Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone
Was wondering if I could get insight on the Caramel Albino lines?
How many are there? I know of NERDs line, and the Bell Line. How compatiable are they with each other?

I believe that there is also the Sutherland (TSK) and Malsin lines also. I think the Malsin has some incompatability, but some more seasoned ball breeders should answer that for you.
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Cheers,
Jessica
10.15 Ball Pythons
3.3 Corn Snakes
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
2.2 Jungle Carpet Pythons
0.0.1 Boa Constrictor
3.0 Crazy Dogs
2.0 Cats
Some Tropical Fish
...........and growing!

there is also the crider line. brb has an outstanding caramel import that could be considered a seperate line. the criders ive seen pics of are also incredible. mine is a bell line.
joe

There is also the Upscale line . . . . beautiful colors.

It is my understanding that most are compatible, but I don't know about Malsin (sp?) or Crider.

I'm hoping there will be alot of combos coming out this year with the caramel.
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

I don't have direct info to confirm it but I've heard that the Crider and the ones that are being captive bred in Africa (Noah?) are not compatible with the established caramel lines. If this is the case, I'm not sure those should even be called caramels even though they look similar. They wouldn't really be a new line but rather a new mutation. I don't know if the Crider and CB Africans are compatible with each other but it sounds like all the true caramels are.

true,

VPI-NERD, BHB, TSK, Malsin and Bell to my knowledge are compatible, they better be,
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Randy has been on top of the Caramel "family'" -- as he is with most things genetic. Thanks for being an ever so valuable resource for the many of us that are "wadding" our way through the ball python genetic quicksand. lol

I have heard the same as Randy on the established lines being proven compatable. I will defer to him on the African and the Crider animals. From there looks they might be new morphs rather than new lines. I really do like them -- sweet!!

Below is my Upscale male breeding a Yellow Belly (in shed) my first step toward Caramel Ivories --among other tasty treats!!! After a shed -- I want to EAT HIM -- looks just like candy!!!

I am also crossing my Mojave Het SK Caramel male into Nerd Double Hets for Glow this season. Mixing all 3 lines together is the goal as early as next year.

We all know kinking is a an issue. Some stats that excited me upon hearing were --Doug Beard ( Upscale/Malsin) reports that over his years of Upscale Het to Het breeding he produced 46 Caramels with ONLY 3 having minor kinks. I'll take those odds any day!!!

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Bill Buchman

I was going by the Complete Ball Python manual that states Not all line compatiable.

So with everything said then BEL and NERD can mix.

I'm just repeating what I've read so by no means am I an authority. My total experience with the new mutations is seeing one of the CB African's for about a minute. But it is something I'm interested in and thanks for the stats on the caramel kinking. It will be very interesting and hopefully we'll hear if the low kinking rates follow that line or if maybe it's something that particular breeder is doing different that all caramel breeders should try regardless of lines.

As far as caramels go to me a kink is a kink in my eyes no matter how minor it is, ANY kink regardless of severity is a genetic expression of the obvious genetic defect connected to the caramel strain. If ANY caramel has a kink or many kinks regardless of how little or often it shows up in the offspring then it is a defect within the line, simple as that. This isn't a random event and likely is some sort of recessive gene that can and eventually will occur in most if not all true caramels lines to some degree..

I do think however that with selective breeding via unrelated hets x unrelated hets the defect can be bred out to the point where it hardly ever is a problem. In my opinion the KEY here is to NEVER breed one with a Kink. Responsible dog breeders do NOT breed dogs with genetic defects so why should python breeders think any differently.. Caramels with ANY degree of kinking should either be sold as pets and never bred or in extreme cases they should be properly put down. I intend to put Caramel into a few projects BUT if and when I do it will be done using 2 totally unrelated lines , lines that have very little issues in hopes that the defect won't line back up again in the offspring. I don't want to spend 3 or so years on a project and have babies that are less than perfect.

Ask a dog breeder what happens when you ignore genetic defects , they will tell you in a hurry why it is wrong to keep breeding animals with defects. Sad fact of the matter is that there is money to be made breeding caramels. In my eyes ONLY the flawless caramels or hets from flawless caramels are worth buying/breeding . If other people would just agree that kinked caramels are not worth breeding/buying the problem will go away ALOT faster. Breeding animals with obvious genetic issues only makes more of the problem . Granted you may not see the defect right away but if it's a recessive defect there is still a mathematical probability of any one of the babies carrying the gene for kinking, especially so if the parent caramel has ANY kinks . Greed won't help this problem go away, only responsible selective breeding of non kinked stock will.

Anthony McCain

I agree with Anthony with regards to kinking. I will not breed or sell ANY animals that I produce with any kinking. Therefore, any animals that hatch perfectly will carry a premium value -- whether sold or held back for my breeding projects. Will I be be first breeder not to have kinking -- NOT HARDLY!!!! It is part of working with a recessive morph with UNTAPPED combo potential.

Most likely no amount of out-crossing, low incubation temps, low humidity during incubation, and selective breeding will eliminate kinking.
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Bill Buchman

I have to agree with all that Bill. Especially the fact that the flawless ones will be worth their weight in gold, like you said the combo potential of that morph is insane. I just hope people seriously view the kinking issue as a problem to be concerned about and that people try to breed in a direction that reduces the problem as much as possible by outcrossing the compatible lines as much as you possibly can. EVEN if it means not making as many visual caramels (what REAL value will kinked caramels really have anyway) and making more Poss hets instead of true hets if need be, it simply needs to be done, the sooner the better for everyone.

Anthony McCain

I think it all comes down to what is causing the kinking. If it's a 2nd recessive gene then outbreeding and rigid culling of kinked animals from your breeding program should eventually fix the problem.

However, given the report that half the imported caramels where kinked and that this problem seems not to have been completely eliminated in any collections yet I'm thinking that the tendency to kink may just be part of the caramel mutation. Whatever chemistry change makes the caramel color may also tend to cause kinking. If that is the case it can't be outbred and the best you could hope for through breeding is to accidently find a compensating gene and then you might actually want to inbreed to keep that gene.

The reports of varying kinking percentages from year to year and breeder to breeder offer what might be our best hope. Given that not all caramels are kinked maybe by looking at what is different when low percentages come out kinked vs. when high percentages we might find something that can compensate for the tendency and come close to eliminating kinking in future clutches for the caramel projects already out there. I know people have talked about incubating dry and at the cool end of the temperature range. It also could be that a particular dietary nutrient is needed or should be avoided to compensate for something unique to the caramel mutation (i.e. something it can’t synthesize properly or it can’t break down properly). Hopefully something can be found to save this neat mutation from this problem as otherwise I think it will inevitably be replaced with the new similar looking mutations which are much less established wasting some of the time and money already invested in caramel projects.

Anthony, well said. And like you when some one fixes the defect i will also begin breeding what I think is one of the most beautiful ball morphs ever but until then I will wait.

Carmel Glow!
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1.0 het pied
1.0 sunrise (unproven ball python morph)
2.0 pastel
1.0 spider Het ghost
1.0 normal (rescue as he WAS VERY HUNGRY)
0.1 poss Het albino
0.1 het pied
0.5 Breeder normals
0.1 black pastel (unproven)
0.1 reduced pattern (unproven)
0.1 mojave (best looking one ever! thanks Jeff Luman)
0.1 pastel Het ghost
1.2 red tail boa
1.0 albino Het snow corn
0.1 albino Het snow corn
0.1 snow corn
2.2 felines aka boa food ;o

Brian H
Brianhettinger@hotmail.com