Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I see the benefits of birthing tubs, being able to monitor production of individual females to maximize production per female. But does anyone think that the ability of the female to be pregnant right after birth outweighs those benefits. Do you think you end up with more rats produced by culling nonproductive females. How many breeders do you think you'd need for one method to be more effective than the other.

I have 96 females setup now 1.3. I'm looking to double that shortly before I do I'd like to know if I should change my methods to birthing tub style.

Thanks for any input.

Nate

I remember Sonya replied to a thread a while back that the number of decent litters ie the total number of babies produced to be similer between the two methods.

Each has an advantage....

Birthing tubs (or as I call it cycle breeding) is where a female is introduced to a male and removed before giving birth. That is the method I use for one main reason, I can control the average weekly output from my feeder colony. Right now I'm running 13 litters a week. Most of which are born on the weekend.

Harem breeding is where the male female groups are kept together constantly. Much more advantagious for larger operations where statistical averages come into play. With harem breeding you will have weeks where one individual tub has no new babies. You can also have a week where most if not all the females give birth. That can mean weeks of feast/famine for your output. More tubs(harems) = higher overall volume and = lower average variation sisnce statistically in a larger sample size the extremes will cancel each other out. In the same week a few tubs have not production, other tubs will overproduce while most tubs will have closer to average production.

I don't know where the break even point is. Crunching a few numbers with 100% litter results (duh, ya don't usually get that) at my 13 litters / week....

Harem - 13 litters each week = 52 litters per 4 weeks or...
18 harems of 1.3 (actually 54 litters/month) or 18.54 breeder rats.

Cycle - 13 males and 52 - 104 females depending on size of feeder produced. All pinks would be 52, all weanlings would be 104 I'm running about 70 for my mix of pinks/fuzzies/hoppers and weanlings. So about 13.70 breeder rats.

Funny, you'd think there would be a larger delta between the two. The difference being harem females will be bred right away even if all the babies are taken as pinks. Cycle females will be recycled as soon as babies are gone so sometimes will be closer to harem breeding rates while other times will be two months between litters.

But, I beleieve harem females have fewer babies per litter, I'm averaging about 12 with cycle breeding. So may have to factor that in. How many babies are your 96 females producing per week?

Last point is even though they can be pregnant while nursing, it's tough on the females. Food becomes a critical factor in keeping them healthy and even that may not be enough.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,

Thanks for the response. 30 of the 96 females are recently setup breeders and have not produced yet. The other 66 females have been producing between 6-700 rats a month. My normal litter size is about 13. With the low being 9 on first time moms and the high having been 17. Occasionally on a 1.3 setup that has those higher end litters I'll lose a pup or 3 that was stuck under the pig pile. I rarely if ever actually have a baby free tub because of the fact that when the babies are weaned the mom pops out more in 2-3 days. I've had this going now for about 14 months. I'm wondering about the "cycle" method mostly because I've seen everyone rave about it and I'm planning on expanding by at least twofold. I wanna make sure I'm approaching this in the most efficient manner before I do the expansion.

Nate

Well Nate, at 6-700 rats per month out of 66 females, that's about 10 babies per female per month. You probably have some females not producing or not producing well.

IMO with your intention of doubling your production, you're easily above the level where harem breeding works better than birthing tub breeding. You just need to keep individual tub numbers so you know which tubs are not producing well and need to be recycled.

What are ya doing with all those babies?
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

BTW,

I like the birthing tub method for two main reasons, first it allows me to produce fairly consistently even when I need fewer feeders. And the tubs in my racks are fairly small. Large enough for 1.3 adults w/out babies or two females with babies.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I had better production rates using the cycling method with aquariums than with the rack I built for harems. I keep 1:3 in the smaller size mortar tubs.

The rack is a little less work but also a little less production. I've been thinking about building another rack for birthing tubs and going back to cycling.

Dave, how many birthing mothers do you place together in what size tub?

Thanks!
HH

By the way, I've got a picture that I think you'll get a kick out. I'll try to remember to send you a link to it the next day or so. It'll bring back memories of your drumstick feeding days. Ha! Ha!
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Totally agreed, by giving them a month (or at least some time) off between litters they drop more in each litter.

The tubs in my racks are 11" x 17" at the floor. I can get 1.3 in one tub for breeding. By cycling weekly, no female stays in longer than three weeks. With a 23-24 minimal gestation, they come out on Wednesday and the weekend is busy with birthing. I give each mom their own tub for birthing, then combine two moms and 24 babies in a single tub to raise them. As some disappear - hungry snakes, I combine further still keeping two moms and 24 babies per tub. Surplus moms go back into the cycle on the next Wednesday.

LOL, you must be talking about Annie, a Burm I had 17 years ago.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

what the best way to keep the records on your tubs, or tanks etc. when you have alot of tubs they all start to look alike thanks

A paper tag right on the front of each tub. Easy enough to list litter dates and qty, or alternative is date and qty removed. Could even go with how many new pinks on a weekly basis. Whatever works for you.

For me with birthing tubs each individual female has it's own tag. I list "m/d W/x" and "m/d -" example...

Black hood
10/17 w/12 (on 10/17 introduced into male 12's tub)
11/9 - (on 11/9, litter was born)
12/5 w/3 (on 12/5 introduced into male 5's tub)
12/29 - (12/29 litter born)

I don't even count the babies, just a glance tells me if it's a decent size litter. I use 1/2 of a 3" x 5" card and only room for 10 breedings worth of info, I retire the female when the card is full, assuming she lasts that long giving me good litters.

Lastly, for any breeder, these rules have served me well.....

Does not produce - fed off
kills babies - fed off
fights with others - fed off
gets sick (tumor etc) - fed off
jumpy or unhandleable - fed off
Bite me - whacked on cement, then fed off

After generations of following these rules, I have a calm easily handled colony that produces well. Duh, hoppers are jumpy, no getting around that but for all others, adult breeders, adults and subadults in my growout rack, I never get bit - EVER!!! I just reach in and grab them. Quite often without even looking. For smaller ones, by the handfull even.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats