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My 8 year old beardie has been having some problems for some time now. About a month ago, we had a power outage. Being from the northeast, it got Incredibly cold in my reptile room and unfortunately, my husband and i both had to work all day. The power was off for 14 hours....luckily we got it back that night, when most of the state was out for days.
Anyway, my reptile room dropped down to around 50. While most of my herps did well, and the incubator suffered no losses, My rescued Whites tree frog and my elderly beardie were hit pretty bad.
Indie had had a small mass on her rear leg that i assumed was a tumor, although it had been seemingly going away. Due to the cold and stress of the outage, though, it doubled in size. Once i realized it was an abscess (i have worked with rehabing reptiles for years, and am a bit skilled in rudementary vet care) i decided to lance and drain it. The infection was bad, but indie did not struggle, and most of the pus came out all at once. I cleaned the wound with a 50/50 mix of h2o2 and water, put a bit of neosporin on the incisions and bandaged her leg up, so the incisions would stay open. I repeated this process for 4 days. After the seeping had stopped, i let the wound stay open and dry. Then, though, it seemed to become inflamed and the infection came back a bit (no antibiotics...). Now, don't get mad here. Understand that i saved her life as a baby...she is a double amputee and she is missing her tail. I have had an amazing 8 years with her, but i have no car and the nearest decent herp vet is in the next state. Otherwise, she would have gone already....i digress...

So, when the infection came back, i got some chlorohexadine from a friend. I diluted that and flushed out the wounds again. It's 3 days later, and her incisions are necrotic. I was cleaning the area last night and the skin peeled back to the muscle. I am at a major loss right now. I cannot get baytril without a RX. I found a 'reptile food' with 2 types of antibacterial/antibiotic in it and am having it shipped 2 day air.
Here is the other hitch: She is actually eating better than she was when she had the abscess. The infection is gone....but the necrosis is probably way worse....I dont know what to do now. I will keep her hydrated and as long as she is eating i will not worry too much. (thats a lie).
She is bright eyed now and much more aware than before. I have re-covered her wounds with a sterile gauze bandage and neosporin so her muscle won't dry out...i will purchase some saline solution and pedialyte (although she drinks well, i think maybe it wil help her heal better...)
ANY suggestions will help. Please don't tear me down about this. I feel horrible, but i have brought so many animals back to life that should have died...what do you do when a vet isnt an option?

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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

When a vet visit isn't an option at this point for you, you need to send her somewhere where she can get the help she needs. I'd be happy to help, but seem to get flagged when I offer. BC me if you're interested.

Steve

That sucks Jenn. Unfortunately it sounds like Indie is at a point where she really needs vet help, antibiotics etc. I know that most of the vets around here suck compared to out of state, but maybe it would be easier to get a ride to South Gorham - it would be better than nothing.

Good luck!
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

mim, see my post in herp health and breeding. Joeysgreen is helping me a lot... she ate 2 dozen crickets last night and the wounds look better where i cleared out the necrosis.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

Hopefully the hydrotherapy and whatnot helps her.

The stuff you ordered - is it Parazap? I was just reading your other post in regards to the coccidia and i know parazap claims to deal with parasites, so i wasnt sure if this is what you got?

If you are seeing bloody stoo as well and worry about coccidia overload then maybe you could get a fecal to any one of the regular area vets? They should at least be able to diasgnose it, and by calling a reptile vet be able to get the albon dosage to fix that. If she is battling a coccidia overload on top of everything else, getting the numbers down to reasonable levels will go a long way to help her fight this off?

Unfortunately i suspect that even with the debridement and flushing treatment some form of systemic antibiotics are needed. I think someone else mentioned going to a regular vet and having them call a good repilt vet (i.e - not south gorham, lol) for advice. I know your schedule is tough - does Ben ever have days off, that maybe he could bring her for you - with a detailed letter of symptoms from you?

Also, i have mondays off (yay for my work!) and if its really just a matter of transportation i would be willing to come down and pick her up and take her down to NH to my vet for an appointment. You could write all the symptoms and what not and i could just relay the information to Dr. G. He is a great vet, and i know he wouldnt be the type to condescend you for your attempts at home. He helps me with all my resciues and does amazing work. I had a rescue beardie last year who came from that disgusting puppy mill raid in Buxton - this thing was beyond emaciated, septic, loaded with abscesses, loaded with coccidia and pinworms - a total mess. With his help we kept him alive for almost a year, with some huge signs of improvement - in the end, we did lose that battle, the necropsy later showed the severity of the abscesses and the damaging effects of the sepsis. But i digress, my point is that i culd never have been able to keep that dragon going without his constant advice. My favorite thing about him is that he realizes the challenges that come with a busy schedule and how hard it is to travel. Once he had seen captain once i mustve called him a thousand times with updates and we tweaked his treatment plan via the phone - which was SO helpful!

Or if you have another friend who would be willing to help you in that respect, from portland its only a 30-40 minute drive.

Anyway, i think getting a vet to look at her and getting some antibiotics to help out with all of the great care you are giving her now is likely what she needs. I know she isnt a spring chicken anymore, but i know people who own dragons in their teens and older - so i suspect she still has a lot of fight and years left in her if she can get over this most recent challenge!
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

That does suck. i would try to get her to a vet but seeing as it's not an easy thing for you right now maybe you could call the south gorham vet or yarmouth vet and do a phone consult. They may be able to tell you what you can do untill you can get her in. Keep the area clean as best you can. Baytril may or may not not be the best thing for her depending on what kind of abcess/wound it is. Some bactierias dont respond to baytril.
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4.4 ball pythons
3.0 carpet pythons
1.1 columbian red tail boas
0.0.1 mexican boa
1.0 suriname red tail boa
0.1 bull snake
1.1 cal kings
0.0.1 black mexican king
0.0.1 pueblan milk snake
0.1 kenyan sand boa
1.2 bearded dragons
1.5 crested geckos

christina, check out my post in herp health and breeding....
I think she will pull through. Jasin says she's getting old and there isnt much i can do, but i'm not going to lose her.
I am afraid at this point that the *ahem cough* nasty lady at south gorham will persecute me for what i have done for indie so far...that really sucks. She told me that my IGGY needed to be fed differently and she needed to be more humid....even though she was the best looking ig she has seen. Then she charged me $400 for xrays to tell me she was gravid. I really can't take her there...
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

really only have a few choices at this point...watch your dragon die of blood poisoning from the gangrene or drive to the nearest vet to treat with antibiotics and remove the dead skin. In your attempts to drain the abscess yourself it is possible you cut into nerves or tendons or veins which are causing the skin and muscle to die. Or she may just have too much infection in her system.

Given the fact you noticed a lump before the power outage, it is very likely the dragon was fighting infection for a long time and the loss of power stressed her enough to cause it to flare as bad as you indicated. Also, reptile 'pus' isn't always liquid, it can also be a hard mass which won't drain, it will have to be carefully removed surgically or battled with antibiotics.

As for the fortified foods..I really don't like them at all. For one thing, it will mess up effectiveness of antibiotics in the long run (germs and bacteria can mutate and become resistant to antibiotics). Also not all infections are treated by the same antibiotics. Also, the concentration of antibiotics in the food may not even be sufficient to fight even a simple infection. Or they may be too strong and cause more harm than good. It also encourages people not to go to vets for infections when they really should for the benefit of the dragon.

There is also the fact antibiotics do kill good gut flora as well as infections, which can cause other problems, including loss of appetite and promotion of the growth of yellow fungus disease.

Thus, take your dragon to the vet, even if you take him to your nearest Dog/cat vet and bring the phone number of the herp vet in the other state. Some vets are willing to examine and treat herps even if its not their standard 'patient' but having a more experienced vet a phone call way, he can help you out and save a 6 hour drive or how far away the herp vet is.

As it is, I doubt you will get that food before Wednesday and you can only hope she will actually eat the food. Then hope the dosage is enough but not to much..in which case you may end up with a dead dragon in your hands long before the antibiotics in the food even can do anything.
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PHLdyPayne

I have always respected your advice, and i understand your harsh feelings and tone in your message, but understanding my situation is a big part of what is happening now. My bearded means so much to me, and i am doing EVERYTHING in my power as of right now to help her.

If it matters at all, i work 50 hours a week, apprentice at a studio to learn a new trade 20 hours a week, and try to find time to work on my own art, be a good wife, manager, and animal mom a the same time.

All of my energies are going into my bearded that i can expend....i DO NOT get days off. If i could get her to a decent herp vet, She would have been there already. I am currently working on that situation. BUT not having a car, or any personal time to myself is really hindering my motives.

I was not looking for persecution when i posted, although i was ready for it. My animals are cared for in the best way that i can manage. I have taken on probably too much for myself for the greater good of them, however, in time i will be self employed and able to afford to get them to a vet via bus, taxi or plane.
I am appreciative of all of the help i have gotten on this site so far, but please take into account that some of the people that ask for help here arent lazy, or bad people. We are just looking for answers to help our animals until we can find better more appropriate means of doing so.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

There are always ways to get a sick animal to a vet. I am sure you have friends and family, one of them is bound to have a car and with an offer to cover gas, a meal and maybe a bonus (plus providing funds to pay for a vet bill, or have the vet send the bill to your address.) they will take your dragon to the vet for you. You can even call the vet ahead of time and let them know you are sending your friend with your sick beardie etc.

I do hope the methods you are trying to help your dragon work and she's ok and lives several more years in your care. It is obvious to me you do care alot about your animals and I realize my earlier post sounded a bit harsh. Nor did I in any way think you were lazy as lazy people wouldn't have bothered to try what you have tried so far or taken the time to type a detailed accounting of what happened.

The point I wanted to make though, is that some things can't be fixed by the average reptile keeper, even one who knows a few things about medical care for reptiles. Bad abscesses, especially in reptiles, don't drain like they do in mammals. Often the pus is more gel like and won't drain. Not all the infection can be drained or 'washed out' with saline solutions. Dead flesh needs to be cut away with care not to cut tendons or arteries etc. Even being very careful, the tools you have available could simply be insufficient for the task and an accident could cause even more harm. Bad infections will slowly poison the blood...and spread throughout the body. These blood born infections need antibiotics injected into the bloodstream.

These are the points I was trying to explain.
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PHLdyPayne

Did I miss the post where husbandry was laid out?

A lizard can deal with all types of issues with terrific husbandry, but can't deal with the simplest problems with poor husbandry.

I would double check the setup and temps of this animal's setup, be sure to have access to a great basking spot (a solid 130F at least) and while providing a good dark hidespot for dark retreat, I would probably go to 24/7 daytime light and temp with little to no night drop.

I may have missed it, but I didn't catch any current setup or husbandry details, which is a key, key, key detail to the possible success of this animal.

Lacking those details, one can only assume the worst.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

24/7 daylight and temp? wow that flies in the face of reason. Reptiles need a rest period just as humans do.

That is why I specified "providing a good dark hidespot for dark retreat".

The idea is that you avoid a significant night drop, and allow the lizard to access a wide temperature range at any given time of the day or night, as the bio need arises. A proper hide spot still allows for dark peaceful sleep.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Day/Night cycles are important. In hospitals they call it ICU psychosis when patients suffer from the lack of a normal day/night schedule.

You could recommend warmer night temps. But 24/7 lighting has no value and will cause harm.

I am not sure you are following. There is an area of the cage that has lighting. There are areas of the cage that do not. Well made hidespots, burrows, DARK, quiet places to hide and/or sleep. Those two extremes can exist at the same time.

We have hatched thousands of eggs under those conditions.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

There was a point of time in december when out furnace was broken and the temps in my reptile room were a bit lower than normal. When i noticed that she had a small lump on her leg, i becan to run a 75 watt heat emitter with a 150 w day bulb and a 10.0 reptisun (with a cobra heat matt)....she started doin much better, but then the power outage happened.

I have had her for 8 years now, and i have always kept her on clean cage carpet, with multiple hides and basking spots. Husbandry before the drop in temps were no problem.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

Let me point out too, that the flushes of the abscess went well, it was only after i used the chlorahexadine dilute that the flesh around the wounds went necrotic. If it isnt diluted enough it is known for doing that.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

But what are the actual temps?

Even a 5 watt bulb looks "bright", so does a 50 watt, so does a 150 watt, but what are the temps that are produced by that bulb?

There is a significant actual temp difference between the 5 watt, 50 watt and 150 watt. Yet they all look bright : )

Bulb wattages are typically irrelevent, the temperature that the bulb produces is the key.

For a lizard that is already struggling with sickness or infection, temps are more important than ever. Sub-optimal temps will not allow the animal's system to fight back to health.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

at night, the temps are ranging from 74-78. My herp room doesnt drop below 74. During the day, her tank ranges from 84 in the cool end, to 106 in the hot spot. I upped her temps when i noticed her showing signs of sickness....because, as i posted earlier, our furnace was not working until mid december. I acknowladge the fact the beginning of her illness was a husbandry issue. Now that it has been corrected, she is undergoing treatment and hopefully now she will heal. thanks for all the posts.
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"Brains for dinner, brains for lunch. Brains for breakfast, brains for brunch. Brains for every single meal; why can't we have some GUTS?"-Misfits

1.0 ball python- Azazel
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 motley ghost stripe corn- Raven
0.0.1 Yellow phase ATB- Devilin Hisseyes
0.4 leos- Boji, Sanjae, fae and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.1 crested gecko- Jubeh and Inari
0.1 leucistic texas ratsnake-Ojo
1.0 whites tree frog- Sifaka
0.1 Transpecos ratsnake- Cleo
0.1 Senegal chameleon- Ambaji
1.0 Ruthven's X Thaeri king- Kemushi
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
1.0 crown tail betta- Lazarus
1.0 Husband (hes my favorite, but i dont let the 'kids' know that. )

If you have just bumped it "up" to 106, then access to usable hot spot temps definitely hamper your progress towards a healthy animal.

You could get on a much faster track to health, and long term success, with access to a basking spot of 120-130F.

Best of luck with your lizard.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn, You really should say "In my opinion or something" since you are the only person here that supports a basking spot temp. that high. 110-115 may be a better choice. You always have to keep in mind that we are unaware of the posters enclosure size and type. A 130 basking spot will make most enclosures way to hot overall and excessively high temps. causes irreversable neurological problems and then death.

On a previous post I too argued that 130 degrees is way too hot for a dragon to bask at. Simply put, I didn't even know what I was arguing. Robyn is an incredibly smart guy, anyone in these forums would greatly benefit from spending an hour or so to check his FAQ on proexotics.com

I now support that 130 is a great basking temp for a dragon, measured with a temp gun. There is alot of confusion out there with the difference between air and surface temperature. Robyn has been kind enough to explain to me the difference, even after I threw a shallow insult his way

I'll use a 4x2x2 melamine enclosure as my example. Using a half cork log as my elevated bask spot on the warm end I pull surface temps(w/ temp gun) between 135-81 degrees F. There are two female sub-adults that share the cage. They use all of the temps on the warm side, including the hottest areas on top of the cork(130 ). The cool side falls anywhere from 80-70 degrees F, which they us as well. They have a great and useable temp range between 135-70F, all contained in the 4x2x2.

The main key with Robyn's emphasis on a high basking spot is 'access' to a basking spot of 130F.

Too many people post pictures of their enclosures which have very inadequate basking spots. BDLvr has great baskings spots and cage design. It may not look as 'pretty' as others with fake plants and fancy wood basking areas, but his basking areas are multi-tiered and very wide, easy to accommodate not just one but several dragons. Robyn uses stacked layers of basking platforms which allow lizards to basking on different layers and even go into shaded areas which feel secure but still have good basking temps available.

My first bearded dragon cage I had a large wide piece of driftwood for the basking area. I didn't have a temp gun at the time but using a digital thermometer with probe, I was able to get temperatures from the highest level of around 120-125F, the lower sloping areas are more 100-115F and the furthest part of the basking area was 90-100 F. The floor of the cage beside the driftwood was about 80-85F. The cool end dropped to around 70-75F, basically room temperature.

Below is the picture of the old cage. My new cage doesn't have driftwood in it (though I have been wanting to go look for another piece or build a new basking area..as I don't like what i have now) are basically two resin 'stumps' but they are not wide enough for my liking.

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PHLdyPayne

Thanks for the support Kevin, I appreciate your comments.

As for IMO, aren't all the posts IMO? Keepers post all the time about basking spots of 105-115F, and I think those low basking temps are crippling to the long term success of a lizard, but there is no requirement to IMO it : )

I can only share the husbandry that we have used over the last 15 years.

There are assumptions there-

I am assuming that other readers understand the difference between a basking temp and an ambient cage temp. Certainly you don't want the entire cage to be 130F. Nor do you want the entire cage to be 100F. For that matter, you don't want the entire cage to be 84F : )

You want to offer CHOICES, and then read the animal and behavior to give you feedback on those choices.

For daytime temps, a wide temp gradient of 82F to 130F is a terrific start.

Coincidentally, we were filming some video for our site this morning on temps. We are starting to attack our FAQ, making video clips of the most popular questions.

Today's video was on temps and reading them with a Temp Gun. I had a 20 gallon long glass tank setup for lizard babies (monitors, uros, beardeds, etc). A wood basking stack (Retes Stack) on one side, under the basking light, some other hide spots, then a water bowl on the cool side.

I pulled 138F for a peak basking temp at the top of the stack, and showed how the temperature dropped as you went down level by level. Moving to the far side of the tank, I pulled 81F.

A temp gradient of 138F down to 81F, all within 2 linear feet. It is TOTALLY achievable, in actuality, easy to do.

I consider it a basic, beginner accessible setup, there is nothing advanced about it at all. Keepers just need to realise what is possible, then they can simply achieve such a temp gradient in their own setups.

I hope to have the video ready to put up next week!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I am experienced, I am meticulous. I test everything. Somehow my observations and testing disagrees with yours. Regardless.

This is a beginners forum. As stated before most posters don't even understand the difference between a basking spot temp. and an ambient temp. I seem to be the only one that mentions the hot road on an 85 degree day analogy.

Some will misunderstand and create an oven in their enclosure.

I'd rather see a newbie with a 105 degree ambient because he doesn't understand, than a 130 ambient. Sorry but we have to really play down to the least common denominator.

I have a paralyzed dragon. She does fine with a 95-100 basking spot. She eats, poops, and gains weight. She is almost 2. 130 may be great but it's certainly not necessary. Oh, her name is dancer. She is the result of a heartless breeder. I never thought she'd live anywhere near this long.

I too offer a basking temp up to 135 in my dragons enclosures. I use a variation of Robyn's stacks. I have a 5'x30"x30" enclosure with a daytime temp range of 135-80. I achieve these temps using one 50 watt halogen indoor/outdoor floodbulb. 50 watts heats up the whole enclosure!

I can achieve this because I use a solid top enclosure. Screen tops allow for too much heat loss (hot air rises) and you end up fighting an uphill battle.

Hey Robin,

I have a quick question - i can understand how easy it is to provide such a wide range using a sloping basking branch or rock etc. In my beardie tank i have temps at the top of the basking spot that reach 120-125, and that decreases as he goes down the spot, giving him acsess to temps of 95-125 in the basking spot, with a cool side temp of 80-85.

My question is about using the Retes stack though. In my uro tank i use a similar design made out of rocks and peices of slate, it gives him several different secrure hiding spots, and a flat basking rock on top. So, if he is hiding in the lower "slots" he has lower temps, and they increase as he goes up, etc. But - if he acutally wants to bask out in the light, not hide in a crevice then on that stack he has to be at the basking temp, as the lower "slots" are all enclosed and dark. Anyway, my long ramble is just trying to ask - this: although a retes stack type hide provides areas of different temps, doesnt it really only provide one "basking spot" - unless he wants to sit on the edge of it?

Just wondering how your stacks are set up - do they have "ledges" on the different levels, allowing for both hiding AND sunning at the different levels of temps?

Thanks
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

Funny. My point exactly. In nature because of how much UVB the sun provides, dragons need to bask only for short periods of time. But, because UVB in captivity is so far lacking, dragons need to bask for much longer periods of time. Therefore, a basking spot that mimics nature in temperature does not mimic nature in UVB. There's the problem Robyn and his supporters don't address.

Lower the basking temp. and dragons will bask more, thereby increasing their UVB absorption and their overall health.

I really think 130 is just too hot. I would rather see my dragons bask for a couple of hours and then later in the day spend some time on the cool side of the tank, or go back and forth and absorb the uvb that these expensive tubes or bulbs put out that we buy. It just seems like overkill. I have always thought I liked my basking spots on the warmer side, at 110-115, 130 just seems like too much. I also wouldn't want newbies taking that temp,and cooking their dragon. I mean if dragons have been thriving using these basking temps in captivity, and it is more safe especially for a newcomer, why suggest anything else? I can see how an experienced keeper can get away with it, but is it really ideal?

I have been using these temps for as long as I have been keeping(first dragon probably about 13-15 years ago) and breeding dragons(started about 9-10 years ago). There are dragons still around that I raised 10 years ago and had for their first 5 years....using my "crippling low basking temps".........cant be that bad for a dragon.

hmmm - all very interesting feedback you guys, thanks
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

I watched one of my girls bask at 130 for half an hour yesterday. She was glowing after coming down from the bask. The only time I see my dragons "glow" like this is when I bring them outside in the summer. Truly, there is no substitution for the power of the sun. Ask superman!

But what makes them "glow" outside is mostly the UVB of the sun. If you have a multilevel basking area, in most setups the top level is closest to the UVB source, where the UVB is strongest. Each lower level will have less and less UVB rays. If they only bask for 30 minutes, it's just not enough time to absorb the UVB they need. The strongest UVB bulb, puts out less UVB than the sun does in the shade.

In that particular tank I mentioned, she basked at 130 for half an hour. Then she moved to a lower area where surface temps are 90-95 for much of the day. I don't think that her glow was from getting closer to a UVB source, it's from getting closer to the UVA heat source(halogen flood in my case). What Robyn stresses is choices, the ability for them to choose.

130 basking temp makes incredible sense to me (read w/ temp gun).
I take all of my dragons outside in the summer here in IL to bask. They all literally glow when they see the sun. I've had them out on days of 85-90 air temps, I'll bet with a temp gun the concrete has a surface temps of 150 plus at least. The dragons are not harmed in any way, infact I think that it's very stimulating and healthy for them.

All good points but one thing to keep in mind is there is still very much about how reptiles use and react to UVB exposure. Not to mention any real exact measurements on how much UVB exposure they need per day to ensure they produce sufficient amounts of Vitamin D3 to metabolize calcium. Too much UVB could even be harmful to reptiles, definitely certain wave lengths of UVB is harmful to many living creatures, including us. (reason we hear about avoiding high UVB Index during the summer or where high exposure risks are common).

For all we know the UVB provided by standard bulbs now are sufficient...whether the dragon basks in 100F temps or 130F temps for half an hour.

From all the discussion on this topic, it is obvious both methods work. Having access to higher basking temps for shorter times needed for dragons to reach their idea body temps etc. or having access to lower basking temps (but still within the long standing recommended range of 95-115F) and needing to bask for longer periods.

Till more scientific studies have been done to get a much deeper understanding on what levels of UVB reptile need (and most likely different species of reptiles require different amounts) it is hard to say in a captive environment, it is better in the long run to provide hotter basking areas, or lower basking area..encouraging longer basking and thus exposure to the typical levels of UVB produced by current bulbs.

It is also a good idea to remember the natural behaviors of reptiles...most don't like to be exposed any longer than they have to. Thus a hot basking area where they can reach idea temps then move to more sheltered areas to feed and avoid predators is part of most pet reptiles instincts. But running about on the ground or through sparse cover probably doesn't expose them to much higher levels of UVB provided but most cages, as things like plants, wood, rocks, etc all block UVB rays. But, they would also be exposed to much higher levels of UVB when basking, even for a half hour. Our atmosphere does reduce the levels of UVB reaching the ground. UVB in morning evening is much lower than high noon as well as being different as you move away from the equator. UVB also varies per season. (though interestingly enough, the further away from the equator, the overall temp also reduces and you really don't see as many reptiles the further you go. I am sure most if not all the day active reptiles in Canada don't need UVB exposure to produce Vitamin D...most I expect get it from prey.

Typically UVB from the sun ranges from about 20 units to over 200 depending on where and what time of the day and year. There are some good articles about UVB and how it works with reptiles...but none have I found or heard of that actually can say how much UVB a reptile needs to be exposed to daily to enable it to perform all normal biological needs. Also, the way i understand it, reptiles who need UVB exposure to produce D3 can turn off production of D3 naturally once the body has enough...but how much is enough or too much, isn't know.
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PHLdyPayne

Hello,

I don't think PHLdyPayne was at all being disrespectful. In fact, I think that he was trying to help you. Being a person on the outside reading these posts. Please find a way to take the beardie to a vet. If you won't/can't/other, than I wish your beardie luck and I hope she pulls through.