Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is anyone keeping these here? I'm aware they are a cross between Banana Cal Kings and Pueblans... Do they stay small like the Pueblan or get a little larger like the King? How about disposition?

They're hybrids, so you'd be better off taking this question to the "hybrid discussion" forum. You'll find that most people here are not in favor of hybrids.

Tim

Funny, allst i put was "sigh" with a frown, and i got booted. LOL. Have you seen these abominations? Someone had them for sale in classifieds and I almost fell over.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

Hybrids? Kings and milks are both Lampropeltis...

Yes....Dobermans and Chihuahuas are both Canus familiaris....but it does not mean that you mix 'em together necessarily.

California kingsnakes and Pueblan milksnakes fall under the Genus -- Lampropeltis, as they are grouped together as such for reasons too numerous to state presently. However further taxonomic description has yielded that these snakes not only LOOK different at first glance but also have characteristics that merit both specific and sub-specific classifications. Moreover, such getula and triangulum come no where near each other, so natural intergrades are not possible. These hybrids are man-made and are frowned upon by many.

I'm not saying for you to not like them, but just emphasizing that it is not possible for these very different snakes to copulate/reproduce in their nature settings.

The other issue is that long-term ramifications affect the integrity of the snakes for hobbyists and collectors (particularly new...) who may "think" they are getting something specific when they may really be not. Although I have not seen it in a while, there used to be frequent posts in a couple colubrid forums asking for identification help or stating that they have this "pure" specimen only to be bombarded by others because it was an obvious hybrid however unbeknownst to the unsuspecting/more novice person who made that purchase.

Imagine having a dream project come to fruition due to your hard work in obtaining specimens that phenotypically (on the exterior) look like your beloved specimens, but then after all this effort the long-awaited babies manifest something "different", only to find out that your beloved snakes were crossed with something many generations prior. I hope you can grasp one example I'm offering.

This subject came up in the kingsnake forum a few months ago and it was a red-hot, stressed out conversation that viewed multiple angles on this subject. You may want to peruse it just for your own reading interest. And, I'm sure, my response may spark something as well. There are two clear camps regarding this, ones that feel unnatural hybridizations are "frankensteins" and that the practice should not be done due to long term consequences in several areas, and there are the others who seemingly enjoy this sort of experimenting and don't feel there is a problem with it. I'm in the former camp/school of thought obviously.

What are your thoughts about it?
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway

I think that a mutant albino is just as bad as a frankenstien hybrid but, where do you draw the line? If people would just label animals correctly, educate people about the animals, and keep the freaks out of the wild it would be great. I mean, I see people breeding locality animals for color and pattern all the time, and they produce really beautifull animals but, generations down the line some of these animals look nothing like the original. Captive breeding as a hole is what it is "CAPTIVE". Most of these snakes are never going to see the wild again. All I'm trying to say is there is a gray area in all of this. Motorized vehicles put more of a dent in wild populations than anything else, I have seen people collecting in areas for years with seemingly little or no effect, I have also seen whole populations of snakes destroyed in ten minutes by bulldoser, or a few years by roadways. for the most part captive breeding is not the problem, hybrid breeding is not the problem, selective breeding is not the problem, habitat destruction IS the problem. Captive animals are pets for the most part. C'mon man you can't compare breeds of dogs to species of snakes. Everyone knows muts make great pets! Sorry for rambling on and on and on and on and on and......................................................................................................................................peace be with you. not everything is black and white. -Jerry

I appreciate your response. I have noticed a lot of controversy over hybrids, but I honestly didn't think of this particular snake as a hybrid until it was mentioned. I had always thought of a hybrid as... woma x ball or something. I realize that isn't a scientific opinion, but it seemed logical at the time.

I can appreciate not wanting to affect the gene pool of a particular animal, but it does make me think about all the selective breeding that is going on, wondering where the line is drawn.

What about snakes that do live in the same region? Would hybridizing them be just as "wrong" because of the effects to the gene pool, or is that invalid because it's possible in nature and could happen naturally anyway? Of course, these are hypothetical questions. I feel like there is nothing wrong with a hybrid in the hands of a responsible keeper... but then I consider that there are many irresponsible keepers...

I'm undecided, overall, because I feel like there are some double-standards involved here.

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"What about snakes that do live in the same region? Would hybridizing them be just as "wrong" because of the effects to the gene pool, or is that invalid because it's possible in nature and could happen naturally anyway?"

Through much of the midwest,kingsnakes and milk snakes have the same range but i dont think they ever inter breed in nature.
I think its fine you have a hybrid. We all have different interests and thats fine.Im glad you bring your questions to this forum so we can teach you the proper way to see things..........ok that was meant to be funny
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"Wake me when its April"
Doug L

"I think its fine you have a hybrid."

Ah, for the record, I don't own one, I was just doing some reading up on them.

"Im glad you bring your questions to this forum so we can teach you the proper way to see things....."

hahaha! Too bad I don't actually own any milks (yet).

Why did you have to put on that record? You know it skips! LOL!!!
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

Hybrids are the crossing of different species. Kings and milks are different species. A dog crossed with a wolf is a hybrid (same genus, different species).

To answer Jerry's question, I've seen these animals advertised, but I've never looked at the pictures - hybrids don't interest me.

I suppose I don't worry about it very much - in 1994 I saw my first "jungle corn." They never caught on. Hybrids as a whole never caught on - for that past 20 years snakes marketed as hybrids made up less than 5% of the reptiles I'd see at shows (and I've been to the biggests shows in the U.S.).

They have never gained "marketshare" as ball pythons, crested geckos, and even reticulated pythons have. My philosophy is that the market will determine if these snakes have a lasting place in the hobby. Based on what I've seen in the last two decades, interest in snakes marketed as hybrids is very low.

Tim

...btw Tim are you the guy that had those real bright syspila ( hypo?) a few years back with pics of mom curled around her eggs??
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"Wake me when its April"
Doug L

Could be. I produced these in 2004.
They are the offspring from a pair of babies I raised that were purchased at the Daytona Expo.
Their parents looked very clean, and many people thought they were hypos, but they were just "extra nice" normals.

Tim

I remember that photo I thought those were so cool. Tim do you still have pics of the adults? btw those snakes are better then hypos in that they still have the nice dark black borders that hypos dont have.
Where are these snakes now?
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"Wake me when its April"
Doug L

I reckon I need to revise my earlier post. What happened was that I bought a pair of babies at the National Expo and the female escaped later that year. Baby red milks are tiny and she was never seen again. I raised the male to adulthood and bred him to an adult female that I purchased from a hobbyist in New York. The female was nowhere near as nice as the male, but all the babies turned out pretty clean.

In Fall of 2004 I said the adult pair to my buddy (and fellow milk snake aficionado) Nathan Wells. This is what the pair looked like at that time:

So the babys all escaped too. That male is outstanding,we need to find Nathen and get the rest of the story.I want to know if he is producing syspila that look like that male.
Thank you Tim
PS, do you live in NY?
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"Wake me when its April"
Doug L

I live in Cleveland. I sold the babies at shows and didn't keep records of who bought them. Nathan posts in this forum regularly.

Tim

.
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"Wake me when its April"
Doug L

That's a practical way of looking at it.

I actually did not realize that dog breeds did not conform to taxonomic classification. That really surprised me.