Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Been thinking about this choice thing for quite a bit. Not because I think its complete bunk but because there are some elements to it that I actually really like. As with any idea there are several dimensions by which to measure it but I'm going to work with only 2. On the first axis I'm going to put validity; or, in other words, are the observations of temp ranges utilized by wild snakes instructive for keeping captive specimens? On the other axis I'll put practicality, which relates to ones ability to achieve the temperature range. In the end it breaks down like this:

(Valid/Practical) (Invalid/Practical)
(Valid/Impractical) (Invalid/Impractical)

By organizing your information in such a way you see where to first focus your efforts. You certainly don't want to waste time applying an Invalid element of the observation that is also difficult or impractical to apply.

As an example of this, look at the low (60-ish) end of the suggested temperature range. While it is completely true that wild snakes will seek out and choose such cool temps during the summer they are STIMULATED to do so in response to drought and lack of available prey. SUCH STIMULATIONS SHOULD NOT EXIST IN CAPTIVE CONDITIONS! Provide adequate hydration (and a water bowl is a fine way to do this) and there is no need to go into moisture conservation mode. Provide an adequate diet and there is no need to go into energy conservation mode. Looking at practicality side of things, providing such an extreme air-conditioned background room temperature is impractical for most keepers. Doing so is energy intensive and expensive. From this analysis I get that the observed lows available to and utilized by wild snakes has no validity for maintaining captive specimens and is impractical for all but the most indulgent keepers. IMHO keepers would be well advised to spent their time and recourses to make improvements elsewhere.

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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

I'm feeling better already. We SHOULD celebrate the things that ARE possible and strive to perfect it as best as possible. I asked one of my alterna just yesterday how things were goin' -- he shrugged and said...."fine......why?"

I guess he likes the new and improved combination slate/ceramic layered "rock formation" that takes up 2/3 of his modest-sized cage that offers a small, untippable water bowl inside this creation, thus providing additional hydration. I will be MORE than happy to offer a photo in the spring when I have time for angled pics, etc. And no, I won't forget either.

Here's a shot in the old arrangement...

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Are you kidding around or did you really create a layered rock structure for alterna?

I made a less elaborate but still a layered rock pile for baby antaresia pythons. The babies used that almost always to the exclusion of other hides. Neat to see.

Did the same with a hatchling parviruba and heated part of the structure on one side with a heat rock. The snake used it sometimes, not any more than other hides. Favorite hide for this snake was a PVC pipe layed next to a heat rock.

And lastly, tried it with a Cal king for fun. Snake cared less about rocks, other than to use them to try and climb out. Likes dirt or PVC pipe, spent its time in and among both.

This is fun, beats a box of aspen, but is too time consuming on any grand scale.
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Mark

What I find amazing with Jerry's story is he has a snake that can pronounce its W's..and can shrug, with no shoulders!! and a alterna to boot!!!
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Are you ready for round 3? This year I think I want an alterna or thayeri, I'll let you choose LOL! However our boys better start playing better or I'll be toast come march. Let me know what your thinkin and maybe someone else wants to play too.
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"Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew!" Charlie Papazian

Jason, heck, I've been ready since last April..shoot me a e-mail at evansexoticenterprise@yahoo.com..I lost your address, and while your at it.. attach some pics the parents of the milk baby I'm gonna have to make room for this year. BTR (Big Ten Rules)
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

and they can feel emotions too. The shrugging looks scary, almost like kinking -- no shoulders required. And the W's?.....Hooked On Phonics worked for them as well.

LOL...

Glad you could jump in on the ribbing and humor!

The hard part is trying to create something as such and then hoping the snakes will find it ideal -- that's the watching part. Time consuming, but I wonder if it's just an initial investment. What one snake could find useful another might not with the exact same arrangement. Although some claim to have that kind of time with captive care, I certainly don't. But it does not mean I won't try something new and give it some tweaks here and there.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

I certainly wouldn't make that up. I only did a single enclosure, but again, there is more to do with respect to making safety modifications. I'll likely incorporate some form of non-toxic adhesive and play with that idea come spring. The variations are many, but the last thing I need is a piece of slate sliding off and causing injury.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

I have the time to do that and will probably try it. Let us know how that gray banded likes it. I was thinking of using thin pieces of slate for the stack.

hey bud, that's exactly what I was going to do for zonata and maybe utilizing some half-inch dark-colored foam strips sealed onto the slate in-between the pieces. It's still a work in progress...wish I had that kinda time. Been home for three weeks now and I'm gonna miss the free time when I return to work. Bahh!! Overrated work. But the crazier the world gets the more business I have, so......

Take it easy on the weights by the way. lol.... Jeeezussss....
Your arms look like a road map....
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

The veins make it easy for the doctor to hook up the IV. I get banged up all the friggin time!! How big of a gap were you planning on leaving between the slates and how are you planning on heating them. I thought about top heating but am afraid to dry out the enclosures too much and I would have to take apart the snake racks and drill big holes. I can think of some good patients for ya!

if I said half-inch spacers between the slates, then......

LOL! Sorry to be a smarta$$, but we're cool so no worries mate. You'll have your turn when the time comes.

I am investing in new racks this year and will use 3 inch Flexwatt with Helix thermostats set to 80F. Ambient temps are always between 65-70F no matter the season. I like the house cool anyway, and it works in this capacity as well. You guys getting snow down there this weekend?
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Don't sweat it Joe. Jerry is definitely on the "gifted" list as well! Har! Har!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

I always wondered why it never took me a long time to reach the back of my school bus!

Guess I read right over that "half inch spacer" part. Speed reading! I hope we get some snow. I will be plowing and making some money! Oh, and I deserved that crack.

I was worried about Ahhhnold's wrath. I'm just sitting here looking at topo maps of the California mountains and sipping tea. It's nice when the kids are asleep sometimes, and tonight is one of 'em. The mrs is working late and I have the place to myself. All I need is the robe, slippers, and a couple bunnies to my immediate side -- Hef here i come!
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Watch out Joe! He's a shrink!
-Phil
How come every "counselor" I've ever met is crazier than me?
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Jerry, gosh darn it I am proud of you!

Great project since you have all of those zonata too.

Tub of aspen and a water bowl, be gone I say, be gone!
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Mark

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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

IMHO keepers would be well advised to spent their time and recourses to make improvements elsewhere.

tony what else is there to improve then? and whats wrong with a humid hide? seems like you are defending a barebones setup why? on a side note i am excited to say i am published in reptiles mag march'09 sheck it man,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I was using one specific as an example but humidity hides are a great example of what is both practical and valid. Perhaps to keep things more positive I should have used that example. I think the reason I didn't is because I was really contemplating the need to widen the thermal range my snakes are afforded. I'm in the minority in that I could actually do it though I suspect I'd start to have significant condensation issues on the cool side. In any case to answer your question directly I guess we could look to improve things by:

Providing more niches opportunities in the range we do or can establish
Increasing humidity
More appropriate bedding
More varied diets
Lighting
Radiant vice convective heat
Quantifying stock selection on the basis of something other than an eye candy test

In any case that's a short list
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

what about winter temps Tony? Do you think you should give them a choice then? Should the snakes have a cool side and be fed? Or should the temps be dropped to the 60F range for 3 months and not be fed??

Depends. My sense is that my temporalis would elect to chill for a while but my goini would continue to pound. I'm not sure however if there is a huge difference between having a cage with a wide static (same year round) thermal gradient and seasonally adjusting the rack temperature as behavior dictates.

To provide a little insight into how I look at things, my rooms have always had good access to natural photoperiods that I believe (unqualified) affect behavior as much as heat.

I'm kind of developing this concept of Total Heat, which describes the relationship between available temperatures, photoperiods and feeding response. I suspect that available hi temps and photoperiod have effects that are inversely proportional in other words the higher the hot side the less impact photoperiod might have.

For example (completely made up) given a 95-degree hot spot a king will eat when exposed to a 13-hour photoperiod. Lower the temp 5 degrees and the snake stops eating. Increase the photoperiod by an hour and snake resumes eating at the lower temp.

Total Heat would also affect feeding response relative to prey size in that X amount of total heat is required to properly digest a meal weighing Y. This relationship would be proportional. Increase X and you can increase Y. Most of us have seen something like this. My coastals stop feeding on weanling mice in late August but will take fuzzies for another couple of weeks. X is down so they respond to prey of smaller Y.

Anyway its just a theory but it seems plausible. Should be pretty easy to test too.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

"...natural photoperiods that I believe (unqualified) affect behavior as much as heat."

Absolutely.

And it's realistic.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Oh, just stop it guys. You are making too much sense!!!

I've been thinking about the light cycle thing as well as snake individuality. For example I have a clutch of Nelson's milk snakes hatched in October 2008 kept in a natural photoperiod. They have access to a warm area and a cool area. Half have stopped eating and stay exclusively (as far as I can tell) in the cool area. But the other half are eating every three days. Same conditions, same clutch - different feeding outlooks.

So I guess what I'm trying to do is add individuality to the equation as well. The "correct" setup is nice, but not all snakes kept in the same conditions behave in the same way.

Tim

Captive conditions research. We need more of that. Great info. Makes sense to me, some of mine would strike like mad and others did not.

"but not all snakes kept in the same conditions behave in the same way"

Exactly!
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

I would say the snakes go where the prey goes! How many times have we flipped substrate and found a snake lying next to its' next food source? I have many times! I really think that most of the eastern guys have it in there head that snakes shut down in winter, period, because that's what a Buffalo winter would call for, brrrr! But on the other extreme, an southern Arizona winter will allow for a snake to feed during winter. A few days of cold followed by a few sunny days and bang! they are up again. In the deep south this is very true, we get snow about once every 15 years! I saw an atrox crawling through snow on Dec. 27th a few years back, after the sun came back out. The snow hadn't quite melted and stuck around for a few days. While you may be right in that keepers don't think they can go full tilt boogy with their individual cages, especially with large collections, I know Jerry is on the right track with his stacks. Why do we need belly heat? Snakes use belly heat at night mostly I think, they use radiant heat on a heat sink, overhead direct heat on a small spot is ideal, on a Retes stack of say, thin, flat rocks. Make it as small as you think the snake can cram into and you have done about as good in captivity as you can, if you can get the cool side and humid hide going. All this on top of a deep substrate for burrowing/nesting is the best. While you may quantify it is not worth your time, money, and energy to do so, I think others may disagree. There are ways to make it happen and Jerry is really on to something with his alterna. He will have to tweak it I am sure, but how much did it cost him in time, energy, and money? Not much I suspect, and I bet he sees somee real data that he can share with the class.
Ever think that maybe snakes NEED to choose temps to live a quality life? I would bet they do. I believe they do. I hope you can see through this thread in that there certainly is no malice intended. When I reread my posts, sometimes even I think I am angry sounding, lol! It just seems to me there are two camps of people. One likes the easy way, settled way, scheduled, if you will. The other camp tries different things, tweaks things, moves, adds subtracts things to possibly find better ways. If not for both camps, we would have no long term data, or new approaches.

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Todd Hughes

nothing like a happy thread. Both dualities are very very true. we NEED that data from the field...we do. But how that translates into captivity is something very different as we can not possibly offer to many variables within such a confined space. We might as well say "let's not keep herps if we can provide it." Believe me, I get so FIRED UP when I walk down Manhattan streets and I see people walking their Siberian Husky that is, more often than not, over fed and under exercised. They are not providing what is needed for this breed of dog, however when I go to Canada and participate in dog sledding (in which I'm doing again next week -- woohoo!) I feel a bit better because this is what these specific kind of dogs need. I'm trying hard not to go off on the dog/wolf tangent....lol.

But although our critters are not specifically for jobs, they are manipulated via selective breeding. Again, a whole nother thread dare I say, BUT the point I'm trying to make again is that we often keep snakes like we do those folks with the Huskies -- cramped and without beneficial provisions for both physical and psychological health. BUT, the field data NEEDS to be translated into what we can REASONABLY and REALISTICALLY provide to our cherished captives. Although much heavier, I like the provisions I made for this alterna -- and I've only done it with that one to see if there are any changes. I certainly plan on doing it with my zonata ssp as well -- my MAIN concern is safety because the slate and ceramic is created by me and not the forces of nature for a seemingly perect fit where i can simply flip the slate in my 28 quart tub and put it perfectly back into place as would responsibly be done in a rock outcropping for example. It's imperfect and i worry about slippage and injury -- thus there is more work to do on this. But it's a start. Otherwise, to provide EXACTLY what is required for such vast selection -- we would have to refer back to that "human enclosure" built around herp habitats if we are going to b*tch and complain about perfection. Whomever is close to perfection, I want a photo of it as a learning tool (Shannon, shut up.....LOL).
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

"I hope you can see through this thread in that there certainly is no malice intended."

Indeed I see no malice nor is any intended on my part.

"Ever think that maybe snakes NEED to choose temps to live a quality life? I would bet they do. I believe they do. "

I think we're closer on this than you know however our sense and or belief that this is the case has no bearing on the actual facts. No doubt bigger cage with more options equals a greater expression of behavior. What I do not "know" is that animals without the opportunity to express behaviors are "suffering" or leading a lower quality life. I suspect what is most at play here is our desire to salve our conscience for keeping wild animals captive in the first place!

As for the two camps thing, I can see you thinking that. Someone recently questioned why I defend the minimum requirement so much. Good question but its not that I'm defending doing things from a minimal perspective. I'm motivated to first address the minimum because I think more snakes endure neglect from the basics not being met than those that "suffer" from a poor "quality of life" or lack of choices.

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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Your talking to a "tweaker" here. Ha Ha. No, nice post. Some of us do try everything we can (within reason) to make our snakes happy.

Mr. P.
Unfortionately some of the people on this forum, and
contributers to this debate, are TWEAKERS! No quotation
marks necessary! LOL!!! One of these days I'll get off my bum
and give you a call. Ah! Springs a comin'!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

I thought you were just pissed cause it's hard for you to type an "O"..LOL..just kidding Todd..or am I?
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Haha, that does set me off sometimes! OOOOOOOOOOO! There, I'm tweaked!

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Todd Hughes

You'll have to forgive me, I do not know who took these
photos, but they have been posted on Kingsnake.com before.
I'm sure many of you will find them interesting, even if you are aware of zonata's natural environs. Jerry? LOL!!!!!


-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Yeah I took that pic. If you look on top of the rock in the first pic you can see the snake sitting there, I found it under the rock of course. Found several more that day.

I found it under a small flat peice of rock right near the rock it is sitting on. I did not find it under that big rock.

Rainer!
I have wondered for a very long time who's pic that was.
Any locale info, or at least ssp. Unlike Jerry, I'm not
as savy with ssp. I'll go ahead and guess multicincta X zonata
intergrade?
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

multicincta. Locality? Shucks....way too tough, but I will guess somewhere around Tulare County? Again, ballpark.

LOL, Rainier, I was actually going to ask where the back-hoe was to help lift that rock, but then I read your subsequent post. Too funny. What month was the find? Very cool.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Multicincta is correct. Madera county, Calif.

Lugging a 4 1/2 ft crowbar into the mountains at high altitude is a great way to get into shape..

Hey Rainier (I hope I'm not botching your name...Rainer? Reiner?),

anyways, lol, locality calls are tough with z's. And I really do respect the hush-hush approach -- the website I am developing is dedicated in significant part to education around the dire importance of such micro-habitats and what provisions are there for the creatures that inhabit them, as well as the inevitable consequences and irreparable damages incurred due to haste and carelessness.

We have this experience up here in the NJ pine barrens -- the poaching is so evident (i.e. the placing of small stones under large stone slabs that were once secured into the ground (also interrupting micro-habitats for coastal plains, ring-neck, and worm snakes to boot....) to provide pseudo-shelter for baby pinesnakes near known hibernaculums. It's sick. But it's the reality of things unfortunately, so taking such precautions is extremely important and should be well-received / understood by all.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Well I could tell you the locale but then I would have nothing to look forward to in the future. These places are raped pretty bad with rocks that are turned over and not put back. With the internet it is even worse than word of mouth.

BTW it is muticincta from the central Sierra mtn range.

Oh yeah! I definitely know about the nature rapers.
I've seen rocks flipped and broken by digging bars, and left
where they lay. The Forestry Dept. contractors are even worse.
They cut and remove trees and destroy habitat in the process,
all in the name of helping to manage our natural recources,
with tax payers money. Oh boy! Central Sierra multicincta
was what I was looking for. 'Nuff said!
Thanks.
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

>>As an example of this, look at the low (60-ish) end of the suggested temperature range. While it is completely true that wild snakes will seek out and choose such cool temps during the summer they are STIMULATED to do so in response to drought and lack of available prey.

Tony,
Your example is not entirely accurate. Wild snakes will also seek out these cool temps and use them while feeding and breeding. For some species in some regions access to these cooler temps is critical for life cycle.

Lot's of what Frank says is on the valid but impractical. But then again his point always has been to make it about the animals and not you. When you make it about you, that's where the practical vs impracticle comes in.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"Tony, Your example is not entirely accurate."

Wasn't intended to be. One thing I'm seeing though is there is a tremendous difference in how east coast herpers see all this and the west coast guys see things. I don't think either view is wrong but snakes obviously manifest different behavior in the coastal plains than they do in the arid SW even if they are accomplishing the same things.

In any case all this has gotten me to think about how I might extend the breeding season for some of my animals, which generally turn off in Late August every year. It would be sweet if I could extend their feeding season another month or so. Don't know if you followed it or not (discussed in my response to Rainer in this thread) but I've come up with this concept of "total heat" which describes the interplay of applied heat and photoperiod that may help.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!