Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently noticed a small red swore on my python's gum line. At first I thought it was early signs of mouth rot, however reading over some of my books last night it might just be a swore. In any case I would like to clean it with some Listerine. I have already asked this question in the JCP without any responses, my question is with a very mean snake what would be the best method to constrain her while I clean/observer her mouth? I would prefer not to use the grab and hold and thought maybe someone had another way they like to use?

Any help would be appreciated.. Also she just ate on Sunday and has yet to go off weekly feed so his is good news of course I wouldn't try anything until her meal has passed..

Thanks,
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

I would use Nolvasan (chlorhexidine solution) over any other product. When diluted correctly it is effective against viruses, bacteria, AND fungi without being cytotoxic (destroying cells). Listerine has an alcohol base and would surely damage cells, though I know we rinse with it, we're talking about an open sore here. Hydrogen peroxide is also bad for open wounds despite popular belief because it too destroys cells and will disrupt fibroblasts which are necessary for proper healing. It is also a very poor disinfectant when compared to chlorhexidine. I really think chlorhexidine is something you need to keep on hand when you have reptiles as you can use it to clean enclosures and wounds.

www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FUJDS0 That's the brand we use at work (I'm a vet tech) and thus what I use at home and it works great. That bottle will last you forever too as the dilution used is very very small.

You purchase Chlorhexidine DIACETATE or "name brand" Nolvasan. There is a "generic" product called Chlorhexidine GLUCONATE that is not BOTH a bactericide AND virucide.

Although Chlorhexidine is used as a cleaning solution, it is also commonly used in mouthwashes.

Be sure to inspect the sore to see if it's an impacted tooth. Also, your best bet for the safety of you AND your snake is to restrain it by the head and pry open its mouth. This is easily done by taking a writing pen, holding it perpendicular to the snakes mouth, and rolling it against their lips. It would probably be helpful to have someone else present to apply the Nolvasan while you keep the animals mouth open with one hand (and the pen) and hold the animals head with the other hand.

jb

There are a number of chlorhexidine formulations available, Nolvasan is the diacetate formulation, there is the gluconate formulation which is the most readily used in surgical scrubs and wound cleansers, and there is also an acetate formulation. They all work the same way when properly diluted and effective against most bacteria, fungi, and viruses and have a residual activity of about 48 hours.

the bean farms website:

Description for Novalsan -
Nolvasan, One Gallon. (chlorhexidine diacetate), the only EPA-registered chlorhexidine disinfectant, works against at least 60 different bacteria, fungi, yeasts, and viruses. Nolvasan is non-corrosive, has minimal to no skin irritation, and retains antimicrobial activity in the presence of organic matter. Nolvasan's unique binding to skin proteins provides residual activity for as long as 2 days. We recommend using this if you have a serious viral or bacteria infection. Generic Chlorhexidine is "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" which is not a virucide.

Description for "generic Novalsan" -
Chlorhexidine (Generic Nolvasan) - Our preferred cleaning disinfectant for cages, furniture & water dishes. Sold by the Gallon. Mix 1/2 to 1 ounce of Chlorhexidine to a gallon of water for cleaning. Generic Chlorhexidine is "Chlorhexidine Gluconate" which is not a virucide.

--------------I was just going off of that---------------

link here:
http://www.beanfarm.com/store/agora.cgi?product=Health_Care&user4=Disinfectants/Cleaners&xm=on

jb

I have always known it to be virucidal. All of my books from school label it as such, but mention that chlorhexidine in general, no matter what formulation, isn't the best virucide as it is only effect against enveloped viruses. Here are a few studies that test it's virucidal activity:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761405?ordinalpos=20&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

jdr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/69/3/874.pdf

www.purdue.edu/Research/vpr/rschadmin/rschoversight/animals/docs/GuidelinesforSurvivalRodentSurgery.pdf

In the last link if you scroll down to Table 1 on page 4, they name both Nolvasan and Hibiclens, which are the two most well-known brands of chlorhexidine solutions as both virucidal and Hibiclens is chlorhexidine gluconate.

In all honesty, it probably doesn't matter THAT much since chlorhexidine period isn't that great of a virucide when compared with other disinfectants out there. When you're cleaning a wound you're more concerned with bacteria and fungi and nothing beats chlorhexidine for that. There is not one disinfectant out there that works for all pathogens though. For disinfecting surfaces, nothing beats good ole bleach (0.175% solution) in virucidal activity, though I know we are all scared to use it. 1 part bleach to 35 parts water is very effective (gives you that 0.175% since a bottle of Clorox is 6.15% bleach) and could be used for cleaning say after a possibly diseased snake passed away as long as things are let to air out. There are several quaternary ammonium cleaners that work well against viruses too such as Roccal-D and Foam Quat, both of which are readily used in the veterinary field. If you use Roccal-D, the current dilution I've seen mentioned by authors is 1:200-1:400 when used around reptiles, which is less than called for on the label.

Boy Jonathan, you're making my brain work today! It's always good to have constructive discussions though!

>>I have always known it to be virucidal. All of my books from school label it as such, but mention that chlorhexidine in general, no matter what formulation, isn't the best virucide as it is only effect against enveloped viruses. Here are a few studies that test it's virucidal activity:
>>
>>www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761405?ordinalpos=20&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>>
>>jdr.iadrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/69/3/874.pdf
>>
>>www.purdue.edu/Research/vpr/rschadmin/rschoversight/animals/docs/GuidelinesforSurvivalRodentSurgery.pdf
>>
>>In the last link if you scroll down to Table 1 on page 4, they name both Nolvasan and Hibiclens, which are the two most well-known brands of chlorhexidine solutions as both virucidal and Hibiclens is chlorhexidine gluconate.
>>
>>In all honesty, it probably doesn't matter THAT much since chlorhexidine period isn't that great of a virucide when compared with other disinfectants out there. When you're cleaning a wound you're more concerned with bacteria and fungi and nothing beats chlorhexidine for that. There is not one disinfectant out there that works for all pathogens though. For disinfecting surfaces, nothing beats good ole bleach (0.175% solution) in virucidal activity, though I know we are all scared to use it. 1 part bleach to 35 parts water is very effective (gives you that 0.175% since a bottle of Clorox is 6.15% bleach) and could be used for cleaning say after a possibly diseased snake passed away as long as things are let to air out. There are several quaternary ammonium cleaners that work well against viruses too such as Roccal-D and Foam Quat, both of which are readily used in the veterinary field. If you use Roccal-D, the current dilution I've seen mentioned by authors is 1:200-1:400 when used around reptiles, which is less than called for on the label.
>>
>>Boy Jonathan, you're making my brain work today! It's always good to have constructive discussions though!

I personally have never used bleach and prefer Distilled White vinegar, this stuff is amazing with its cleaning potentiel from studies I have read far superoir then bleach at killing nasties and non toxic to you, your animals and the environment.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

If you have access to those studies I'd really like to see them. I really doubt vinegar even comes close to disinfecting the way bleach can, that's why bleach is used in hospitals so much because it works. Sure vinegar has SOME antimicrobial properties, but I believe it has a very narrow spectrum of action and only against certain fungi and bacteria.

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/531649_3
www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121390846/abstract

All of our cages at work are routinely cleaned with Roccal-D and if the animal us possibly contagious anything it touches is cleaned with bleach instead. The same was true when we had a doctor that treated reptiles. If there was any chance of something infectious then the cage, water bowl, etc were all cleaned with diluted bleach. Of course, as professionals, we had to take every step possible to prevent any nosocomial infections and encountered a high volume of sick animals, most people don't need that much disinfection power.

Good news it seems the swore is healing, however closer inspection will still need to be made once she passes her meal.

I cant find the article about bleach vs vinegar I must admit I didn't look to long I had thought it was on 1001 uses for vinegar website but I don't see the article. It basically broke down what kills what and how effectively, honestly all I care about is that it has the "cleaning potential" of bleach without all the worries as far as safety and environmental are concern. That and I have been using it for years now without any issues.

BTW thanks again for the help, I purchased a bottle of betadine, providine-iodine and will eventually purchase the clorehixed.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Thanks for the responses. Should I dilute it using distilled water or will any water do? Does the bottle have all the needed instructions? Like can this stuff be ingested?

Thanks again,
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

I have always used tap water, but I don't keep the mixture beyond that day. It is something that you need to be careful of when used around eyes, though snake's eyes may not pose much of a problem since they have a spectacle. Usually when you're doing mouth rinses you want to angle the snake's head downward so that they don't swallow anything. Maybe Kelly Haller will post too and give some more insight on chlorhexidine for you.

I am a big fan of Chlorhexidine, but in this case, you can also paint the area with Betadyne. That way you won't have to do it as often. It and Chlorhexidine are both surgical scrubs, but Betadyne lasts longer. It's also available at any drug store.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Chlorhexidine lasts MUCH longer, that's one of its strong points. Some studies have shown a residual activity of up to 2 days! Kelly mentions it below too.

>>Chlorhexidine lasts MUCH longer, that's one of its strong points. Some studies have shown a residual activity of up to 2 days! Kelly mentions it below too.

I am not disputing the above, but in a patient without an iodine deficiency Chlorhexidine can last a couple of days as well. On the other hand people with deficiencies use the iodine quicker and it stops working quicker because it goes into their system and is used for other things.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Most of the information on chlorhexidine has been covered earlier in this thread, and I definitely agree that it is a great bactericidal product. As mentioned, one of the great characteristics of it is that it has better residual activity than about anything else, even longer than Betadine, Roccal, or Amphyl. Typical diluted concentrations for direct use are 0.05% for chlorhexidine diacetate and 0.12% for chlorhexidine gluconate. While not a big issue, it should be diluted with distilled water if possible because it is inactivated by water containing chlorides, but not chlorine. Many tap waters have a slight chloride concentration, although if used that same day, the tap water should have minimal effect. It is also effective for only surface wounds and will be ineffective against deep tissue infections. Both chlorhexidine diacetate and chlorhexidine gluconate are active against some viruses, but the diacetate form has a wider range of virucidal activity. Also, better virucidal activity of the gluconate form is realized at slightly higher concentrations than the standard 0.12% standard concentration, and that might account for the comments in the Bean Farm ad. Additionally, Listerine will have little effect on the bacteria in an actual infected wound, as it is basically only good for cleansing uninfected tissue. Watch this wound carefully so as to spot any advance of the infection as soon as it occurs.

Kelly

>>Most of the information on chlorhexidine has been covered earlier in this thread, and I definitely agree that it is a great bactericidal product. As mentioned, one of the great characteristics of it is that it has better residual activity than about anything else, even longer than Betadine, Roccal, or Amphyl. Typical diluted concentrations for direct use are 0.05% for chlorhexidine diacetate and 0.12% for chlorhexidine gluconate. While not a big issue, it should be diluted with distilled water if possible because it is inactivated by water containing chlorides, but not chlorine. Many tap waters have a slight chloride concentration, although if used that same day, the tap water should have minimal effect. It is also effective for only surface wounds and will be ineffective against deep tissue infections. Both chlorhexidine diacetate and chlorhexidine gluconate are active against some viruses, but the diacetate form has a wider range of virucidal activity. Also, better virucidal activity of the gluconate form is realized at slightly higher concentrations than the standard 0.12% standard concentration, and that might account for the comments in the Bean Farm ad. Additionally, Listerine will have little effect on the bacteria in an actual infected wound, as it is basically only good for cleansing uninfected tissue. Watch this wound carefully so as to spot any advance of the infection as soon as it occurs.
>>
>>Kelly

Thanks again!!
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Thanks Kelly.

Hi Kelley,

Wow, how long do you think Chlorhexidine lasts? lol Do you think we should be gargling with it? : )
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

Hi Caden,
I've seen reports that it has a residual that can last 24 hours or more due to absorption by the treated tissue. It can also be purchased in a concentration for use as a mouth rinse.

Kelly