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and a couple parting shots prior to the beginning of brumation for the older and younger members of the clan.....

Cascade mountain kings, Siskiyou County (zonata zonata x multicincta -- natural intergrade) adult female -- the newest additions . . .

Juarez x Martir agalma

Hypo-E agalma final meal for a while.....

as is the same for this multicincta......

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

You sure do have some beautiful snakes, Jerry. I am rather jealous!
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Diego

SWCHR

Indeed! When I first started to somewhat specialize I had two forms in mind zonata and temporalis. Both show a lot of diversity but in the end coastals were among the snakes of my childhood so I went that way. I generally don't spend much time looking back but jerry's pics do make me think!

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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Tony, It looks like you have the East coast Handsomely represented!
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Hi Jerry, Beautiful kings, I found my first zonata in 1961 or 62 I believe. In the west fork of the San Gabrial river.

I have a silly question, what else do you expect from me. What makes you say, last meal for a while, for the neonates?

There is a real point I am trying to make and it really does not matter if you or others get it. But still, its a point.

When you say last meal, and I see a snake feeding on its own accord, I wonder what your talking about.

I get the feeling, you think you have control over your animals. Which is absolutely true. The reason is, they are in your cages and you have control over your cages.

What I question is, don't you think they have control over their lives? Naturally, they move to warmer and warmer places. They = individuals that have a need to stay warm. Such as, neonates and reproductive pairs. This part of the population moves to areas that allow the most choices for the longest period of time. You know, why rattlesnakes move to dens that face the sun, the entire year. Have you ever heard of a den on the shady side??????

I do not know where you live, but I have some feeling its in SoCal. Do you know that baby snakes in SoCal are active year around. In fact, I found a gophersnake crossing the road two days ago. Not just out, but crossing the road. Yea, we see this every month of the year. We is in Tucson, Az. and its been freezing every night of a while now. No offense, but we find snakes out and active all year long even at elevation, our study site is at 6500 ft. And snakes are coming out and basking and mating and hunting, all winter. Oh, except on the days that snow. They wait for the sun to come out.

Again, forgive me, I just wonder why folks think they have to control animals that know how to control themselves.

And yes, I do understand that beginers need to follow a recipe, but shouldn't advanced keepers actually learn what the animals actually do????? Your animals look so good, aren't you advanced?

Afterall, breeding is not a very high goal, we(us keepers) have been doing that for a very long time. I myself have bred colubrids since 1964 and that includes this species. And I was not alone.

Again, I am not saying this to challange you, or question your ability. I simply think there is so much more to these beautiful animals and so much more to learn about them.

You do know that the newest area of study with snakes is parental care. Yes, I know, science says reptiles do not do this. But thats science, it too keeps growing and learning more and more. From further investigation.

Yes, snakes do teach their young. For sure, not like mammals. In fact, thats why we have to study them, TO FIND OUT HOW they do. And to what extent?

Yes, I understand they have instinct(inherited knowledge) we also know they must also learn the area they are in and learn how to use its resources. Yes I know, Jeff S, thinks they inherit a GPS device and already know the lay of the land and its resources. Or just luck out.

The point is, there is so much more to learn. Cheers

"In fact, I found a gophersnake crossing the road two days ago. Not just out, but crossing the road. Yea, we see this every month of the year. We is in Tucson, Az. and its been freezing every night of a while now."

And I've seen water moccasins out and about every month of the year and "we is in" NE North Carolina. The thing is, seeing a moccasin out on a warm winter day is uncommon relative to warmer seasons when you can find them by the ton! Perhaps I assume too much but I bet the annual probability distribution of gophers crossing the road closely matches that of moccasins basking on a marsh bank. Winter sightings in both cases are anomalies.

The same would go for mountain animals. These animals NEED to find habitat that will extend their growing season in order to sustain their populations. Without these habitats the populations would not even exist, at least not as we know them. This is a sad truth made evident by widespread extirpations of timber rattlers on the east coast where infrequent den sites can be over hunted or destroyed.

Given this is the case, I question why anyone would use anomalies to model a breeding system? Don't get me wrong here I'm not saying what you do doesn't work I just wonder how you made that leap.

As I see it, most kings, regardless of limited activity during winter, are seasonal breeders. Some of what makes them effective seasonal breeders is "learned" behavior but much is instinctual. This is just me but I think the only way you can routinely make non seasonal breeders produce year round is to completely subvert factors that contribute to behaviors that are rooted in instinct. As an example most everyone I know who maintains his or her animals year round alters the photoperiod.

The same kind of thing goes with communal caging of kings. Yes it can be done but kings of various sizes can not be kept together successfully without subverting natural tendencies by feeding the living bejesus out of them which of course opens up another whole can of worms.

I'd also like to touch on is how success is being measured here. Having "bred the beans" out of them seems to be the standard but let's take a look at this. Heavily supported snakes kept year round in communal setting may produce more neonates per female per year but how many effective colonies can one keep in a 10' X 10' snake room? Compare this to the space efficiencies of rack systems and total production of neonates per room relative to all resource inputs and the margin diminishes. In either case mass of production as a measure of success seems to be pretty narcissistic.

Lastly, I'd like to take a look at the maintenance issues of year round communal keeping. First I'm going to look at the year round thing. Forgive me but I think that the expenditure of energy to provide such a wide range of temperatures year round is plain wasteful especially when we have ample opportunity to fully support our animals mostly through full utilization of seasonally availably ambient temperatures. Perhaps if breeding snakes were my bread and butter I would feel different but for most of us here it is a hobby. As for the communal aspect I question the hygiene of such arrangements as described. Fact is for every unit of food you put into such an arrangement you're going to have to somehow remove a proportional amount of waste. I don't care if you rely on crickets (who also poop) or bacteria to further break it down I just don't see this working for communal caging with deep soil substrates where animals are heavily supported (fed) unless you're willing to allow things to get pretty darn nasty between cleanings. I can buy the "tinker with it till you get it right" notion in most cases but here I'd like to see some specifics; just one example please! Instead of telling me how close minded I am or how faulty my thinking is please describe just one actual existing setup. What size cage, how deep and what type soil substrate is used, how many animals of what type, how much and how often are animals fed and at what frequency do you have to break the entire thing down. Oh and lastly what do you do with the immense amount of waste (fecal contaminated soils) if you don't live in the boondocks where you can just dump it?
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

The snakes appreciate the kind words -- they know they are beautiful regardless of any black crossovers. Zonata do tend to be vane.

But I still wanna see a photo of what you claim to do in captivity. My interest is brimming with anticipation.

I don't consider myself advanced, and i've only been breeding snakes for 16 years -- that means nothing except that i've seen a bit more and I've met some amazing (and not-so-amazing) people in that time. I've also bred some very cool snakes, and have had little field time, but it does not make me anything. I try and provide the very best captive conditions as possible, with some modifications thanks to several people over the years -- you included believe it or not Frank. But I want to see proof of what you are proposing in captivity.
And i really don't wanna get into semantics or paying the silly "disprove it" game -- I just want to see at least ONE photo of what you claim is possible in captivity. That's all. And it would save you alot of time just posting a pic than saying all the things you've said over and over. I GET IT -- I just want to see how it's done is all.

And I'm broadcasting to you from a balmy 40F New York City today -- but i'm originally from SoCal actually. SO, the dualities of extreme temperature gradients are something i can appreciate by default of personal long-term exposures, just not within the realm of keeping snakes in modest captive conditions. I'm ready for that photograph.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

The problem is a photograph does nothing, it will take lots of photographs showing many different "angles".

And why I sight, your not ready yet. Lets look at this is a civil manner. Your asking me to teach something, not really prove something. The truth is, proof is in all your cages. Many of the snakes many of you keep, came from me and my odd ball approach. In fact, many of the methods used here started with me and others in Tucson.

Back to teaching. In cases where there is theory(academics) And application. Its normally taught in a split approach, a class and a lab. In class you learn the theory, then in lab, you apply it. This is valid here.

Until you start to ask the right questions, there is no need for lab. As long as your asking for proof, you have not grasped an understanding of what I am saying. Once you show to me you understand what I am saying(in theory) we can then move on to application and/or results. As long as I am the one doing the "teaching" then I do get to set the rules.

Your task is to try and learn, or simply to understand. But to fight the teacher will get you no where. Of course, you do not have to apply anything or believe anything. No one is asking you to do that.

In fact the very key to understanding this subject and snakes, is based on our backward understanding. Trying asking what that is. Cheers

Lots of people on these forums have lots of experience and have successfully kept and bred many species that you may have "pioneered". Just because you do it one way doesn't mean it's the only correct way. There are lots of things in this world that have been perfected, why can't someone take your "ideas" and evolve them to be more effective? Being closed minded doesn't help you or anyone around you. Let's all learn a little from each other and enjoy the animals.

"Why can't we all just get along?" Rodney King

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Dennis McNamara
Crazy Fools Reptiles
Desnakemon@cox.net

Frank, I'm not looking to fight the teacher. You keep using words like "fight" and "hostile" -- hmmmm.

But classrooms and labs DO, from my recollection, have concrete teaching aids such as MAPS, and VIDEOS, and MODELS, and PICTURES.

So can we get a visual?
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

He is not going to post a pic.....Thus why he has no website or nothing online to look at...they are all his secrets...haha... think of the snales natural enviromnet....that i what his enclosures or cages will look like....I dont know for sure but from following what he has said and done...that is what I would expect.

Lets start with specifics maybe....What substrate work best for you?
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Scott
"The most powerful person never has to use it"

Well Frank, to say a photograph does nothing is a little bit of a stretch. If I went into a court room and presented my Crime Scene Evidence, (as I used to do every day), and did not show the jury photographs of homicide scenes or whatever the crime was----well lets just say there would be TONS of questions. Not only pertaining to the crime scene but if the crime really happened in the first place. When I used to go to the AUSA office (prosecutor) the first thing they wanted to see were my photos. So, yes, the photos would answer tons of questions.

How many here think a few pictures and brief discriptions of Franks setup would be instructive?
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Well, you know where I stand on that Tony. I am sure Frank knows his stuff and I cannot argue that I know more,because I do not. I have wanted to see the photos so I can copy his setup. Isn't immitation the best form of flattery?

I think you meant POLL..LOL..sorry Tony, I just couldn't resist..as for my answer..I could go either way..maybe it's my Bi Polar acting up..now I'm taking my marbles & heading for the gutter...waiting to see who joins in..LOL..take care.
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

VOODOO ECONOMICS . . . . . .

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

" think you meant POLL..LOL..sorry Tony, I just couldn't resist"

Ouch!
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Because if something can not be seen concretely then it's a moot point and nothing more than a theory. No need for further discussion. This whole idea is just rubbish with ranges from 50F through to 100F in the SAME enclosure. Maybe for a zoo or someone with LOTS of property with built-in caverns/hibernaculums/etc etc etc.

We DO offer brumation opportunities, albeit that the snakes do not have a CHOICE in the matter as to WHEN it will happen or WHERE it will happen -- I think THAT is what is ruffling Frank's feathers. But we can ONLY DO BUT JUST SO MUCH under captive conditions -- and AGAIN, it is "entirely" not possible unless there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt (learned that one from Law and Order...) that this range of choices can be provided in a modest captive arrangement. Again, comparing field observations/recordings against captive conditions are apples and oranges to a large degree.

Best case scenarios until further notice: varied substrates, stacks, climbing objects, humidity variants / thermoregulation variants within reasonable abilities on timers/regulators -- both from aerial as well as substrate modalities, shelter options, ambient temperature considerations, cooling cycles.....I could go on.....

So I have to return the question: what more do you want from us Frank? Because the only way to have this happen without a photo from you for enlightenment is to build a HUMAN TERRARIUM around herp habitats and keep our snakes there. I can't even muster up so much as a guffaw or a chuckle because what is being proposed without proof is unsubstantiated and not realistic.

The way we keep herps can be revolutionized completely as we know it just by a single photograph with a how-to breakdown...but I hear nothing more than a breeze with a cricket's echo. I, for one, am still anticipating more BECAUSE I want more for my herps, but i also have to be realistic as well.

"Bueller?"........"Bueller?"........
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Jerry you can create pretty wide gradients. Any of Frank's ideas individually are completely plausible and doable by the average hobbyist. What I doubt as being practical is all of the ideas together.

IMHO, Cages large enough to accommodate wide thermal gradient deep soil substrate reduced ventilation high humid environment (enough so that a water bowl isn't required) communal housing heavy support (feeding) = VERY NASTY LIVING CONDITIONS.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Indeed. And I reckon that's why people want to see photographs.

Tim

and I reckon that is why Frank doesn't want to post them
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

That was my point Senor Dongarra -- ALL of these elements together in one captive habitat. Did I miss something?

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Jerry

Why are you going to cool neonate snakes? Wouldn't you want them to grow?

Great looking zonata BTW. Thanks for the continued pics!

If they refuse to eat voluntarily, I would prefer to cool for some time instead of forcing the issue. I have some holdbacks and new acquisition babies that are certainly eating me out of house and home throughout the winter, but there are some that I would prefer to brumate instead of stressing them further and burning up body fat. So they don't ALL go into the cool, just the finicky ones that refuse every possible alternative to forcing pink heads/small mouse tails. Thank you for the kind words too....

Laguna pulchra

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Interesting.

With coastals most neonates will feed through the first and perhaps even the second winter. It isn't untill sexual maturity that they go into late summer shut down mode.

For my part I stress out by continued tease feeding through the first winter for fear that they may not have enough weight to make it through a standard brumation.

Finding the proper amount to tease feed is sometimes difficult. You can just keep at it and make them grow rapidly but then they may not switch to voluntary feeding on f/t becasue they aren't hungery! My solution is not perfect but since going the no lizards (not even to scent with) tease feeding mouse tail method I've yet to loose a single neonate to failure to feed. Off hand I can only remember one that took over nine months but this year I have four that are approaching that mark.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

While I do not have any zonata in my collection at this time,(That is changing very soon), I am however experienced with some very hard feeding milk and speckled kings. I did the force feeding and teasing for months and never was able to get them to feed on their own. I tried cooling them for four weeks and they ALL ate on their own within three weeks. So, in my amatuer opinion, cooling the little ones off is a VALUABLE tool. I think if I was to just let these snakes "decide" on their own they would have decided to be dead.

"I think if I was to just let these snakes "decide" on their own they would have decided to be dead."

I can just see this thread now....LMAO.......
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Oh, come on Jerry, I would never start anything! Just opinion my friend. Although others might think different huh?

"I think if I was to just let these snakes "decide" on their own they would have decided to be dead."

You just narrowed their available choices when keeping them in a very narrow set of conditions. Let me guess, deli cup at one temperature? Maybe shoebox with a 5 degree delta from front to back? And what about moisture? Was it bone dry when they may have wanted some localized humidity?

I'm no expert, but there likley wasn't much to choose from. So they were being unintentionally supported to refuse food. I did that too before. It is easy to do that. Tougher to provide a range of conditions, but doable even in a shoebox. One renown breeder got his montane, graybands and Cal king babies to feed all Winter on pinks by offering a choice of humidity and a range of temps from around 60-sh to 84. He used shoeboxes on heat tape in a cool room, and a cup of moss in one corner. That simple. In this case the hatchlings had some choices, and the breeder's success with getting the snakes to feed on pinks was very good. Actually, just place pinky in cage...
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Mark

Is it just me or do those advocating change here seem to assume the worst of others?

Mark what I first got out of your post was that Joe is completely inept and that if he would just institutes some very common solutions all his problems would just go away. Well a wintertime range of 60-sh to 84 in a shoebox isn't exactly uncommon or hard to accomplish nor is the concept of a humid hide for small tricolors anything near new to anyone here yet problem animals persist year after year.

Second, saying that Joe's animal was, " being unintentionally supported to refuse food" is a little flip don't you think? Do you really think your suggestions eliminate problem feeders? Quite simply it doesn't. Here are just a couple of reasons why some neonates refuse to feed:

#1 The proper food. Baby snakes can have pretty specific food requirements that they want or need to initiate a feeding response. It takes me about 4 -6 weeks of tease feeding to get a coastal onto f/t pinks. Their reluctance to take pinks has nothing to do with conditions because if I were to put a f/t ground skink in there with them you'd see a profound feeding response!

#2 A change in scenery. I can not tell you the number of times over the years that I've sent perfectly healthy well feeding snakes to a new keeper only to have them refuse feed at their new digs. The conditions can be identical to mine or even better than but they just refuse feed for a time. Solution: leave them be and if temps are such that you can allow them to hibernate. As a side benefit, many keepers have observed that such neonates come out of hibernation as vigorous feeders that can and often do surpass their over wintered counterparts in terms of growth.

We could go on and talk about individual temperament, lineage, lighting etc but the point is that if a snake isn't feeding failure to provide the most basic of conditions is not always the answer. Some reasons are about the snake not what the keeper does and in such cases letting them go down for the winter is a perfectly acceptable way to conserve energy until conditions change.

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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Thank you Tony. Some assume the worst and that is certainly not the case. As a matter of fact the kings were given to me by a breeder who could not get them to eat and this breeder is probably one of the brightest people I have met in the snake community.

Tony, the conditions don't change, it is the same setup, back to the same temps, humidity, etc. Neonate snakes that are brumated in this manner must be starving when brought back up! Also, how many meals is considered feeding on their own? How many people cut their eggs and pull a preemy out to raise because they can't wait? I'm not saying you do, but surely their are weaker snakes in a clutch that may or may not have survived in the wild. I think a lot of eggs get eaten before hatching, that makes more food available for the survivors. If we don't feed lizards and snakes and insects to our charges, we don't supply them with even more choices. There are so many variables here. I don't think the last poster was being flip, just asking some very important queations for all to hear. He knows the answers that works for him. I think if you are happy with what you do, go for it, but we should at least listen and think about other ways to do what we all do. If you don't agree, fine but let's not call b.s. on those things we aren't sure of, just because we haven't seen it. I have terrariums, shoeboxes, tupperwares, and a few other cage types as well as a free ranging snake in the adult room, Trans Pecos rat. They all do different things, but the T.P. rat does a lot of things you wouldn't believe. He can move to where he wants for whatever he wants. He uses the view, for both observation and thermoregulation. I know where to find him (or should I say he finds me) at supper time!

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Todd Hughes

I thought my post was great! Kidding.. Yes, it was a poor choice of words and assumptions, completely unecessary with no positive outcome. I agree with you completely.

Here is what I should have said:
I also know as you all do that hatchling kings/corns/etc are moisture-loss sensitive and will often refuse food when dehydrated. And that in the wild they spend much time being cooler than 80 deg, sometimes by force (weather) but alot of the time by choice. How much time I have no idea. Studies of Gila monsters - yes, I know Gilas aren't kingsnakes, but the data is nonetheless interesting - spend a great deal of time below 65 deg deep in burrows during all times of the year, when not molting, or gravid, etc. So, perhaps offering choices may help attribute to more positive results, IMO.
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Mark

Well said!
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Todd Hughes

Yes, I agree with that 100 percent. When they first hatched I think that I did not provide them with enough humidity. However, I think the main factor with these hatchlings, as well as the king hatchlings, was not providing what they wanted to eat.(snakes, lizards). The lizards I did provide but I was trying to get them to eat pinks. I am sure that low humidity plays a big role in some of these snakes not eating.

Good for you for trying everything you can. Nobody can argue over that.
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Mark

Indeed! My point is simply that regardless of what you do you're still going to have some not do well.

I was talking with Howie about all this the other day and we both agree that as breeders we start with the basics, if that doesn't work we move to improve things until we find what is right for that particular animal.

The thing is, at least for me, that I have to strike some kind of balance with my collection. The best thing that I ever did was taking my collection down from 200 plus to 24! With that few I get to look in on my animals individually on an almost daily basis. If the basics of care are covered NOTHING substitutes for time and attention.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Okay, first off I do not think Jerry was making a poke at me. Second, I keep my hatchlings in FIVE GALLON enclosures with a temp. gradient of 12 degrees. Not huge, but more than most. The humidity was varied a number of times in an effort to find out "what they want". This was done by placing a small cup of water on the heated side of the enclosure. I can assure you that very few people take the time with their snakes like I do. I am retired and have all the time in the world to work with them and I do. I only have twenty snakes so this results in a lot of attention.

Oh, and lets not forget the THREE HUNDRED dollars I spent on feeder gekos to keep them going. Sorry, but I did not appreciate those assumptions---maybe I should not have worded things the way I did either in the original post.

Once I re-read my post today, well, pretty rediculous tone. Sorry about that, not a good way to share information. I do apologize for replying that way and making assumptions.
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Mark

Yeah Mark, I felt the same about mine. Sorry. Hugs all around. Friends again. By the way, what kind of snakes do you breed?

Mark, The Harris County Speckled I just put in a cool part of my basement had been kept in a cool cellar 60 to 65 degrees,90 on the back of an AP rack(around 101 under the paper towel and 65 to 67 on the cool side and a deli cup with moss. I could go lower with the heat to bring down the cool side but then I'm not able to reproduce the aprox.100 degree end(used a temp gun). It's sibling is doing just fine and wolfing down ft pinks but it refused to feed.I'm trying to do the best I can without using my snake as an extreme experiment(dead = fail). Maybe I'll experiment with a whole clutch of Easterns someday but I can't right now.
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

Mark, I am sorry if that sounded a little harsh earlier but poor care was not the problem with the snakes I was reffering to. Sometimes cooling them off is what is needed and I believe that some hatchlings from the northeast do not feed until after brumating. Providing the meals they want can be a whole other issue when dealing with some of these king babies. I spent a lot of money on "feeder gekos" and obtained frozen baby snakes from breeders who have kept their dead hatchlings for zoos to feed to coral snakes. The good news is that cooling them off worked and they are alive, healthy, and now feeding on f/t pinks and fuzzies. Good ending.

Oh great, shoot down my whole platform.. lol

You gave the snake choices and it still refuses? Well I'm out. Just kidding. What about humidity, as in a cup of moss? Also, tight hides like 3/4" PVC pipe do wonders with security and humidity. Simply spray a little water in the pipe. As it dries, the local air in the pipe has a little more humidity w/o being constantly wet all the time. Part of the pipe over the heat, part in the cool area.

If that doesn't work, don't worry. I bet the hatchling feeds in Spring. If you want to cool it down like many others do here, go for it. I don't think you will be endangering the snake whether you cool or or offer choices. The humidity thing is a big plus. Of course I live in the West where it is so dry during Winter - humidity is a big issue. I often forget that for many here where they live humidity is not such a big deal.
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Mark

Man,this thread has gone all over the place and I cannot keep track of it. Anyway, I did everything for these little ones and in the end all that worked was to cool them down for four weeks. It did work though, no harm done and they are now eating. I certainly don't know everything and am always open to new ideas Mark, so thanks.

LIKE SANDS THROUGH THE HOURGLASS, SO ARE THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES...

*sniff*

Someone hand me a Kleenex . . .

LOL, but seriously, that was cool. We don't see stuff like that too often. Good on ya mates! And yes, real men wear pink too.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

No they don't.
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Diego

SWCHR

LMAO -- as long as it's not pants, socks, undergarments, or accessories then you're fine Diego.

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

...I think I'll err on the side of caution and avoid it altogether, Jerry, but thanks!
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Diego

SWCHR

Real men feed pinks!
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Todd Hughes

All we need are hot wings and beer and we're SET.

I decided NOT to join Howie's knitting club after all. LOL!!!
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Good to see you're coming back, Jerry! Beer's on me!!
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Diego

SWCHR

Nope.....berr's on the lady to your left. Body shots!!!

Ooops, that was supposed to STAY in Cancun...damn.......
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

I only like one thing pink---Hmmmmmmm. The snakes like pink too!!

LOL.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

.

I didn't hear the cock's crow . . . ?!?!?!?! Wait, go back to bed you left coaster . . . it's 7:52am by you . . . dang over achiever . . .

Any choice words to wanna pick on from THIS posting? LOL....
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Well, I have to say that I also raise speckleds and deserts and by far the specks are the longest holdouts, BUT, I have never force fed any snake and don't believe that practice is suitable for the average keeper. Case in point: this year I found a female speck that was gravid (unknown to me because I didn't palpate and she appeared thin), low and behold eggs laid Sept. 2nd and hatched Nov. 3rd. All attempts at feeding failed because they were not ready to eat. Bi-weekly feeding attempts showed no success until one ate on Dec. 13th, a second on the 23rd, the third on the 26th, and a fourth on the 24th. The 13th, 23rd, and 26th have taken a second meal and working on the third today. The 24th skipped the second meal and is working on his second attempt. The splendidas have way fewer holdouts and 5 or 6 TIMES the feeding. The milks have a moist cup of sphagnum to use as well as a dry hide, I might try this with the specks now. My neonate room has an eastern and southwestern exposure to outside temps and they all move around the enclosures to avoid the morning and bask in the evening (late afternoon). This is a hobby as most put it, so why not spend some extra dough to take advantage of things to add to your charges enclosures? If you cannot provide a cool room with a small hot basking surface area with a flat rock for them to hide under and a space to move away (moist substrate, not wet) then by all means spend the bucks for the mega- terrarium and do a whole enclosed habitat thing, lol. I just don't understand why you can't visualize in your mind a setup that would incorporate a Retes stack of some kind, a basking spot (hidden) and a moist hide or substrate. It is up to each person to decide how much time and effort to put into their "hobby", but if it becomes too much, we consider it a chore and it becomes not fun. I bet Rainer has a way to do this and has skipped a few steps. He has seen the areas and understands the concepts. Jerry, ever been to west Texas when it poured for days? Or Arizona during the monsoons? Where does all that water go?? I think snakes need very little water if they have the right humidity or a chamber, if you will, to go to. Sure, a water bowl is a good idea, but I think they need a lot less than we think they do. I know my Trans Pecos rats don't drink often. I bet kings drink where we can't see them most of the time. And I guess that's my point of this ramble, We don't know everything, and less than we think we do, lol! I learn a lot about where snakes are in the winter down here in south Texas, but it rarely gets below freezing here. I move further north and find them in the funniest places, in crayfish burrows, under area cover, (moist, not wet) above ground, close to the surface. Up in the far north I bet they find places where they don't go as deep as we think they do, using mass temps. Frank has said southwestern exposures, hillsides, mass temps, surface temps, body temps, internal body temps, humidity. Anything forming a picture? Not being an ass, just reviewing the notes from the last few years!

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Todd Hughes

HI Jerry

Nice stuff. Your giving me Agalma fever.

jason

Then cure it brother. Cure itttt - ahhhh! I say YESSS - ahhhh! I have the faith - ahhhhh, of the Lawwd - ahhhh, hallelujahhhhh!!! Can I get an amen? - ahhhh! LOL.

Remember the movie Coming to America? Hah!
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway