only the copperhead most others are MUCH WORSE~!
>>lets spread some stories of the bothrops pigmy!
>> that deadly pigmy snake!
>> some rumous place it next to the inland Taipan
>>lol have fun
>>
>>b
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Bud
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I think the point is when talking about "first hots" and the danger involved is , Most if not all copperhead bites are not life threatening and can be treated symptomatically many do not require antivenom.

That doesn't mean you can be careless when working with them. A typical bite is going to be a bad experience but as far as North American species go copperheads are very low on the most dangerous list. Worst case scenarios are just that. They have to be considered but also kept in perspective.

What hasn't been mentioned is that their are different types of copperheads. Is a bite from a Trans Pecos the same as bite from a Northern ? I think the copperheads are most often thought of are the Northern / Southern types and most recorded bites are from these.

To answer the original question a Southern copperhead is as good a choice as any in terms of North American species. Popes, white lip type vipers are good also . I would avoid any of the larger rattlesnakes with a special mention to western diamondbacks / A VERY BAD CHOICE !

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Ernie:

Western subspecies generally are more potent, which would explain why the serious bites were Osage & Broad-bands. I do not know what a Trans-pecos is capable of, but I'd be very careful with one.

Sincerely,
Matthew

Thank you Matthew. I think it's relevant to point these types of differences out. This question comes up from time to time and inevitably the generic "copperhead" answer is given.

My first venomous snake was a Northern Copperhead. I caught it fishing when I was maybe nine or ten years old . A fourth grader. I brought it home in a bucket and kept it in a ten gallon aquarium the kind with a slate bottom and a lid I made myself. It would never eat for me. Then one day I gave it a frog and it did great from then on. A few years later I caught a baby Timber rattlesnake I remember watching it shed and going from a button to a rattle. It was the greatest. Not long after that I met a guy named Hank Molt and things changed............ they really changed. Ernie Eison

Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Hank Molt....has anyone heard from him lately? Seems like Global has fallen off the radar. I've only had one dealing with Hank and wasn't sure if he got himself in trouble or just laying low.

>>Thank you Matthew. I think it's relevant to point these types of differences out. This question comes up from time to time and inevitably the generic "copperhead" answer is given.
>>
>>
>> My first venomous snake was a Northern Copperhead. I caught it fishing when I was maybe nine or ten years old . A fourth grader. I brought it home in a bucket and kept it in a ten gallon aquarium the kind with a slate bottom and a lid I made myself. It would never eat for me. Then one day I gave it a frog and it did great from then on. A few years later I caught a baby Timber rattlesnake I remember watching it shed and going from a button to a rattle. It was the greatest. Not long after that I met a guy named Hank Molt and things changed............ they really changed. Ernie Eison
>>
>>Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Hank has always been a guy that appears then disappears. He was at this past Expo. People can say what they want but my Hank Molt story is.

I spent endless hours at his shop not the one most people remember from the 80's I went there a lot also but the one he had back around 71 across from the train station. He had all kinds of very rare reptiles. Always top notch animals . He pushed the idea that whatever you were looking for you should always strive to get the best. Hank was the first guy who really catered to private collectors. Hank put out colorful descriptive price list the kind other dealers would try to mimic. This was lot different and far more exciting then what the other guys were doing.

Keep in mind the late 60's early seventies was a different world. I spent hours and hours bothering Hank and Hugh Kelly his partner both guys were great to me. It was an amazing learning experience.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.

Those were indeed the golden days of herps - everything was so magical back then. Folks today have no idea how good they have it. The animal I got from Hank was top notch - it took a little longer than I had hoped but he alwasy kept in touch to give me updates. I'll be curious to see what he has.

>>Hank has always been a guy that appears then disappears. He was at this past Expo. People can say what they want but my Hank Molt story is.
>>
>>I spent endless hours at his shop not the one most people remember from the 80's I went there a lot also but the one he had back around 71 across from the train station. He had all kinds of very rare reptiles. Always top notch animals . He pushed the idea that whatever you were looking for you should always strive to get the best. Hank was the first guy who really catered to private collectors. Hank put out colorful descriptive price list the kind other dealers would try to mimic. This was lot different and far more exciting then what the other guys were doing.
>>
>>Keep in mind the late 60's early seventies was a different world. I spent hours and hours bothering Hank and Hugh Kelly his partner both guys were great to me. It was an amazing learning experience.
>>
>>Ernie Eison
>>Westwood Acres Reptile Farm Inc.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Your welcome. Yeah, too often we forget populations have differing venoms. I'd rather get it by a northern Timber Rattler than a Canebreak any day!
Hmn, I'm considering catching a copperhead this spring or summer as my first Viper, previos experience has been rear-fanged.
I take them seriously, too BTW.

Matthew

At our local hospital they don’t even give anti venom for copper head or cotton mouth bites , they have found that you can treat the symptoms better that the allergic reaction most people have to the horse blood in the anti venoms . David

I'm hear to tell you a Copperhead can inflict a horrible damaging bite. I know firsthand because many years ago I was bitten thru a bag by an Osage Copperhead on my finger and it damn near rotted off. Even to this day there is only a thin layer of skin covering the bone with NO muscle tissue on one side. Additionally I have NO feeling at all in the vicinity of the bite. Having said this I've seen much worse bites but Copperheads can and will spoil a perfectly good week or two of your life. By the way only one fang envenomated me and I can only guess what a bite with both fangs would do to you. I hope I never find out......TC

Ok, guys lets repeat what we should ALL KNOW:

No Venemous bite is a minor thing to be blown off like a bee sting. And besides venom in moccasin bites ( both CMs & CH's) there are lots of unfriendly bacteria than can ruin more than a day of your life.
A. contortrix has to be respected as if it were a Mojave rattler.
BTW, western races are also more toxic than the eastern ones. A fact I need to remember when I try to get some better pics this year.
Take care!

Matthew

I was fortunate enough to work with Dr. Henry Fitch in the late 1970's at the University of Kansas for a short time with his later copperhead studies. I was living near a den site in western Johnson County, Kansas at the time, and was conducting my own mark and recapture study for a paper, and also out of personal interest. I had handled, scale clipped, and weighed copperheads hundreds of times, but it only takes one mistake. One spring morning I was capturing a yearling Osage copperhead that I didn't have a good grip on and it was able to turn and nail me on the finger with a single fang. I was able to get back to the house in short order where my girlfriend drove me to the hospital. Initially it felt like a bad bee sting and there was a loud ringing in the ears. By the time we made the hospital my vision was in an almost complete white out and I was close to passing out walking into the hospital. My blood pressure was measured at 60 over 30. Over the next few hours I had extreme nausea and my hand and forearm up to the elbow almost doubled in size from the swelling. The staff wanted to administer antivenin but I refused knowing that the possibility of fatality was extremely low, and knew the old horse serum could have been an issue as well. The swelling stopped after about half a day and I felt much better that night and told them I was going home. Although they were reluctant to release me, they did allow it. Recovery went well with very minimal tissue damage, but the thing I most remember was the pain during the healing process. For several weeks, the finger that had been hit felt like it had just been smashed with a hammer every minute of the day, 24 hours a day. I did feel fortunate however, that I didn't lose the finger.

I know copperhead venom toxicity is low on the scale, but I have read, and definitely believe after my experience, that large adult copperheads could, and have, delivered fatal bites to young children, and very old individuals. If I remember correctly, Minton listed the fatality rate at 1% or 2%. Additionally, individuals with venom allergies would definitely be at risk, and some of the reported fatalities could be attributable to this.

Kelly

I lost a finger to a pictigaster in 06 I have the progression photos it was bad.I can speak of experence I have had a few bites over the last 30 years.It was by no means as bad as a four foot atrox or a three foot viridis but it cost me over 50,000 bucks a helocopter ride and two weeks in the hospital .Now the atrox bite put me in a coma and the viridis bite cardiac arrest.Not to mention the faciotomy scars.No north american hot has what I would call a mild bite.
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http://www.simply-sober.com/him.html

http://simply-sober.com/blog1/

I was bitten in 1972 and antivenom was given and I still had terrible necrosis, swelling to my shoulder, and my entire side of the bitten finger turned black. Later I had those awful blood hematomas on the bite area. Eventually it rotted so you could see the bone in my finger. The continual pain is indescribable for some days after the bite. The snake that bit me with only one fang was barely 2' long, not a large one at all. In my life after handling many thousands of venomous snakes I've only suffered two bites, both thru bags, and both freak accidents. At my businesses over the last 35 years plus I only had one bite because of strict protocal with husbandry and maintenance. One of my managers got tagged by an Atractaspis bibroni by disregarding rules and lost his right index finger as a result. That bite made my Copperhead bite look like a bee sting. Needless to say I got serious serum sickness from the antivenom to boot. To make a long story short I love venomous snakes and keep a few Crotalids myself and not just for sale but be careful. ANY VENOMOUS BITE IS A LOT WORSE THAN MOST PEOPLE THINK. One has to be bitten to understand. Having said that venomous snakes are very interesting and fun to maintain, they're just not for everyone...thanks

That wasn't the one shown on Discovery awhile back? No, that was a thumb. But Stilleto bites are so bloody rare, I thought for a minute it might be.
Not an animal to take lightly!

Matthew

No this bite occurred in the 1990's but it was horrendous, both the necrotic action and the pain. David was a hurting puppy from the Atractaspis and the swelling was unreal. I believe he lost his finger due to the swelling and no fasciatomy was PERFORMED.....TC

Well, you remeber when O'shea got tagged by one? No wonder he was grumpy. Apparently the pain is off the charts. Nastly little things that can not be safely handled except by mechanical means. That guy on discovery toughed in out about 36 hours before he went to the ER. Personally, I'd rather a Copperhead if I had to get tagged, Stilleto's have a horrible bite. Worse than the necrosis though, was how you have relapses of the pain without warning.
Why has no anti-venom been produced for these I wonder, too hard to milk???

Matthew

I'll answer this for Tom, while he's not here (hope you don't mind Tom)
Stilletto's are almost impossible to milk, because of their defense mechanism (ability to "slide" their fangs out of a closed mouth, and jerk backwards, thus envenonming) also, probably the biggest reason Samir doens't produce an antivenin for them is, there's not a demand for it and bites are rare.

I remember all very well when Dave got bit, and it was NASTY!
Nothing against Dave, but...Dave didn't follow Tom's procedures for handling venomous snakes while in the "hot room" at T.C.R.E.

Randal

Yeah, pretty much what I was thinking. Just too darn dangerous! Besides, only herpers seem at risk, & not many even know about the "mole vipers"..
That guy on Discovery went to Loma Linda I think. I know Dr. Bush was discussing the case on it. Pretty much digested his thumb. They rebuilt it from a graft, but like he said, the waves of pain would recur randomly, fully as bad as the real bite.

Sincerely,
Matthew

More likely a Cottonmouth, I'd think..
The one Texas mentioned reminds me of the guy on Venom ER a few years ago, who died from complications related to a rattler bite. I think he had high blood pressure & between that & the venom effects had a stroke or cerebral hemohrage.. (sic)

Matthew

A Broad-Band then? I could be in trouble out here, sicnifigant gene flow between contortrix & laticincus!

Matthew

See the problem for me is this, where I live there are few to no people qualified to be a venomous mentor. There are some about an hour away but I doubt they have the time to devote to that. I've been keeping snakes for over 13 years now and really want to get into hots in the near future. suggestions?

All of the above are excellent advice. I particularly like the way each reply punctuates and/or adds to the other, making what I feel is a great combination. I agree wholeheartedly with what's been said.

The only thing that I'd like to mention is that I feel it's important that your first venomous snake is a species that you will enjoy keeping or it will pretty much be in vain. I don't think you'll learn what you need to by keeping a species that does not appeal to you. I would, however, try hard to find something native to North America, if that's where you live.

Best wishes!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I am in Wisconsin, so the only true venomous snakes we have up here are the Timbers and the Massasauga. I really do think the copperheads are gorgeous and have always been my favorite north american viper.

>>I am in Wisconsin, so the only true venomous snakes we have up here are the Timbers and the Massasauga. I really do think the copperheads are gorgeous and have always been my favorite north american viper.

Please check your local laws carefully as well. Many areas in WI do have laws against ownership of venomous snakes.
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Cindy
PHFaust

Email Cindy

Land of the Outcasts!

I pretty much agree with what I've been reading so far.
I say, stick to North American hots that can be treated with crofab- and stay away from the really big species (wdb and edb) until you have more experience. Stay away from the ones that are known for higher toxicity or nervousness- (mojave greens, for example). I would think coppers, rock rattlers, and the like would be a good starting point- at least until you are more confident in your practices.
One big thing to consider too is, do you have the proper place to keep them- locked and sealed away from others in your household/neighborhood ?

As for mentors- I still just dont know about this idea.Its great to see how others keep their animals, but you either have the common sence to keep your body away from the snake or you dont. I have friends that succesfully have kept hots for many years- and all I will say is, they do things their way, and I do things my way- and I will not do things their way. Hey, if their methods work for them- fine. But you wont see me doing it. You need to be able to know whats safe for you and whats not- or you shouldnt keep hots.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks again for the awesome input. You guys are so much of a help to me.

I agree with everyone about starting with a North American species for obvious anti venom reasons. Stay away from big rattlers like eastern or western diamondbacks but you can start with a pygmy rattler or a red diamondback, which is pretty cool looking snake in my opinion.

If you have to start with an exotic snake, you can get a small specimen from the genus Vipera. V.albizona could be a good choice. Even though they have strong hemotoxic venom, they are USUALLY calm snakes and easily manageable with the right size hook. I just love Turkish snakes, they never caused problems for me.

Stay away from species that require high humidity. You would not want to peel of shed skin from a venomous snake until you get quite confident. And get a baby if you can so that your skills and your experience can grow with the snake.

Finally, stay away from elapids. My first hot was a monocled cobra and during the 4 years I kept him, his motivation for living was to kill me. I have kept some calm elapids but mostly they are evil. I still love them though .
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Finally, stay away from elapids. My first hot was a monocled cobra and during the 4 years I kept him, his motivation for living was to kill me. I have kept some calm elapids but mostly they are evil. I still love them though .

and that is what i love about cobras. have not had too many asiatic naja try to kill but african oh yeah.

on the mentoring thing i am a firm beleaver in this. i was spoiled i had a choice of 4 or 5 people who wanted to teach me and i chose one whose style was close to what i like. the thing is you need a starting point and while you may not agree with somethings your mentor does it works for him, so it can't be all that bad.

i am in texas and not sure if its just the locality of copperhead i am dealling with or what, but all the ones i missed with did not hook well and were little demons. i would say go with a small rattler, prairie pygmy, rock. they tend to hook better in my experiance.
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1.1 coastals
1.0 brooks king
0.1 aru scrub

when working with your mentor trust your gut. if you see something he is doing and you don't think it will work for you trust that feeling.

also most important there is absolutly nothing asfar as husbandry goes that can't wait for your snake to be in a better mood. learn to read them and tell what mood they are in. and develop that gut feeling and trust it.
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1.1 coastals
1.0 brooks king
0.1 aru scrub

What about Boiga dendrophila dendrophila? I have no experience with them, but I was under the assumption that they were pretty good hots as far as temperment and toxicity.

I will agree with the copperhead front......many people, including me, have had great experiences with a copperhead as a first hot.
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2.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Copperhead
1.1.0 Eastern Box Tutles

Boiga has some rather potent venom.The delivery system is not as effective at viper's or elapids

I'm not suggesting a wet bite wouldn't be serious, but because of the ineffective delivery system and their tolerance of handling (compered to N. American Vipers) wouldn't they make an ideal first hot? .................or maybe I just lucked out and have only handled really mellow individuals.

After all, copperhead venom is certainly potent (just usually not fatal).
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2.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Copperhead
1.1.0 Eastern Box Tutles

B. dendrophila do possess a potent venom, but most bites are trivial in nature, and even the "serious" envenomations from them pale in comparison to a "mild" bite from a copperhead. In my opinion, they make good first "hots", provided the keeper actually treats them as a hot. You can make your mistakes with them, and probably not pay much of a consequence. I actually started with a sub-adult B. dendrophila about 5 years ago, and still have her. Great animals to maintain.
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Abhishek Prasad

Thanks for for explaining your view, that's kind of what I was trying to explain, but I guess most people aren't ready for their first venomous snake to be in the 8-9 ft range.
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2.4.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 California Kingsnake
0.1.0 Copperhead
1.1.0 Eastern Box Tutles

I commend you for having the sense and forsight to engage this discussion before you get a hot. I further commend all the experienced hot keepers for all the advice they've given.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Thank you. I can't tell you how worried i was when i posted this that everyone was just going to kill me. You guys have given me some just amazing information. I can't thank you enough.

I have a feeling that, in the future, meaning possibly a year or more, I would like to look into something like a copperhead, again, not for a loong long while. I will see if I can find a good mentor.

Nah, I asked the same question back in 1999, & got great advice on this forum.
Usually, only macho posturing invites harsh replies on this particular subject.

Matthew

I see that some believe the Osage copperhead to have a little stronger venom then other coppers??? I live in Missouri and they are plentiful. Many people get bit bailing hay and do not even go to the hospital. They do not usually use antivenin anyway for bites here. A copper bite can cause a finger loss but in most cases I've seen here they were not bad. Although an allergic reaction is a different story and can be life threatening. Of course if you treat any venemous with respect and pay attention to what you are doing you should be fine with a copper.

Western subspecis of A contortrix ( Copperheads) generally have more toxic venom. I don't know how much, but the guys up there, a couple had pretty bad bites from Osage coppers.
Just because it cannot kill me, doesn't mean that it doesn't still deserve respect!

Matthew

If you have to have a hot, and there is no reason to own a hot, then get a western hognose.