Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am curious everyones opinions/theory's on Axanthics and why they are considered Axanthics? Is there a good explanation as to why they are considered Axanthic?

The Definition in the Barkers Ball Python Book, they give this definition for the term "Anerytheristic"

Anerytheristic-
Having a lack of red pigment and all red markings (Mattison, 1991). A Mutation that can be caused by two seperate defective genes resulting in a lack of red and orange pigment; predominantly marked with greys but also black, brown, or yellow (McEachern, 1991). An apperance that is without red; an apperance usually assumed to be the result of reduced or absent erythophore pigment production in the skin.

Over on the Boa Forum there is a dissucion on Axanthics and Anerytheristics, so I thought I would ask here, Why are Axanthic Ball pythons Axanthics? To play devils advocate here, isn't it true that many Axanthics "Brown out" with age? which you would think would be caused by yellow pigmentation right? isn't it true that the Snow Balls tend to gain yellow pigmentation as they age, wouldn't that contradict the "axanthic" label?

Do you think that they could possibly be actually Anerytheristic instead of Axanthic? They seem to follow the same definition that the Boas use for thier Anerytheristics, The snows are the same as well.

Wouldn't a true axanthic not "brown out", wouldn't a true axanthic when used with an Albino to produce snows wouldn't the snows be pure white? It kind of seems that Axanthics might be actually Anerytheristics, but since Ball pythons don't exhibit any "Visual" Red coloration, they aren't thought of as such. Could red coloration be part of what makes them brown? and just as in Boas when that red coloration is take away it leaves black grey and white, but they still retain yellow and it gets more visual as they age?...what do you think?

I am bored, so I thought I would get a discussion going...

-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Actually Axanthics just lack all yellow pigment. So they can potentially still synthesize the color brown depending on the base coloration.

I kind of look at it like Anerytheristics are black and white while Axanthics are silver and black. They still produce some pigment more than Anerys.

Hope that helps

>>I am curious everyones opinions/theory's on Axanthics and why they are considered Axanthics? Is there a good explanation as to why they are considered Axanthic?
>>
>>The Definition in the Barkers Ball Python Book, they give this definition for the term "Anerytheristic"
>>
>>Anerytheristic-
>>Having a lack of red pigment and all red markings (Mattison, 1991). A Mutation that can be caused by two seperate defective genes resulting in a lack of red and orange pigment; predominantly marked with greys but also black, brown, or yellow (McEachern, 1991). An apperance that is without red; an apperance usually assumed to be the result of reduced or absent erythophore pigment production in the skin.
>>
>>Over on the Boa Forum there is a dissucion on Axanthics and Anerytheristics, so I thought I would ask here, Why are Axanthic Ball pythons Axanthics? To play devils advocate here, isn't it true that many Axanthics "Brown out" with age? which you would think would be caused by yellow pigmentation right? isn't it true that the Snow Balls tend to gain yellow pigmentation as they age, wouldn't that contradict the "axanthic" label?
>>
>>Do you think that they could possibly be actually Anerytheristic instead of Axanthic? They seem to follow the same definition that the Boas use for thier Anerytheristics, The snows are the same as well.
>>
>>Wouldn't a true axanthic not "brown out", wouldn't a true axanthic when used with an Albino to produce snows wouldn't the snows be pure white? It kind of seems that Axanthics might be actually Anerytheristics, but since Ball pythons don't exhibit any "Visual" Red coloration, they aren't thought of as such. Could red coloration be part of what makes them brown? and just as in Boas when that red coloration is take away it leaves black grey and white, but they still retain yellow and it gets more visual as they age?...what do you think?
>>
>>I am bored, so I thought I would get a discussion going...
>>
>>-----
>>Executive Reptiles
>>Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
>>www.executivereptiles.com
-----
John Dague
JD Constriction
www.jdconstriction.com

So is there an explanation as to why a Axanthic Hatchling is Grey/Silver/Black but as it ages it browns out? or why when the Albino gene is entered into the equation that the Snows retain yellow coloration?

From the Barkers Ball Python Book-

"Axanthism"-
Literally "Without Yellow". The absense of yellow or orange color.

So why do Axanthics seem to gain or attain yellow coloration when they shouldn't? If by definition the term axanthic means lacking yellow.

The Snowballs sure do resemble the Snow Boa, but its the Anerytheristic gene that creates the Snow Boa. Why do Snow Balls gain that yellow tint if they are true axanthics?

You mention that Axanthics still can gain other colors, so I am curious when looking at the Snow Boas, if a Snow boa retained a bit of red coloration into adulthood, how could it truely be an Anerytheristic that created it? How could it be an AnerytheristicAmelanistic animal? See what I am saying? To have an AxanthicAmelanistic animal (SnowBall) wouldn't the homozygous specimen be lacking yellow? But snowballs are yellow...Which fits more of the Anerytheristic definition...

I don't know...genetics are interesting...I was just curious how the first people that coined or labeled these ball pythons Axanthic, what was thier reason for doing so, and why are they considered axanthic and not anerytheristic. Obviously all the major players in the ball world consider them axanthic, but I am curious why?
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

you know you make a very good point and actually one that is probably right on. The problem is that until someone spends the money on doing some actual research on what color producing cells are in a ball python it is all just speculation. Hopefully some genetic wiz with money to spare will pick up on our plight in the ball python breeding community and help us out, lol.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

The first one I saw was at Mike Ellards place Burgundy Reptile, I think around 91 give or take a few years. Mike called it anerytheristic. That snake went to Bob Clark in trade for a bunch of adult blue tongue skinks.

I remember asking if he knew of any others I think he said there might have been one more.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile farms Inc.

WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

at what the ball python experts had to say on the subject.
Seems to be rather quiet in their responses.

I was hoping maybe some of the seasoned herpetoculturists would chime in, By the reply from Ernie Eison, it sounds like at one time Axanthics might have been refered to as Anerytheristics....I am curious why they changed it?

Anerytheristic Boas have been around for quite some time, but are there any Axanthic Boas? I have never heard of one...but there could be...
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Part of the reason it is quiet, is that is a common question...for good reason, it is confusing, with the terms appearing to be used randomly or interchangably. Without knowing exactly what biochemical pathway and what chromophores specifically that a particular mutation is effecting, since there are many, many different ways to get the same visual end result, it is a bit of a guessing game based on what is visually seen of the mutant phenotype with reference to the wild type, with reference to the wild type being the key. Erythristic usually refers by definition more to reds, Xanthic to yellows. It seems that generally the refence of the wild type is what dictates the decision as to which term is used, i.e. corn snakes- wild types are mostly red-orange, hence the lack of predominant red results in calling anery, balls reds and yellow, wild types being mostly yellows and browns, leaning on mainly yellow being taken away, so hence called axanthic. If you look at the base colors of the wild type of most if not all snakes in question, the naming of the mutations are in line with what I have just written. How much pigment remains in a particular snow is probably more to do with the resulting visual effect of how much "pigment depletion power" the particular axanthic or anerythristic matation has, which is dependant on the "what and where" its effect is on a particular pathway or set of pathways. Just as you see differing "power" in the different BELs. This is just my personal educated view as a molecular biologist and reptile keeper, I am by no means claiming to be the "know it all" on the subject or even one of "seasoned herptoculturist" so I could be wrong, however some mornings when I try to get out of bed lately I feel quite "seasoned"
-----
Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

"Part of the reason it is quiet, is that is a common question...for good reason, it is confusing, with the terms appearing to be used randomly or interchangably."

Good to know, I didn't realize it was that common of a question, It was just brought up on the Boa Forum, and I had never seen it discussed here before, unlike the "Is this a Yellow Belly" threads...lol

"Without knowing exactly what biochemical pathway and what chromophores specifically that a particular mutation is effecting, since there are many, many different ways to get the same visual end result, it is a bit of a guessing game based on what is visually seen of the mutant phenotype with reference to the wild type, with reference to the wild type being the key. Erythristic usually refers by definition more to reds, Xanthic to yellows.It seems that generally the refence of the wild type is what dictates the decision as to which term is used, i.e. corn snakes- wild types are mostly red-orange, hence the lack of predominant red results in calling anery, balls reds and yellow, wild types being mostly yellows and browns, leaning on mainly yellow being taken away, so hence called axanthic. If you look at the base colors of the wild type of most if not all snakes in question, the naming of the mutations are in line with what I have just written. How much pigment remains in a particular snow is probably more to do with the resulting visual effect of how much "pigment depletion power" the particular axanthic or anerythristic matation has, which is dependant on the "what and where" its effect is on a particular pathway or set of pathways. Just as you see differing "power" in the different BELs. This is just my personal educated view as a molecular biologist and reptile keeper, I am by no means claiming to be the "know it all" on the subject or even one of "seasoned herptoculturist" so I could be wrong, however some mornings when I try to get out of bed lately I feel quite "seasoned"

Interesting, thats about as good as an answer as one could get on the subject, thanks for taking the time to explain it to a layman.
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Sorry, I didn't mean that question is an all to common post here, nor am I one to be sick of seeing the same old questions posted like some anyway, personally I don't believe there is such a thing as a "dumb" or over-asked question. I still believe the best way to smarten ones self up is to ask lots and lots of "dumb" questions, because I've learned (sometimes the hard way) as soon as you think you have it all figured out, you probably don't.
Someday snake genetics will follow the lead of human genetics and entire snake genomes will be sequenced (if some haven't been already), next- which specific sequences code for what, then the how, what, and were effects of a single base pair changes, entire gene sequence deletions, insertions, transposable elements, ect. and then how those mutations effect specific pathways and the interactions of multiple mutations togather, and then perhaps morphs will much more specifically defined, characterized and named, but will that really change how they have come to exsist and what we see with are own eyes? No.
We will just have a little more understanding, but when we can genetically engineer a blue ball python that glows in the dark, then we have accomplished something. Ahhh, I keep having that blue glow in the dark ball python dream
-----
Jeff Benfer
1.0 cinnamon pastel Python regius
1.1 pastel Python regius
1.1 mojave Python regius
0.3 normal Python regius
1.3 Terrapene carolina thriunguis
2.3 Terrapene carolina carolina
4.1 Kinosternon baurii
1.1 Malaclemys terrapin terrapin
2.2 double het albino and anerythristicThamnophis sirtalis parietalis
1.0 anerythristic Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis
2.3 Iowa snow Thamnophis radix
0.2 het Christmas albino Thamnophis radix
1.1 double het cherry erythristic, albino Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 melanistic Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
2.0 66% het snow Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis
1.1 triple heterozygous for amelanistic,carmel, and stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 anerythristic motley Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 butter p.h. stripe Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 carmel stripe p.h. amel Pantherophis guttatus
0.1 amelanistic p.h. carmel,stripe Pantherophis guttatus

Jeff, thanks for your insightful opinion. right or wrong, it makes sense as it applies the hobbyist understanding and naming approach. I like it!