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I would like to describe the behaviour of a female croc I observed yesterday.

I am doing work in the monitor house, a small buiding where I keep several species. Because I did not want to upset the sensitive, high strung crocs, I had hung curtains over the sliding glass doors on two sides of their enclosure. This has given me a chance to obseverve them unseen ( I think).

I had brought two dishes of food to the pair. They are both young, about 5' long. The male was soaking himself in the water pan, and the female lay basking. I eased the pans onto a self and withdrew.

In a while I heard a metal pan being pounded and I peeked in through the curtains. There was the female, eating from the plate with the gusto and typical monitor passion. I went back to my work. Continuing to hear the clatering for a long time, I looked in again. There she was eating the male's dinner also. The male still lay in the water, only his tail hanging out.

After eating I thought she would bask as usual. She did go lie down under the lamps. I went back to my quiet work intending to feed the male later. Soon I heard a lot of physical activity noise coming from the enclosure. I peeked in. The female was restless and traveling all over the shelves and platforms. She looked out the window, she ran back and forth. She climbed the walls, the chains, the logs, the branches, repeatedly, looking all around. She would also pause in her ceaseless activity and take long looks over the side over the side toward the water pool, where the male was under water. I could see she was very upset, I would say she was frantic. Never once did she look towards me.

Finally she climbed up to the rafters and peered on top of the flourescent light fixture. She never goes up there. HE hangs out up there. Thats when I realized. She is looking for HIM.

I eased into their enclosure and removed the male from the water pan using welding gloves (still, I know, but he was cold) and placed him on the basking shelf. She did not bate off her perch but was quite still, watching.

I peaked in again. He had warmed and raised his head looking around. She came slowly down from above, dropping shelf to shelf like a shadow. She walked slowly up to him, placed her head on his shoulder and lay down. I left the monitor house I must confess with a lump in my throat. This was my observation.

Can we see some pics of them and the set up please?
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www.frogfreaks.com

I agree with you
We should always ask these photos, especially when large monitors are concerned.

Just from that post I can see a few problems already.
Help me help your monitors.

I would love to post some pictures and I am very grateful for any help. My new camera is still in the Christmas box and picture programs must be installed on my computer, so it will be a little bit before I post pictures.

But let me describe the setup for you. In one corner of the building I have made an 6'x8'x ?10'high enclosure out of heavy lumber and sliding glass insulated doors. There is 18" of damp cypress much and soil on the floor and I keep the humidity ~60% or more and a big bath pan which is a masonary mixing pan. There is a hide box on the floor which they can also lie on top off, a ramp to another shelf at window level, and they can go out this window into a similar sized pen on the porch of the building with ramps shelves and branches, and from there I can open a hatch and they can go into a 10'x20" pen outside with trees, foliage, dirt, pool, shade cloth privacy screen because they are shy animals, etc. But of course now it is too cold to be out. They are indoors for now. The temp is about 78F in the floor hidebox, 84F or so on the window shelf, and ranges up to 90-92F ambient temperatures on higher shelves. These shelves are big platforms that run the sides of the enclosure. On the window shelf is another hidebox and a water pan. There is another big shelf higher and to the side of that one, it is their basking shelf. 3 250W inrfared lamps inside a caged array hanging from chains so the animals cannot contact them heat the shelf below to ~120F, varies with areas on the shelf. From there is another ramp leads to a shelf above the window and from there a higher shelf go across the highest part of the eclosure. From the rafters hangs florescent shop light the male likes to lie upon. Up through the middle of this is part of an oak tree.

I feed them mostly rodents and San Diego zoo turkey diet once a week. I do not consider them pets and will never try to "tame" them. I know they are dangerous. I am in awe of them, by that I mean awe is a mixture of astonished by beauty and fear. I have made to cage divided by the porch arangement so I can go into the side they are not on to clean and maintain as if they were big cats. I can put their food in from the outside. Right now they cannot access the porch side of their enclosure, and I only go in there if I have to and do not muck around.

So I am very grateful for any and all advice you all can give on how to house them better and improve their husbandry. Oh. And I am not a kid. I am a grown woman and a critical care nurse. Yes I am a newbie but I did not just fall off the truck.

What do you all think? I will get pictures up as soon as I can. By the way those pictures of full on adult Crocs blow me away. WoW! Melissa

Hi Melissa,

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based upon your observation. Crocs can be compatible one minute and the next minute they're trying to tear each other apart. My pair can tolerate one another about 80% of the time. It's the 20% that you need to worry about.

Breeding season can be down right frightening. The male becomes extremely aggressive. My female typically suffers a few bites during this time. They must be watched closely. After eggs are laid the female becomes very aggressive towards the male.

Make sure that you have a second enclosure ready to go. It is unusual to have a pair that does not need to be seperated at some point.

Crocs are spectacular but challenging captives. If you have the space they're one of the most interesting monitors to keep. I really do not consider them to be social. I actually find them to be one of the more dificult species to keep in pairs full time. Watch out for those teeth and good luck!

n/p
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Are they like that even when raised together?
The picture showing the differnce in their snouts is very useful and your animals and photos are amasing. What is that green tank in the cage and those pipes on the ground?

Fear, rage, separation anxiety and seeking are the basic neurobiologicly based emotions that drive the behaviour of most animals including humans if you think about it. Those drives are stress causing but they lead to survival. The prefered state of any creature is of course the absence of these, leading to comfort/peace/health. I suppose best exibited in your pictures by fat reptiles basking on a branch. As a keeper I need to learn to arrange my housing and hubandry to limit or prevent fear, rage, anxiety in my creatures and the damage and stress that can result. The behavior I saw was a pretty clear example of separation anxiety and seeking in a sub adult.
I suspect the reptilian brain is not as simple as most people believe it to be.

Hi there!

"....The behavior I saw was a pretty clear example of separation anxiety and seeking in a sub adult.

I suspect the reptilian brain is not as simple as most people believe it to be."

Based on what all you've said I think your interpretation of the behavior is pretty accurate. Lizard brains are said to be more complex than snakes' and I've observed very similar behavior among them, too.

One thing you mentioned in your first post kinda concerns me a bit. It was about the male being in the water and you said he was cold. This could've been the reason he didn't come out to eat. You might want to consider trying to raise the water temperature with an aquarium heater, flood light, or something.

On another note:
I've sent you two replies on another question and then tried sending one by clicking your username link, but I don't think you're getting them. Once this thread is over I suggest starting a new thread with your other question. It's a legitimate question that needs more than just my opinion.

Take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

My job as a keeper is to reduce all stress to a minimum, at one time I kept 6 adult pairs of crocs and never witnessed more then a scratch.

I don’t consider it normal for captive monitors to hurt each other, thru the years iv lost many monitors due to aggression, I adjusted my husbandry until these aggressions stopped.

It’s a simple matter of avoiding stress, food stress, environmental stress.
Being consistent and regular with your husbandry is key.

These animals will not fight without a reason, breeding is not a reason for aggression with any monitors.

Croc monitors love ambient temperatures 80-90f with a drop at night 75-78f, the water must be kept in the 80s at all time, they evolved on a diet of bats therefore rodents are excellent for them. Feed every day.
Keep your basking at ground level, most keepers for some reason offer elevated basking, wrong basking should cover the nesting site always.
Don’t cover them, they are intelligent and curious beings, let them see.

jobi,
I agree that there should be some ground-level basking sites that will aid the substrate & ambient temps, but, can't an upper level basking site or two help reduce stress by offering one a chance to bask away from the other one?

Later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Crocs don’t bask much, they prefer ambient temps.

They are arboreal when young but less so when adults, in nature large crocs will flee and hide under roots or river banks, they don’t hesitate to use water as an escape. Young crocs on the other hand will climb the nearest larger tree in every cases.

Elevate basking for adult crocs is a waste of energy, using a larger basking at ground level will not stop your monitors from perching up, it will only provide a better use of energy.

Now hers a scenario I see to often, a bank of floods on a single perch, it’s a no brainier that monitors will compete for that spot.

Same with food if its offered sporadically, but if your consistent they learn the routine and don’t go frantic at every feedings.

Most cases of aggressing is avoided with better feeding and a larger ground basking.

Where is FR when ya need him? Melissa, please post pics asap. Let the foremost varanid guy FR take this one up, he is a genius after all. Cheers.

Also, not true in my opinion.

I have a radiant heat system in the ground. Within 10 minutes you're sweating bullets in my enclosure. the ambient temps is between 80F and 90F most of the time with high humidity. The basking sights are between 110F and 140F.

I have ground level basking, mid level basking, and high level basking. I also have a large tree in the enclosure. They spend a tremendous time up high. Both the ground level and high level basking areas have similar temps.

Both the adult crocs and adult lacies, which are very similar, are extremely arboreal if conditions allow it. If it's not an option in your enclosure they will obviously spend more time on the ground

Jobi wrote: "they evolved on a diet of bats"

Jobi also wrote: "They are arboreal when young but less so when adults, in nature large crocs will flee and hide under roots or river banks"

If adults spend their time on the ground and rarely climb trees, how do you they feed on the bats which you claim they are evolved for? Out of curiosity, where have you obtained this (contradicting) information on its natural history?

when I say less so dont mean never, it simply means they feel confertable on the ground.

How much natural history is really understood when it comes to Croc monitors ? The jest of what Jobi is saying is very plausible. The jaw design in croc monitors is different then the standard varanus . The teeth are long and sharp designed to catch things like birds and bats. Bats roost in large colony's and are primarily nocturnal, the monitors are primarily diurnal. It makes sense that an animal like a croc monitor could develop some extra skills to take advantage of a food source such as a hundred thousand sleeping bats. In many monitor species the young are far more arboreal then the adults this may also be true in crocs .

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile farm Inc.

It’s plausible they may feed on bats daytime, however I think they catch them at night. Croc monitors have a peculiar habit to turn and bite if you touch them while sleeping, they do so with lightening speed and eyes closed.
No other varanids iv studied showed this behaviour, its not a defence mechanism, more of a feeding adaptation speciality.

I would touch any sleeping croc with a rat, the rat would be grabbed instantly and held motionless till morning while the monitor slept.
Of course if the rat was to large and posed a threat, the monitor would release it and recapture properly.

Only rudicolis have behaved this way at times.

With the sonar of bats I doubt if they would touch them, but they might. It is likely that Crocs would make their way to a known bat outfly, such as a hollow tree or cave where bats roost. Many predators pick off bats and gorge that way.

Are Fruit Bats found in their range? Could a big Croc kill and eat a flying fox? The Fruit Bats roost in trees.

I don’t know much about bats, all the information I have on wild crocs come from my indo friend, he traps most of Indonesian monitors.

His crew observed them catch bats, I studied their morphology, they have a unique skeleton, cranium, jaws and teeth’s designed for one type of prey, perhaps the most food specialist amongst varanids.

I believe this strategy is common to some insular boides also.

In my care crocs are compatible with jobiensis and prasinus witch I housed in the same pens.

I good pair never fight and don’t need to be separated, I feel it is cruel to do so as they suffer anxiety when separated.

Adults can swallow a medium rabbit, how big are flying fox?

They have flying foxes there and regular bats. Flying foxes eat fruit and don't use echolocation. Flying foxes have a body about the size of a jumbo rat. I think the ones in Papua / New Guinea have maybe a three foot wing span. The big ones come from Malaysia they have 6 foot wing spans. Besides flying away they really can't fight back. They would be really easy prey for a croc. All the scenarios make perfect sense.

I'm very good friends Denise R. Tomlinson. She's one of the country's leading Bat biologist. I could throw a croc monitor into one of her flight cages and test the theory but I think it might put a strain on our friendship.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

Iv known from deduction they are bat specialist for many years, though morphology seems to correlate this, proving it will require field work.

Studying tree monitor many years iv learned a lot more then what’s documented, for instance given proper habitat they only eat 4-5 times there body weight a year, don’t matter witch specie. Mammals in comparison eats about 50-60 times.

I did the maths and adjusted my husbandry accordingly, needles to say keepers way over feed them.

Croc are built for stealth and lightness, they have nothing in common with salvator and such heavy body monitors witch can store huge fat reserves.

The way peoples are keeping them is more like power feeding Burmese pythons, they should be thinking emerald tree boas.

Fruit bats make excellent pets. Very social.

Better then a dog . Lives longer and just as personable.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farms Inc.

My enclosure has 12' ceilings and is about 15' x 12' They have multiple levels of basking sights and many to choose from. I've put visual barriers between the sights. However, eventually they're both on the ground together.

I've learned with large monitors you can never assume that a disaster is not right around the corner with keeping them together. They are not social and do not crave attention.

Jobi,

I disagree with you for the most part. Breeding can be very stressful on monitors whether they be large or small. I see stress in my lacies and crocs during breeding which can be caused by male aggression. I see the same in dwarfs. Also, a female that has just laid eggs can be very aggressive towards the male.

A scratch may be caused by aggression or may be caused by mating. Who knows. With a croc it only takes on bite in the wrong place and it's curtains. As I said early, the majority of the time my crocs are fine, it's the small percentage of the time that's concerning.

You kept six together? Is it possible that all 6 were too stressed to show any signs of aggression? I don't care how much you tweak your husbandry but six crocs can not live comfortably in your typical enclosure. Mating doesn't convince me otherwise. Did they lay eggs for you? Were the eggs viable? I can't imagine that a female croc would lay viable eggs in an enclosure shared by so many others.

Good pairs dont fight.

What is a good pair?

Take 3.3 babies and set them up in pairs, will they grow to become good pairs? if they do you’re a very lucky keeper.

Take 3.3 and raise them together until a dominant pair forms, then take this pair and set them up, this is your best chance at a good pair.

Watch your remaining 2.2 and see if an other pair forms, then set this pair up, this pair may or may not be a good pair?

The remaining 1.1 have very little chances to do well as a pair, they have already been emotionally scared by domination.

This last pair is quit similar to pairing unknown imports, what happens when you set them up.

House a male and female in a cage, eventually one will be hurt, males will try to mate an unreceptive female and she may be defensive to the point of killing him. This to me is not a pair at all.

Iv sold about 15 good pairs, pairs formed with dominant animals that bonded together from groups.

I sold them to serious well intended keepers, from zoo’s to private, none have ever been produced, none have ever contacted me for guidance, furthermore I know of none still alive.

This is only 15 examples of 1000s more deceptions of my herpetoculture days, the animals have never failed me, only the keepers did.
Eventually out of love we stop working with such animals.

No doubt that monitor intelligence has been underrated. The crocs are incredibly intelligent. It's actually a bit scary at times. That's why I like them so much. The lacies are also incredibly intelligent.

Intelligence and social do not always go hand in hand. These animals do not seek out one another in the wild. You can't compare a mammal with a reptile. Social needs amongst species are very different.

It is very possile that two young crocs raised together will have fewer compatibilty issues. Just to be safe, have a back up enclosure available.

Please keep posting your observations. It's very interesting to hear the experience of others.

I do have a backup enclosure, as I said. But it was for my safety not so much their's. Since Texas has 8 months a year of summer they have a huge area available to them. As of now in the indoor heated area they have another basking site on the ground, and a bath warm as any Roman senator's. I will feed the wingless "bats" every day from now on, enough to keep the wrinkles out of their sides. Usually I keep them without curtains. I didn't think they needed to see me struggling in with 12 foot beams and 6 foot sliding glass doors for the new Water monitor enclosure. I'm using deck screws not hammering nails and using electric saw remotely to spare them any stress. After that, off go the curtains. They are the most curious and alert monitors I have ever seen, especially the female. I have never seen them compete or fight over anything so far. I did see, and I know what it was, separation anxiety and it's resolution. This young pair has been kept together since importation 7 or 8 months ago. Because they are so alert to any human activity, it may be that other behaviors not usually seen might be observed when they do not know they are being observed. Perhaps a "monitor cam" would be the ticket.

It sounds like you're really enjoying them. They're in good hands and I wish you the best of luck! Please keep us posted on any observations. I enjoy comparing notes with people such as yourself and Jobi.

" Intelligence and social do not always go hand in hand. These animals do not seek out one another in the wild. You can't compare a mammal with a reptile. Social needs amongst species are very different. "

That's it. Emperor scorpions are some of the most primitive animals but they have a very well defined social structure. Interactively living and working together. By comparison Tigers are very intellectually advanced and like monitors are loners. The word social can imply more then just physical interaction it also imply's a wanting interaction a conscious caring about another individual .

Animals of all types can be conditioned . Some that normally wouldn't be together can be conditioned to be accepting of others . Acceptance is not the same thing as wanting interaction , friendship or a conscious caring about another individual . Conditioning can be achieved at different levels depending on the species and individual.

The conditioned response and the animals natural behavioral pattern are two different things. In captivity most keepers don't want natural animals these are hard to manage they want animals that are conditioned. Conditioned animals are easy. The thing to remember is that in even the most conditioned animals the natural animal still exist. Not keeping this is mind is how " accidents " happen.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm
Westwood Acres

Are you talking about tigers, the cats? Wild tigers have been discovered to be very social, unrealated groups have been found and photographed socializing and playing in creeks. Leopards and cougars I do not think are social, but everything is not known about them either.

Granted, from one observation of a certain behaviour one cannot draw conclusions. What if I quietly let the young male Croc out into the adjoining side with the glass covered and the female goes into frantic search mode again? What if I let her out and see what he does? I suspect that with such alert and intelligent animals as Salvatori it is necessary to observe them when they do not know they are being observed. My next project will be Monitor Cam.

"Social Behavior: Except for a mother and her cubs, tigers live and hunt alone. But that does not mean they are not social. Scent marks and visual signposts, such as scratch marks, allow tigers to track other tigers in the area, and even identify individuals. A female tiger knows the other females whose territories abut hers; in many cases, a neighbor may be her daughter. Females know their overlapping males (and vice versa) and probably know when a new male takes over. All tigers can identify passing strangers. So, solitary tigers actually have a rich social life; they just prefer to socialize from a distance."

Be careful jumping to any conclusions. Social is hard to define. One day a social croc monitor may kill its cage mate or send you to the ER for stitches.

These are not animals that seek out one anothers company.

This is basically in response to both John & Ernie.

Yes, "social" is hard to define. It has many meanings and implications. To me, its standard meaning is basically - "to live together by desire or need." Using that definition I agree that monitors, and probably most reptiles, in the wild, living naturally, are not social. However, as mentioned, I believe they do have certain types of social behaviors (ways to communicate & recognize each other).

"Intelligence and social do not always go hand in hand."

Monitors are indeed intelligent. Given the definition of "social" that I gave above I agree with that statement. I don't think monitors, in general, in captivity or in the wild, necessarily seek or desire interaction except during breeding season.

One thing that "inetlligence" signifies is a sophisticated brain. I don't think we know just how complex it is. It was mentioned that monitors can be conditioned to be social. With so many people keeping pairs or groups I have to agree.

Now it's time for me to attempt to tie all of that in to get to my point. Please bear with me.

With the complexity of a monitor's brain and their ability to be conditioned to live socially, is it not possible for these things to also bring them to express emotions?

I know that we silly humans can easily misinterpret actions/behaviors as the same type of emotions we might feel under the same circumstances. I am guilty of that myself. I am big on interpreting the behavior of my captives because I feel it's important to their survival and well-being. My captives all call me, "Dr. Doolittle." OK, I'm definitely joking there - actually, they call me, "Mr. Do-little," as if I could use to do more for them than I do.

With plenty of empty floor space, humid areas & basking sites, why do I occassionally find two of my Savs snuggled up in a non-essential area? (I know that the "non-essential area" may well be essential to them at that point in time, but hopefully you know what I mean.)

Now it's time for me to throw an orange into the apple pile:
For the longest time I believed that it was impossible for snakes to have or express emotions. Several years ago I witnessed something that changed my beliefs.

I placed a 3ft w/c female corn snake in a tank with a 3 1/2ft male w/c corn due to limited caging. They got along fine. Four months later I gave the female away, leaving the male alone again in it's tank. I'm here to tell you that the male was visibly bothered. For the next week or so he constantly displayed erratic, and even weird, behavior that I've never witnessed before with any reptile.

Here are a few pics taken within a day or two of the separtaion. And I assure you this snake was in excellent health, physically. I still have it today, 3 - 4 years after the fact.

He would stay like that for about an hour or so at a time, several times over the next week or so. There were other unusual behaviors as well. I will bet my last dollar that he was expressing some type of emotion. Prior to that incident nobody could've convinced it was possible. And I've been keeping, working with reptiles and various other animals for many, many years.

Thanks for the good discussion!

Catch ya'll later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

It is a good thing when working with animals (or otherwise) to keep an open mind.

And why have I found these two Crocs on several occassions to be side by side in the "arm around each other" position?

I've had an "open mind" for about 20 years. They will put their arm around another and the next day you'll find one of them with a large bite mark. Today, mine were basking right next to one another. Look at my pics above and you'll see them nose to nose. Just wait until they're mature and start cycling and breeding. Then let me know how social they are. Wait to you see how sweet the male is when the female is not receptive. Or, how sweet the female is to the male after she lays eggs.

The social discussion has been beat to death. Read through some of the other forums and you'll find some great information.

Jumping to any conclusions at this pont would be a mistake. You're dealing with animals that are not social but are spending time with each other due to the fact that they are juveniles and share an enclosure.

Social:

Breeding:

Not social!

See the healing bite marks:

"They will put their arm around another and the next day you'll find one of them with a large bite mark."

Sounds like me & my wife.

"Just wait until they're mature and start cycling and breeding. Then let me know how social they are... ...Wait to you see how sweet the male is when the female is not receptive."

Yep, sounds exactly like me & my wife. Does that mean that we're not social? Ha! Ha!

Nah, seriously, I may be wrong but I don't think anyone's saying that they're regular Don Juans. Because they may fight from time to time doesn't mean they're not, nor can be, socially conditioned. Aggression is a social behavior, one that is displayed by both social & nonsocial animals.

How do social animals establish hierarchy? Mostly by fighting or intimidation.

I may be wrong but I can't help but feel that you may be misniterpreting "social" as it's used in the original post. The title of this thread is: Croc monitor social behavior - not "Croc monitors are social creatures."

I do agree with your continuous warnings of not to think that because two monitors can live together and seemingly express emotions, or what have you, that they will be friendly to, or desire a relationship with, their keeper. Even though I've seen photos of people holding their adult crocs, the message should be that they are a force to reckon with and can easily inflict severe damage.

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hillbilly,

I think we're on the same page but our definition of social may be different. When I think of a social animal, I think of animals that seek out one another's company. In captivity I think of animals that seeks out a human's company. I have a dog and a macaw, the actively look for me and want to spend time with me. They are social by my defenition. As long as the crocs are fed, they could care less if I, or their cage mate fell off of the planet!

No doubt that these guys are more complex than we all realize. It's what makes them such interesting captives.

Sounds like you've been married as long as I have!

Exactly!

And I have NO desire nor any idea of trying to socialize with those Crocs. They are look only kind of creatures.

I do have one 5.5' albig that comes to me and follows me around the monitor house or pens. Its her choice not mine. I do not foist myself on monitors. The other day I crouched down and offered her my folded reading glasses. (No way my hand or finger, I do not trust any monitor). She crunched them and threw them. What Godzilla like behavior

Don't forget. You're the albigs source of food. It may be following you in hopes of a meal. It sounds as if it does not see you as a threat which is the ultimate goal when carng for these monsters. My lacies and crocs allow me to enter their enclosure without any fuss. The female croc and both lacies will follow me around while I'm cleaning their cages in hopes of a meal. Sometimes it can be a bit intimidating as the male lace trys to climb my leg!

Second sentence shoud read: Your albigs see you as a source of food.

Sorry, I haven't had any coffee yet!

I know Quah sees me as a source of food. But she will also come over when I come home from the hospital and smell all over my scrub pants as would a dog, then walk off. When food seeking, she will usually look up at me and place her front foot on my leg. I have many creatures of all kinds, birds, mammals, and most interaction with human is based upon dinner pan love.

Lets talk about the social animals. Your parrot, they are social. They live in flocks to survive, also they mate for life. Your dog is of course a pack animal and your family is now his pack. Parrots and puppies are raised by humans so they have transfered or widened their social bond and make good pets.

The hoofed animals are social. They live in herds to survive. Because of the socialness of horses we can tame and ride them. But they still need other horses. Without other horses they quickly start to exibit abnormal behaviors.

Socialness may be to some extent based on motherly care. That a young animal gets comfort, warmth and food from another imprints it on the mother and it will seek out that kind in the future. It continues to learn social behaviors specific to its kind from its parent or others.

What about the reptilians that get no care by their mother (except for crocodillians and they look pretty social to me but I have no experience). No they are not social animals in the classic sense, yet they do show social behaviors and establish hierarchys as HillBilly points out.

The problem is that in order to draw any conclusions about behavior we really need to observe them in the wild. In captivity we have pairs or groups penned up together who have no choice. Those who are injured or killed in fights cannot get away. This is very very sad as FR would say. How can we arrange their husbandry and housing to keep this to a minimum? Hide boxes all over the place that only hold one lizard? Close monitoring of their moods and behavior?

"The problem is that in order to draw any conclusions about behavior we really need to observe them in the wild. In captivity we have pairs or groups penned up together who have no choice. Those who are injured or killed in fights cannot get away. This is very very sad as FR would say. How can we arrange their husbandry and housing to keep this to a minimum? Hide boxes all over the place that only hold one lizard? Close monitoring of their moods and behavior?"

I understand what you're saying but we also have to keep in mind that no matter how hard we try, we cannot replicate nature so their behavior in the wild is going to be slightly different than in captivity because of the variances. I think you understand this, but just wanted to say it just in case and for the sake of the silent readers.

For the most part, I think he was just thinking of a different inerpretation of "social" than I was & neither one of us were sure what exactly you were thinking. John has fervently tried to get his crocs to be more social with each other, to continuously get along good, for quite some time. Wish I had a dollar for every cage/setup alteration he has made in the process.

The reason I say that is to encourage people to do what he has done - don't just assume that you have incompatible animals, but make sure that any problems are not the keeper's fault - be it setup, routines, or whatever. The same goes with solitary animals. Observe, interpret & explore.

Sorry for the late reply.

Take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Great pics. Wow.

You are saying just what I have been thinking,

Another good reason for "monitor cam ".

Did you se the article in National Geographic several years ago with the photo layout of 8 or 10 tigers cavorting on a river bank in a preserve in India?

" Are you talking about tigers, the cats?"

Yes the kind I used to live / work with.

Also Leopards, cougars , lions, wolfs , Croc monitors , king cobras , etc.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile Farm.

This is getting scary, I am starting to believe its genetic?
Working with big cats, crocodilians, cobras we must have a defective gene or something?

John, beautiful animals. The barn seems to be working for ya. How are the laces' doing? Cheers.

Lacies are doing great, thanks for asking. The new female is growing quickly and sould be ready soon. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Awesome. Good to hear of some more breeding =]