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Another Question for FR

antr1 Jan 06, 2009 12:47 PM

FR-

I always take something away from your posts, so thanks for sharing your experience with the rest of us.

I am curious how you feel about cooling hatchlings in an effort to ellicit a feeding response. Typically I can get all my hatchlings feeding thru scenting, split heads, or any number of other methods.

This year I decided to cool the babies and am curious how you feel about that. I house the hatchlings in shoeboxes and they get a decent temp range, but considering the sixe of a shoebox there is not a huge gradient less then 10 degrees from the cool to the warm side.

Since just about all the non feeders were continually on the cool end I put them down to brumate.

I will see in a week or two if it helps any. Thanks for your input.

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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Replies (3)

FR Jan 07, 2009 10:58 AM

Beautiful pyros. You may not know this, but I have done lots of work with pyros, both in captivity and in the field. They have a huge part of my "snake" heart.

About your question. I again will switch gears. The problem of cooling poor feeding hatchlings is a bandaid cure. That is, it can work, but its not curing or better yet, understanding the problem.

What difference is there from before you cool them to after you cool them??? This is a very serious question. Does cooling them do some magic event to allow them to feed? Do wild kings inheritly brumate after hatching?

Lets answer the second question first, No they do not hibernate or brumate after hatching. They hatch from august to Nov. Even as late as Dec. But that is rare. They normally hatch at the end of the monsoon. There is reason for this.

The reason is, the monsoons bring to life the mountains after the long dry season. During the monsoons, plants florish, insects become abundant and all related animals thrive. Which means, there is both humidity for SMALL snakes to move around and there is prey for them to consume. Sadly, the snakes that do not build up energy, normally fail during winter and the following dry season. So, their task is to BANG it up and gain as much growth and energy, before harsh conditions occur, AND THEY ALWAYS OCCUR. So no, they do not naturally brumate after hatching. But they can!

So, back to your snakes, I break poor feeders down into two groups, weak neonates, normally due to our pea water poor husbandry. And to the main cuprid, Dehydration.

Dehydration, this is one reason kings are hatched after the rainy season, there is abundant humidity. This is important for a thin skinned snake(kings) When they hatch, they have the highest surface to mass ratio they will ever have in their lifes. That makes them more prone to dehydration then at any point in their lifes. They Have to be in suitable humidity or they will QUICKLY dehydrate.

The problem is, what are the symtoms of dehydration? Of course we recognize chronic or extreme symtoms, but what about the leading symtoms????? Guess what, feeding and feeding responce is DIRECTLY related to dehydration. You can easily test this. All healthy snakes cease to feed when dehydrated. In the early stages of dehydration, they become very picky. Feeding only on small items and a restricted varity. Again, easy to test.

I did and would direct my attention here. The problem is, it took me 35 years to really understand humidity and how its used with reptiles.

In the last 10 to 15 years, from working with varanids, I learned the key. Dry and humid is what this type of snake chooses to live in. Not wet, wet is not what they are looking for. They will use wet IF THEY ARE DEHYDRATED. But that is a cure to a problem, not what they normally live in. They have to maintain a certain state of hydration. The key for wild snakes is dry exposure. They control their movements away from anything that drys them out.

With us, its all about what they live in. We force them into a situation, they have no control over. We impose a set of conditions. Therefore we must learn to determine if those conditions are right.

Simply put, neonates do not have the same ability to withstand dehydration as adults. That old mass to surface area ratio. And the thickness of the skin. The thicker the skin, the longer they can withstand adverse conditions. Nothing new here folks.

So, keep the babies humid, not wet, allow a choice of temps and humidity, and security, and you will not have problem feeders, therefore you will not have to take the measures your thinking of taking.

NOW FOR THE BULLET, the real problem is, silly people(most of us) think of snakes in a very backwards way. We think they choose warm(80 someoddF) and you give them cool for brumation. The TRUTH IS, they choose cool all of their life and then use heat for short periods. The temps most call hibernation, is a NORMAL temp year around. This way, they do not waste energy. Then when needed, they move to heat for a specific task. So in a natural winter, most individuals do not contain food so no need to use heat, they are not shedding(a weird timing issue) so no need for heat there. But some individuals are in a reproductive state and DO CHOOSE HEAT, even in the winter, and normally for short periods of time. The rest of the individuals will choose cool and conserve, until conditions are right to feed, grow etc, then they use heat.

I have spent many years IN pyro habitat. In the summer, most individuals are in the ground and at a WINTER temp of 55 to 65F. Some individuals are digesting food and at warmer temps, some are in a reproductive state and are warmer, some are adding size and are warmer. FOR SHORT PERIODS. hahahahahahahaha sorry for yelling.

I ask people what temps do snakes hibernate at, they normally come up with from 55F to 65F, a few a little lower, like mister 50F person down below. Then I mention, we find colubrids and crotalids out and active at those temps. Then I mention, I have found five species of pythons crossing the road between 50 and 60F, "crossing the road", oh and three species of boas doing the same. Hmmmmmmmmmm ARe they hibernating in the road??????

I found and photographed a Gravid female Ridgenosed rattlesnake drinking out of a little puddle that was half frozen, with a air temps around 40F and she was in the shade. She was so cold that if you touched her, she would convulse. If left alone and she was(finally), she slowly crawled off. Hmmmmmmmmm hibernating while out drinking water. See, I really do not understand this hibernating thing. To hibernate means to become inactive, yet if they are active, then they are not hibernating, Yet they are ACTIVE at temps below those of hibernation. Dang I am confused. Cheers

jr56 Jan 07, 2009 11:15 AM

Thank you so much for the information. Reading your posts is expanding my knowledge by leaps and bounds, and it gives me new ways to think on things.
Take care,
Jeff Robbe

antr1 Jan 07, 2009 11:56 AM

Thanks for your response. I can see where hydration comes into play. i am in NJ and there is no doubt that the winter air is much dryer then spring and summer here.

So basically by brumating them, they will come out in the spring when the air is damper and feed, mean while without knowing any better I would have thought it was due to the brumation.

That might explain why a few of my yearling thayeri have begun to constantly hang out over (not in) their water bowls.

Thanks Again!
Anthony

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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

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