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Hi, can anyone tell me what line of axanthic this is? Thanks

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Mark Kennedy

It is a Florida king. Both the anery and axanthic terms can be applied as the terms can be used interchangably.

However most hobbiests assign the anery term to more dark specimens and the lighter more "brooksi" are callled axanthics.

There is a strain of anery that is out there that is not compatiple with other "anerys". So a few people want to differentiate there line from the others by calling them anerys and evrrything else axanthics.

Anerythistic -mostly red snake lacking pigment
Axanthic- mostly yellow snake lacking pigment.

Since 'yellows' and 'reds' come from the same place (example orange or brown are intermittent colors) they both come from the same xantophors.

I asked Dr. Bern Bechtel this questions years ago and that is the answer he gave me. For those not aware Dr. Bechtel wrote the book on colubrid reccessive traits and morphs.

rainer how many ne axanthics did you end up producing this year?
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

rainer how many ne axanthics did you end up producing this year?

I have no clue. Some where combinations of the anery and axanthic traits and some (most) had other traits in them (multi hets from multi het-to-het projects).

But i did produce the New England line of examples for many years and kept the line completly pure (no outcrossing). I think I have been producing NE axanthic as well as lemke axanthics that were kept pure (pure is a relative word meaning back crossed to the parent stock) from about 1993-2007

Keep in mind that the there are anerys and axanthics that are allelic and some that are not. You can't tell by looking at them.

"Since 'yellows' and 'reds' come from the same place (example orange or brown are intermittent colors) they both come from the same xantophors."

Since this forum is about sharing information, I feel the need to clarify for those reading who may be trying to learn. The quoted statement above is inaccurate from a biological standpoint.

Chromatophores are color producing cells. They are grouped into sub categories based upon the colors they produce. Some examples of chromatophores relevent to this discussion:

Xanthophores - produce yellows
Erythrophores - produce reds
Melanophores - produce blacks

If you put the suffix "a" of "an" on a word, it means "without". That is where we get the terms "axanthic" (without xanthophores) and anerytheristic (without erythrophores). That explains the color dfferences seen between those two traits.

In an anerytheristic animal (anerys) the erythrophores are not working, in other words, no reds are being produced. In axanthic animals the xanthophores are not working and no yellows are being produced. Therefore, reds and yellows do NOT come from the same place as implied in the quoted statement above, only yellows come from the xanthophores.
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God Bless Evolution.

In an anerytheristic animal (anerys) the erythrophores are not working, in other words, no reds are being produced. In axanthic animals the xanthophores are not working and no yellows are being produced. Therefore, reds and yellows do NOT come from the same place as implied in the quoted statement above, only yellows come from the xanthophores.

Well not according to Dr. Bechtel. Maybe I used the wrong words to describe erythrophores (i used xantophores) but the fact remains that Florida kings have red and yellow and everything inbeteen. Most locales are red as neonates and become orange then yellow with creme or brown. So in your opinion when does a anerythristic become an axanthic? What size, age, month week year should the king be coined axanthic after (IF) it loses all red and brown coloration from starting out as an anerythristic?

Point is that both are the same trait. I first heard this whole arguement of a mosly yellow snake v.s. a mosly red snake back in the mid 80's. It was the same debate about some snakes that are more red and some that have no reds.

Take a common calif king. Lets say i bred an axanthic calif Black and white king (which has no reds)to a anery cornsnake (cornsakes have lots of red) and the neonates proved allelic? What would the trait be called then??

Anyway I think my point was missed and that was to keep things simple is describing that Florida kings have both yellows and reds and the two terms can be used interchangably. There is enough confusion made by one poster here already and i did not want to get over complicated .

"Point is that both are the same trait."

They are similar traits, but not the SAME trait. A genetic "trait" is coded for by a single gene. Several traits may combine to produce various physical characteristics such as shades of color. In the case of anerytheristics, the gene that codes for erythrophores to produce reds is malfunctioning or absent. In axanthics a different gene that codes for xanthophores to produce yellows is absent or malfunctioning. The result may produce SIMILAR physical characteristics in different animals, but they arise from two totally separate genetic traits.
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God Bless Evolution.

They are similar traits, but not the SAME trait. A genetic "trait" is coded for by a single gene. Several traits may combine to produce various physical characteristics such as shades of color. In the case of anerytheristics, the gene that codes for erythrophores to produce reds is malfunctioning or absent. In axanthics a different gene that codes for xanthophores to produce yellows is absent or malfunctioning. The result may produce SIMILAR physical characteristics in different animals, but they arise from two totally separate genetic traits.

Well we were talking about Florida king specifically here. Even Dr. Bechtel told me that text you are refferring to is flawed. They turn from red to orange to yellow and brown. How does one tag a trait between a mosltly red snake with the same trait that is displayed in a mostly yellow snake? better yet what do you call a Florida king that starts out red (some retain the red), and others turn lighter orange , yellow and brownish as they grow.

Personally I think the clssification used is flawed.

"Even Dr. Bechtel told me that text you are refferring to is flawed. "

Thats an interesting observation considering I never referred to any text. I agree with you when you said "the classification is flawed". You have been using the terms interchangably as has become the everyday usage in the hobby language...kind of like how many in the hobby mistakenly refer to all floridana as brooksi.
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God Bless Evolution.

Hi, can anyone tell me what line of axanthic this is? Thanks"

Oh it looks like it might be a cross between and anery and axanthic line.

It might be a cross I really don't know. She is an 06 so I guess she won't get any lighter in color. The one you posted is really nice. Thanks for the help!
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Mark Kennedy

Without a history all one can do is guess.

Your snake looks like a Lemke line Axanthic. (could be a cross btwn lines)

The other known Line of Axanthic (New England line) is much cleaner and some even near patternless.

I have seen and produced some really clean Lemke line axanthics that look similar to the NE axanthics.

Many people just think the NE line is a selectively bred line which originated from the Lemke line, which is very probable since both the Lemke line and the NE line are the same gene (Axanthic).

Lemke Axanthic (not so clean example): She's het Anery by the way.

NE Axanthic:

As far as the other MORPH; Anery: i suggest you ask a variety of breeders about this mutation. "Some" are confused about the relevance of the difference... some will give it you straight. The two genes (axanthic and anery) behave differently (separately and especially when bred to other mutations). Putting the terms (axan/anery) aside they are NOT the same mutation.

Axanthics are blue-ish-purple

Anerys are Black and White

Here are Ghosts from an Axanthic: NO YELLOW

Here are Ghosts from an Anery: YELLOW Tints

Here's an "EXTREME" example of an Anery: I say "extreme" because they are usually not this clean with way more black . but you can see the obvious difference in color from axanthic to anery

~ZF

good post Z. Answered my questions.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Thank you Tony.

My apologies for taking this long to thank you... "the forces" are at work again and no matter how i try, i get caught up in a back and fourth debate which is just pointless!

anyway thanx again, glad i can help.

~Z

This is just my opinion but the praise was deserved. I've found the status of a lot of morphs to be in a complete state of confusion if for no other reason a lot of guys just don't know how to communicate what they know. Your explaination of the FL morphs you work with made sence from the first and has remained consistent. Now if someone could do this with all the multi pit morphs floating around it would be great!
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Again thank you Tony.

My point here is not to convince anyone and it surely is not to confuse anyone.

Lumping two morphs together and saying they are the same will confuse people. especially when/if they breed them.

If you were to breed these morphs (axanthic/anery) to another mutation (hypo or lavender) your results would be completely different.

Axanthic x hypo as shown before shows no yellow

"Anery" x hypo expresses yellow tints

Axanthic x Lavender are PINK as babies, may be white as adults with lavender tipping on the scales... no yellow

"Anery" x Lavender are WHITE as babies and turn even whiter as adults and even display yellow pigments (stronger yellow if there is sulphur present)

In there simply forms Axan and Anery may look similar. simply if these morphs were the same you could not have two very different results when you breed these to other things to create a 2x homoZ.

I'm not asking for anyone to believe what i have to offer, we call can think for ourselves and derive our own conclusions.

If this explanation (below) suits "you" well. Then by all means carry on. I stated what i know and that's the end of that.
"THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ANERYS. ONE IS ALLELIC AND ONE IS NOT ALLELIC WITH THE AXANTHICS. BOTH TYPES OF ANERYS LOOK THE SAME."

We all should become educated consumers, hobbyist & breeders. don't take my word for it, get some animals and start breeding or do the research, talk to those working with this morphs and formulate your own conclusions.

It is my hope MOST can sift through the "snake poo" and come up with their own conclusions.

Additionally from time to time i find a variety of animations just browsing the Internet. but recently i've found some funny stuff on Myspace(dot)com... i was informed they are too large to display in my signature so i had to remove the one i had... but they are pretty cool.

~Z

The NE line originated from offspring of specimens owned by Bill Perron. Bill caught the parents on the "brooks canal" in the '80's, so the originals were "pure" brooks. Steve Garnett obtained a pair of normally patterned brooks from Bill, which he raised & bred. Steve's animals produced the first xanthics. Steve G later sold xanthic offspring to Steve Fuller (in NE). Steve Fuller's snakes, or their offspring eventually made it into the market.

Techically the strain s/b called the NY strain, since that's where it really originated.

Not sure if the trait still comes though on xanthics, but in the wild brooks we observed, males were more likely to have cleaner patterns than females.

Paul B

Posted by: PeeBee at Tue Jan 6 21:43:54 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Paul B

THANK YOU PAUL FOR THAT!! That is what i said before.

The New England did not originate from the Lemke line.

As far as the other MORPH; Anery: i suggest you ask a variety of breeders about this mutation. "Some" are confused about the relevance of the difference... some will give it you straight. The two genes (axanthic and anery) behave differently (separately and especially when bred to other mutations). Putting the terms (axan/anery) aside they are NOT the same mutation.

Anerys are Black and White

wromg. There are two strains of anerythristic. One is allelic with the axanthic and one isn't. The one that is not allelic with the axanthic strain was just discovered a couple years back. While the more common anery line has been around for 10 years . Both look the same.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

I did not say its correct because I don't know just that his take was well presented and that he has done so consistently. There is a lot of confusion in this area and I appreciate the consistency. Admittedly Brandon and Zenny work with fewer morphs, which is perhaps why their take on their stock is clearer. Sometimes being a small fish has its advantages.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

"Sometimes being a small fish has its advantages"

Not in this case.

>>"Sometimes being a small fish has its advantages"
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>>Not in this case.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com