Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a small collection of 4 balls they are all over 1000 grams they have always been fed rats but the smell of them sometimes gets to me so im thinking of switching them to asf rats. i have a few questions hopefully someone can help me answer? first at the full size are they too big to feed to a adult ball? second im worried that there know to be biters that they may attack my balls before a regular rat would? i tried feeding dead and thats not an option for me. but i do watch them while there feeding on live. is there really no smell to them? thanks for your help.

I have ASF rats. I love them. The largest ASF will be easily swallowed by any large ball python. they are about the size of a small common rat. They breed well and have large litters. They do take several months to reach a adult size.

My ASF rats have a strong dislike for people but they have never shown aggression towards my python. I would recommend monitoring the feeding time no matter the choice of live prey.

As far as smell goes, they do not smell as strong as common rats. Regular substrate cleaning should curb any orders from the ASF.

Good luck
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Adrian De Leon
Hissenia Reptiles

I have a small colony of ASF's and find that they're very fast and hop like mad when I feed them to my balls. They don't smell nearly as bad as rats.

Mice are absolutely disgusting smelling.

Have you tried litter box training your rats?

I have a few tanks that use the litter box gladly..... thank goodness. It's really easy to litter box train rats.... or should I say it's been really easy for me?

ASF's that I have use a litter box as well.

I also raise mice, rats, and ASF rats. I really like the ASF, and have replaced most of my regular rats with them. But I never heard of anyone litter box training them, although I have noticed that they will use one or two corners as their toilet and the rest of the cage is pretty clean.

Do you use cat litter, or some other substrate that is different than the bedding? Do you do anything else differently when using, or training, with a litter box?

They will use a litter box -- you can use cat litter or small animals litter - I think it's the same stuff -- however for me it was just easier just to scoop out their potty corner than to change the litter. You put the litter box in their potty corner and stick some soiled bedding on the top - they'll figure it out pretty quickly.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

ASF rats chew up just about everything , what could you use for a litter box that they won't just destroy in a week? I also find that they kill the babies if they aren't furry at the time you change the bedding, once they are 10 days old or so they seem to be fine with changing things out but man will they kill the little ones if your not paying close attention, seems the stress of new bedding makes them kill/eat the young ones.. Any comments to that issue?

Anthony McCain

one... they're born sorta furry and ugly as he!!.

I'll put a couple of small plastic containers in their tanks....normally one on each end, they tend to use one to all pile up in and ofcourse they have the urge to chew them.....

and the other will for some reason be the one they use to potty in.

I put the containers in empty and started noticing that they were using it regularly..... I left it alone for a few days and started noticing them putting shavings in it to cover it up...... I thought that to be strange...... I empty the container and just wipe it without thoroughly cleaning it... back in it goes and back to what they do. strange lil creatures.

My newborn ASF rats look about identical to newborn mice when first born they are ALOT smaller than regular newborn rats , mine have little to no hair to speak of till they are a few days old. My ASF rats also are not biters as a rule, I have only had a handful of them ever even attempt to bite me. I'm not sure why they are this tame either as I know alot of people say they constantly have them trying to bite . I have had them for about 18 months now and wonder if they get more tame with each new generation of babies or what? Truth be told I would MUCH rather handle the ASF rats than the regular white rats I buy as feeders. Those white rats try to bite all the time and actually seem more wild than my ASF rats do . I know it sounds backwards but consistantly that is the case here. I am glad the Africans don't bite much , now if I can just keep them from killing the babies I'll be in great shape. I have a 10x16 building that is strictly for ASF rats and I agree they smell ALOT less than mice or reg rats. I agree they grow pretty slow and if you can keep them from killing the babies they have 7-12 in a litter normally. They also do best in a prety warm building about 75-80 seems best I think.
Anthony McCain.
Anthony McCain.

I think there must be some genetic diversity to these when it comes to biting as I was also lucky enough to get some (for the most part) non biters. I'm trying crossing them with another line now that has a little larger adults and larger first litters (17 vs. 11) but hopefully I can keep the temperament. I actually changed a cage the other day while a female was having babies and got away with it. I have lost a few babies when the temp dip into the low 70's/high 60's but mine don't even seem to eat those.

I would also have to agree that the smell is much better than rats and of course very much better than mice. But they are not totally odorless if you have enough of them to get the bedding wet in their litter corner. They don't have anything to get a hold of to chew in the cement mixing tubes I raise them in but I give them blocks of wood which they do chew. Unfortunately I don't have quite enough clearance for wheels in that setup (or at least I haven't found one yet) but those Home Depot tubs are pretty big so they have some running room in the cage. Also, you need to use 1/4" wire on the top as I've heard babies can get through 1/2".

what do you all feed them? it might make them bite or not? eat babies or not..??...

...mine all go on one end...the same end I throw the food?...stupid...and they will set on top of any amount of food and look to be fed....like ..hey...I'm hungry...so you throw in food and they all go nuts and eat at it right away....even though they are standing on even a pound of food...up to 5 different types...they are just that stupid or lazy they will not dig at all...and always defecate on the food....I think they are stupid....

they are productive...every 23 days like 17 babies is what I was getting at the start when I kept mental notes....

they will eat the kids if hungry,or other reasons...

they will bite usually due to the fact that YOU are going into THEIR cage/home....just like russian hamsters....once out...they are tame....

foods.....I use all kinds of stuff daily....

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.....and fried muskrat!!!
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I mix up my own feed, it is a mixture of sunflower , millet, corn, and I add from 16% protein pig feed pellets in there for a little extra trace elements. The babies seem to like the pig feed as it's a small pellet and easy for them to grab and nibble on, as they get bigger I find it harder to get them to eat the pig feed as they really prefer the sunflowers over anything else. I have tried dog food , they literally tossed it out of the cage and didn't like it??? I haven't tried lab rat chow , I hear they eat it, I'm just afraid they won't like it as well as the seed mixture I blend up. I think they are alot more picky than rodents generally are and think they are more like a Gerbil in that respect than a rat. They also waste alot of food it seems. I feed them right on the bedding that way the babies can reach the food too, they do scatter the feed around some and that seems to cause some food to go uneaten. I think part of my trouble is I have to many in the tub, they are big tubs like the ones Randy is talking about but I still think I need to thin them down as less in a cage may likely make it easier to raise up the babies.

Anthony McCain

Mine won't eat block -- they get a seed mix -- small kibble puppy food and a variety of left over meats, vegetables, bread, cereal, etc. -- I give them a variety of shelled nuts mostly for playing with but they do eat them as well and super worms -- they love superworms.

I haven't had any baby eaters that I know of (knock on wood).
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Super worms, man I bet that helps curb the desire to eat the babies . When you run out of super worms do you think they will seek out meat and eats some of the babies or is it a nonissue when you run out of the worms?? Interesting stuff here!

Anthony McCain

OK....

I NEVER tell anyone this...but I will now......

sweet potatoes......not white...they won't eat white potatoe that much...but they love sweet potatoes...

I actually throw a couple of my tanks mouse pinks...yep...sometimes mice have pinks on top of like 30 hops or fuzz and some pinks will die...if they are good and fresh I throw them over to a tank of Soft Furs ....I rip them a little and they seem to dig in quicker...the one tank really knows how to eat a mouse...yes I have used hoppers...they get out of the 1/2 inch screen tops...and almost all go to trash...but clean ones I also throw to the africans...(ripped)...they like it...

I don't trust crickets...germs and all.....too cheap to buy mealworms...they'd eat too many...(have done it with all rodents when I bred mealies).......one year the mayflies were so thick I scraped up like 4 cups of them in a couple minutes (corner gas,clean sidewalk) thick with them.....deer mice ,zebras,and pygmies loved it....

......I use...

dog food
lab block
oats
corn...all the time....these 4
plus sweet taders...

plus at times

millet
sunflower
bread

etc etc etc.......
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.....and fried muskrat!!!
mmmmmmmmmm

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I've also been lucky on the feed so far and haven't had much waste. I bought a $17.50 fifty lb bag of Mazuri 6F back about September and seems like I've produced a couple hundred feeders and am only about 2/3 through the bag. I have supplemented with bird seed, about two tablespoons per cage per day. I've found they really like millet and sunflowers and don't care much for sorghum or soybeans (mixed in from my dad’s farm). I feed the lab block through 1/4" wire so they have to work a bit at getting it and they do seem to prefer the bird seed but I'm rationing that as a supplement with the idea that the lab block is more balanced so I want them to keep eating it too.

lab block was $19.35 here...it went back down to $18.35 when gas went back down....

I use 100 pounds of lab a week...50 pounds of corn....25 of oats...plus at least 25 of millet or sunflower....plus sweet taders...plus other stuff....oh...and like 30 or more pounds of dog food.....a week.....then add the 2 or more bales of pins shavings.....

yea...my bill sucks....at least $80 a week.....but I know guys that use a skid a week of lab only...and he just doubled production.......!!!!

luckily I found a new store AT the farm....and not all stuff comes from Agway.....agway corn...9.50...farm 5...agway oats....10.50...farm....6....sunflower 15 grown on farm....up to 42 a bag at another store...25 agway more or less....millet...25 plus....farm....15.....

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...JY

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I just feed mine Mazuri blocks and they love it but I never fill their hoppers full because they will just go crazy some night and waste all the food.

Jason Little

"they will bite usually due to the fact that YOU are going into THEIR cage/home....just like russian hamsters....once out...they are tame"

The guy I got my originals from had two colonies, one that didn't bite and one that did. Sure enough, one of my original males from the biting colony would run up to you and bite. I fed him off. From the other colony I've seen one bite when restrained (and given the chance, I just hang by the tail and don't give them the chance) but they don't run up to you aggressively like a lot of other ASF's I've heard of and that one colony I've seen. I strongly suspect there is a gene for this behavior and anyone who has the aggressive ones might be able to improve this if they wanted to work in some from a less aggressive colony. I did get a 3rd colony that seems more aggressive (but not psycho like the 2nd) and I just set up the first colony to cross the two so I'll find out if I can get the good temperament back eventually.

I feed mine rodent blocks. Have been picking up the kind from Petco, but that is getting expensive. Trying to find a local feed store that will order in Mazuri or another brand for me.

What size groups do you set up for breeders? I have mine in 2.6 groups. The guy I got my first founding animals from did his that way. Have had some success, but can't help but wonder if there is a better group arrangement. Using glass caging now, but looking into building a rack system.

Only one attempt to bite so far from mine, and that was a mother protecting a baby that I was picking up.

Derek

.....yep

1.4 works well
mice 1.15 to start
rat is 1.9...he's ok.....
deer (white footeds)(Peromyscus leucopus) are 1.5 per 10G
chinese 1.1 per 5 Gal bucket
russian 1.1 per bucket
gerbils 1.1 per lab cage plus one kid for company (they seem to like it here)..
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.....and fried muskrat!!!
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For the litter box I used one from petco I think it's for ferrets or maybe rabbits - it sits in the corner of the tank - it's plastic -- it remained in tact for the duration of my testing period (two months) with little to no chewing.

I have found that if you stick a wheel in the cage - it cuts down on the chewing. They still nibble on stuff but I have wooden houses, tunnels, toys and water bottles that I've been using for the past year or so with minimal chewing.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Tosha , the wheel idea makes good sence to me. So where do you buy those by the dozen to get the best deal? I assume you use a metal wheel so it lasts longer. Thanks for that tip, I haven't used wheels with rodents for along time but do think they would benefit with a wheel by keeping them from getting bored as easily. If they are less bored they may chew alot less too, makes sence !

My name is on my last post twice , guess I wasn't paying attention, so I'll skip using it this time, LOL!

Mine have a ceramic bowl they like to potty in. The male always attacks it when we put it back after cleaning haha.

We have 4 colonies right now and only had one baby killer. It was a female that didn't want to share the nest with other litters. We took her pups away and she was fine but she did it again with her next litter so we fed her off.

When we clean cages we put the adults in one cage and the babies in another, put in fresh litter then put the babies in followed by the adults. I've been told that if you give them a hide it reduces stress but ours just pee in them. Also a running wheel really keeps the neurotic/destuctive behavior down. They'll run in that thing day and night.
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http://www.[url ban]/DeguSowce

I agree 100%. I have changed their bedding when they just had them and couldn't believe afterwards they just went nuts killing their babies.

Jason Little

I must just be lucky then. I cleaned again yesterday and don't think I lost any from the litter that was being born during the earlier cleaning. That first line I got (from Dave Tracer) just happens to be fairly biteless and good parents. If I do lose any babies I find them whole and unbitten. The only two things I'm trying to improve by crossing to another line is litter size and adult size. I did have two new tubs of 1.3 each of that original line all have their first litters recently and one was 33 total and the other 35 with one lost after a couple days so they are averaging around 11 for first litters but seem to top out around 14 with 12 more regular. The line I'm crossing with is a little bigger and I've had a first litter of 17 so hopefully I can pick those traits up without loosing the lack of aggression and the good parenting.

yup! just what she or he said

I should also mention they are quite destructive.

Does anyone know the approx. weight of an adult soft fur?

adult big mouse...84 g
adult not huge but pretty big ASFR 84...
wierd...the african looks 50% larger at least....
maybe they ahve hollow bones?...

(kidding)...??....I think
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.....and fried muskrat!!!
mmmmmmmmmm

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thanks jyohe

You must have some real monsters, lol! I weighed several old, retired breeder mice and they were mostly around 40 grams, give or take a little. None hit 60 grams. And I weighed some young adult, just starting to breed (but not retired breeder) ASF rats, and they all weighed 70 - 80 grams, except for one that actually did weigh 83 grams. I am sure some of the big, old breeders would go over that, but I didn't have them handy.

I am lucky enough to have a colony of non-biters, thank goodness. Here is my 2 cents on some of the topics in this thread:

We cleaned them today (what a pile of babies!) and installed some ceramic dog dishes in the corners of a few of the bins to see how it works. We also made some hide boxes a couple of months ago, featuring a framework of scrap 2x4, over which we lay old cardboard. It is interesting to note that the moms with small babies seem to hang out on one side, while the older babies and other adults hang out on the other side. We feed our ASF on Teklad lab blocks, same as our rats. I would like to give them some hamster wheels, but I think the small ones might be too small, and the rat wheels might not fit in my bins. Will have to buy one of each and give it a try.

I really am enjoying these far more than I ever did regular rats or mice.

"I really am enjoying these far more than I ever did regular rats or mice."

ASF’s are addictive. I raise mine in the same heated room with my snakes and I find myself going in to check the rats and then remembering to check the snakes as an afterthought.

Even though these tropical rats have similar heating requirements to a typical snake room background temp I think in the ideal world with unlimited heated space I would keep them separate. With ASF's always present most of my ball pythons now think they are retics on cleaning day and come flying out of the tubs and swipe at the air and any movement. Makes cleaning in a small confined space exciting though.

...I have weighed a few around the 84 gram mark...big girls...
the biggest I ever weighed was 111 grams pregnant....they are just mutt mice...a mix of alot of breeds over the last 20 years almost.....there are alot of pure breeds that weigh more....probably 100 grams average...???

I don't have a scale ,but a friend brings one over from time to time for kicks or to settle confusions of opinions...LOL

....wheels.....I think they are just playgrounds for adults and death beds for children.....legalize yard darts...ban wheels...!!!....we've all seen the poor russian hamster baby rolling around in the wheel while it's mother runs...and runs....(America's Funniest Home Videos"....yea...I know....wheel's stop working when a baby gets it's head stuck in it and dies...

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...JY

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they stink......

.they bite

they grow slow

they have alot of kids every 23 days

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.....and fried muskrat!!!
mmmmmmmmmm

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I kept a colony of these for about half a year or so, found they are useless. They don't stink as much as rats but I don't find rats stink that much as long as the bedding is changed regularly and they are not kept in over crowded conditions. But they have just as much ammonia smell to their urine as female mice so still have to be cleaned as often.

The ones I bought were handled regularly and very friendly and curious and never tried to bite. So they were interesting to have for the time I did have them. However they are far too small in my opinion to be a primary food source for adult ball pythons. Adult ASF rats are only a little bigger than large adult mice (retired breeder mice are probably the same size to be honest). A 3000 gram ball python can easily take medium to large rats...and a ASF will never be bigger than a 8 week old rat, if it even gets that big.

Considering ball pythons could fixate on these things and refuse any other food, I wouldn't recommend getting them at all. There are other ways to reduce smell from rats than ending up having twice or three times as many ASF colonies to make up for the need for multiple adults to feed a 1000g or larger ball python.

Rats breed just as fast and though on average may have a smaller litter size, regular rats will feed all ages of ball pythons. Hatchling ball pythons can be started easily on pinky or even fussy rats.
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PHLdyPayne

Sorry I have to disagree with you on some of this. First off adult ASF rats are at least double the size of a retired mouse, and I find them perfect as they NEVER get to big for me to feed off, I have only balls so 10 inch long rats are useless to me once they are burned out breeders, and they stink to high hell too not as bad as mice but they both reg rats and mice drive my allergies crazy compared to ASF rats..

I also find as long as you don't offer them only the ASF rats they will still eat mice and reg rats.. I only feed them to my own personal snakes just so people don't give me a hard time about the ASF rats as some people are set in stone on the idea that they won't go back to regular prey.. People say the same about Gerbils, and I also disagree there too. If done properly Balls are not premanently imprinted by ASF's or Gerbils in my opinion! Worst case situation scenting a reg rat or mouse with the bedding from a ready to be changed gerbil or ASF cage will fix that problem 95% of the time. In no time they are back to eating mice or reg rats. It's important to remember at times they go off feed for a spell, period, and that has NOTHING to do with what food your feeding them, that's just what balls do at times.

Anthony McCain

weigh an african and a retired mouse....I thought the same thing...till I weighed them...like said in here...both roughly 84 grams.......

I have balls that eat JUST gerbils......JUST chinese hamsters or just mice...period.....

I have some that eat just ONE item...then the next year switch...just one other...wierd....and yes some eat just one item...till they get bred...then it's all items....or two...

I have balls that will eat anything BUT mice or rats...they eat chinese,gerbils,or africans...but not mice and rat...

.....and NO I don't wait to switch them...they eat what they want to here......I breed it all

baby balls...that's a different story./....I gotta sell them...so they get mice or rat....unless they are mine.....anything I sell will eat mice or rat or both....or die.....yes...albino balls don't eat...I keep trying mice and assist till they eat or die.....still got like 4 albinos .....a couple never ate....and the sucky ones are the ones that eat a mouse or three then stop....and don't eat again...period...I hate them ....LOL.........why?....born,shed,eat...one mouse then no more...and yes they will go till they die...they are that stupid.....africans do NOT help here....I have a couple that eat gerbil and one ball that eats deer mice, but NONE started by giving them an african.....and I did try them....(all MY Balls as said...not for sale balls)...

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.....and fried muskrat!!!
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wow this is the biggest thread i ever started! thanks for all the help