Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In 1991 I decided to breed my Burmese python. I thought about flying to Vietnam to study the breeding habits of wild pythons but I was a paramedic and I could'nt afford to miss work.
So I read a book.
Not just any book, I read," The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas", by Richard Ross. This is the BIBLE of python propogation. I had amazing success. To prove it was no fluke and leaning heavily on my BIBLE. Over the next couple of years I bred Rocks,Retics,Boas,and Yellow Anacondas. I would like to think that after years of practice maybe I could have obtained this knowledge on my own. But why? In other words why would I want to reinvent the wheel everytime I explore an avenue of science. I don't have the time,man power, or resources to do this.
Of course there is bad information out there so you pick and choose where to get your information.
If someone is quoting an EXPERT in the field LISTEN.
Ted Joanen,(I genuflect when I say his name) if you DON"T know his name READ something. Practically singlehandedly has brought the alligator back from the verge of extinction. Not taking anything from McNease, Ferguson,Veliet etc...
In 1969 were you 5 or 6 years old. That was the year Ted Joanen discovered the sex of alligators is temperature dependent. When a name like Graham Webb, Rom Whitaker, Tony Pooley or Peter Brazitis says something about crocodilians YOU LISTEN.
Brian you were'nt arguing with Bill you were arguing with EXPERTS. I've appreciated some of your comments in the past but you are not in this class. I know Bill does'nt think he is either.
The question read "when do most?"
The answer is July. Period.
My friend the FL. gator farmer gathers eggs in the wild then distributes them to licensed FL. gator farmers. This year he collected 22,000. That is thousand !!!!
I ask when they are laid he says early July.
I ask whats the latest they lay he says late July but thats really late.
I've known this guy since '95 and this has always been his job clearly he has collected more gator eggs than ANYONE.
Now do I think they could be laid later in the year, you bet.
But the question was when do most. The normal gator drops her eggs in July.
You got way to personal with Bill. No need for that. I love a good discussion but that was way to personal.
I'm 46 years old I keep about 45 crocodilians,(9 species).
Reptiles are my job also, right now I should probably be building or fixing of feeding or cleaning.(I do educational talks on reptiles)
I appreciate the patience Bill exhibits in dealing with the same questions over and over. Clearly as I have stated I have enjoyed your insights also. D.C.

I was cordial with Bill the entire discussion and he handled himself just fine. He really doesn't need to be defended, but that is your choice. It only got a little hairy when he told me that my data "wasn't so". It happens to be very much so. But to me, that was him being rude to me first. All that is over and behind us all now anyway. And besides, he is a grown man and is perfectly capable of defending himself. Not that any need for defense exists. I never attacked him or insulted him. I merely said I had bred and he had not.

I never once said that ALL books were filled with misinformation. I just stated that many frequently are.

Furthermore, even your statements of when your friend takes eggs from nests in the wild in Florida involve data limited to that state and likely a certain region within that state. By saying this do you imply that all eggs in all wild nests in every state where gators are indigenous are laid at exactly that time? Somehow I would think that times and dates would differ from region to region and state to state. Just as they differ with me. You're right, I shouldn't have generalized based on my non-wild data, and actually that was not my original intention, but neither should you generalize based strictly on Florida data. Actually, my original intention was merely to relate my experiences. It got out of hand.

By the way, 9 species, that's impressive. Would you mind listing them?

>>In 1991 I decided to breed my Burmese python. I thought about flying to Vietnam to study the breeding habits of wild pythons but I was a paramedic and I could'nt afford to miss work.
>>So I read a book.
>>Not just any book, I read," The Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas", by Richard Ross. This is the BIBLE of python propogation. I had amazing success. To prove it was no fluke and leaning heavily on my BIBLE. Over the next couple of years I bred Rocks,Retics,Boas,and Yellow Anacondas. I would like to think that after years of practice maybe I could have obtained this knowledge on my own. But why? In other words why would I want to reinvent the wheel everytime I explore an avenue of science. I don't have the time,man power, or resources to do this.
>>Of course there is bad information out there so you pick and choose where to get your information.
>>If someone is quoting an EXPERT in the field LISTEN.
>>Ted Joanen,(I genuflect when I say his name) if you DON"T know his name READ something. Practically singlehandedly has brought the alligator back from the verge of extinction. Not taking anything from McNease, Ferguson,Veliet etc...
>>In 1969 were you 5 or 6 years old. That was the year Ted Joanen discovered the sex of alligators is temperature dependent. When a name like Graham Webb, Rom Whitaker, Tony Pooley or Peter Brazitis says something about crocodilians YOU LISTEN.
>>Brian you were'nt arguing with Bill you were arguing with EXPERTS. I've appreciated some of your comments in the past but you are not in this class. I know Bill does'nt think he is either.
>>The question read "when do most?"
>>The answer is July. Period.
>>My friend the FL. gator farmer gathers eggs in the wild then distributes them to licensed FL. gator farmers. This year he collected 22,000. That is thousand !!!!
>>I ask when they are laid he says early July.
>>I ask whats the latest they lay he says late July but thats really late.
>>I've known this guy since '95 and this has always been his job clearly he has collected more gator eggs than ANYONE.
>>Now do I think they could be laid later in the year, you bet.
>>But the question was when do most. The normal gator drops her eggs in July.
>>You got way to personal with Bill. No need for that. I love a good discussion but that was way to personal.
>>I'm 46 years old I keep about 45 crocodilians,(9 species).
>> Reptiles are my job also, right now I should probably be building or fixing of feeding or cleaning.(I do educational talks on reptiles)
>>I appreciate the patience Bill exhibits in dealing with the same questions over and over. Clearly as I have stated I have enjoyed your insights also. D.C.
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Brian,

I am with you on that. Nobody was every trying to say that Bill's books are wrong. But he was making everyone else look wrong because of the books. I wasnt trying to start world war 3 with him but he started getting a little childish. I meant the easter bunny thing as a brief joke not anything towards him. But he decided to take it that way. But you are right he handles himself just fine without any help. He has made excellent points in things but has went overboard on others.

Brian
Actually my friend does the whole state of FL, or rather half of it. He leads a team that starts in south FL. and a friend leads a team that starts in the north and they meet somewhere in the middle. Of course this is one state. Of course it is FL. where along with LA. probably 90% of wild gators live but be that as it may it would'nt surprise me if northern populations dropped a little bit later. I'm sure alot of things occur later in the season of northern ranges along with a shortened growth period. My animals:
American crocs
Morelets
Siamese
Niles
New Guineas
Salts
Spectacled caimans
Yacare caimans(subspecies)
Brown cimans(subspecies)
Trigs
Palps
I own gators. But I can't keep them here. I have to have a special permit because they are indigenous to TX. Hopefully this year I can get that permit.
I come from a family of "know-it-alls" my mother tried to nip this in the bud by telling me everyone I meet will know something you don't. She was right. I will listen with an open mind to anyone and certainly have learned from many.
Once again if I seemed defensive about Bill its because I think it's important for information to be given to new keepers. I don't have the time' energy , or patience. But I would still like them to take care of their animals.
Alot of times I'm one lone voice sticking up for the rights of newbies to own crocodilians. While it is a serious committment and several contigencies have to be met , why not? If they're willing to spend the time and money and they have an ALTERNATIVE SOURCE who will take their crocs in the event that they can no longer take care of them. By all means let them have them. I think we can grow with our crocodilians it will be at least 3 years before it is a serious life-threatening animal as opposed to a gaboon that is born being able to kill with one bite. Or even a burm or retic that in a year or two will be able to kill you.
Danny

I must say, it is certainly one that I am envious of as I read it. Hopefully in the years to come I can add to my collection more and have an assortment like that. One of the crocs I most want is the cuban. If I could ever get some of those galloping gators I would be a happy herper. I would also like to have black caimen. Incredible animals. And I think that one of the most beautiful is the orinoco croc. I just love the cream-green colors they sport. Hopefully in a few years when my snake breeding levels out some and I have more time and money to devote towards other things I can begin to work on expanding my crocodilian collection.

Thank you for conceeding that there could be a fluctuation of breeding/laying/hatching dates in different regions. I don't personally know for a fact that there is, but I would assume that there certainly could be.

I don't have anything against Bill. He's a very knowledgable guy and I usually go out of my way to read his posts. But it gets slightly irritating when I can't post something without him posting back that it ain't so. I was really surprised when he didn't contradict what I said about alligator max sizes. I had become so accustomed to him disagreeing with me that I was baffled when he didn't. I figured he was on vacation, lol. And while it's a free country and everyone is entitled to one's opinion, doesn't it seem a little odd when someone ALWAYS contradicts one? I don't think we will ever know why, but for whatever reason, he just doesn't seem to like me and seems to go out of his way to make me appear wrong and full of it as much as is possible. Wouldn't this annoy you? But all things being equal I am over this last debate and am moving on. I don't hold grudges and don't look back.

>>Brian
>>Actually my friend does the whole state of FL, or rather half of it. He leads a team that starts in south FL. and a friend leads a team that starts in the north and they meet somewhere in the middle. Of course this is one state. Of course it is FL. where along with LA. probably 90% of wild gators live but be that as it may it would'nt surprise me if northern populations dropped a little bit later. I'm sure alot of things occur later in the season of northern ranges along with a shortened growth period. My animals:
>>American crocs
>>Morelets
>>Siamese
>>Niles
>>New Guineas
>>Salts
>>Spectacled caimans
>>Yacare caimans(subspecies)
>>Brown cimans(subspecies)
>>Trigs
>>Palps
>>I own gators. But I can't keep them here. I have to have a special permit because they are indigenous to TX. Hopefully this year I can get that permit.
>>I come from a family of "know-it-alls" my mother tried to nip this in the bud by telling me everyone I meet will know something you don't. She was right. I will listen with an open mind to anyone and certainly have learned from many.
>>Once again if I seemed defensive about Bill its because I think it's important for information to be given to new keepers. I don't have the time' energy , or patience. But I would still like them to take care of their animals.
>>Alot of times I'm one lone voice sticking up for the rights of newbies to own crocodilians. While it is a serious committment and several contigencies have to be met , why not? If they're willing to spend the time and money and they have an ALTERNATIVE SOURCE who will take their crocs in the event that they can no longer take care of them. By all means let them have them. I think we can grow with our crocodilians it will be at least 3 years before it is a serious life-threatening animal as opposed to a gaboon that is born being able to kill with one bite. Or even a burm or retic that in a year or two will be able to kill you.
>>Danny
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

.......I don't have anything against Bill. He's a very knowledgable guy and I usually go out of my way to read his posts. But it gets slightly irritating when I can't post something without him posting back that it ain't so. I was really surprised when he didn't contradict what I said about alligator max sizes. I had become so accustomed to him disagreeing with me that I was baffled when he didn't. I figured he was on vacation, lol. And while it's a free country and everyone is entitled to one's opinion, doesn't it seem a little odd when someone ALWAYS contradicts one? I don't think we will ever know why, but for whatever reason, he just doesn't seem to like me and seems to go out of his way to make me appear wrong and full of it as much as is possible. Wouldn't this annoy you? But all things being equal I am over this last debate and am moving on. I don't hold grudges and don't look back.

I just don't understand where you get that from. After I read this, I considered whether I was in fact doing what you acuse me of so I just went back through the entire croc forum (since it's been in this format) and can not find evidence to support what you are saying. The history shows that I have disagreements with you about nesting and duration, the 100% tame gator thing and we each had different opinions about "pet" gators need for rocks in the diet. On that occasion, we each posted an answer to the poster without further discussion. That's it. Please enlighten me if I missed something. You make it sound like I have a personal vendeta against you and nothing could be further from the truth. If you have that perception, maybe you should go back through the records yourself and then please cite the specifics.

It's always very subtle, Bill, as I'm sure you are aware, but it ranges from those things you mentioned, to frequency of feeding, to growth rates, to the amount of protien in trout chow being less than optimum. Which is really a moot point as the amount of food in captivity greatly exceeds any dietary intake in the wild, so any slight deficiencies easily balance out. I mean, how many of us are truly gettin 100% of any of our daily recommended vitamins and nutrients each day? But all things being equal Bill, I would like to forget about these seemingly petty things and just bury the hatchet with you. You have a passion and a love for reptiles and animals in general and that is enough for me. Just please don't tell me that my data is incorrect at least where my personal events and animals are concerned. I am very meticulous about keeping accurate records and being factual. I conceed that your account of "normal hatching ranges" are more accurate for wild populations in most regions of intense study by field herpetologists and that my personal extremes with captive study animals in a controlled environment don't apply to this. Good enough?

>>.......I don't have anything against Bill. He's a very knowledgable guy and I usually go out of my way to read his posts. But it gets slightly irritating when I can't post something without him posting back that it ain't so. I was really surprised when he didn't contradict what I said about alligator max sizes. I had become so accustomed to him disagreeing with me that I was baffled when he didn't. I figured he was on vacation, lol. And while it's a free country and everyone is entitled to one's opinion, doesn't it seem a little odd when someone ALWAYS contradicts one? I don't think we will ever know why, but for whatever reason, he just doesn't seem to like me and seems to go out of his way to make me appear wrong and full of it as much as is possible. Wouldn't this annoy you? But all things being equal I am over this last debate and am moving on. I don't hold grudges and don't look back.
>>
>>I just don't understand where you get that from. After I read this, I considered whether I was in fact doing what you acuse me of so I just went back through the entire croc forum (since it's been in this format) and can not find evidence to support what you are saying. The history shows that I have disagreements with you about nesting and duration, the 100% tame gator thing and we each had different opinions about "pet" gators need for rocks in the diet. On that occasion, we each posted an answer to the poster without further discussion. That's it. Please enlighten me if I missed something. You make it sound like I have a personal vendeta against you and nothing could be further from the truth. If you have that perception, maybe you should go back through the records yourself and then please cite the specifics.
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

Subtle implies to me that you think there is intent to undermine you when all I was doing was offering another opinion. Feeding for example, there is no right or wrong here, just whatever works best for you and yours. I gave the poster another option and did not at any time indicate that your opinion was wrong, I apologize if I wrote in such a way that you felt that way. Burying the hatchet is fine as long as we agree that there is nothing wrong with a mature discussions over disagreements and that offers of alternative options are nothing personal.

Let's move on

Bill

Yes, it did seem that way. But if we are putting this behind us there is no need to go into that any further. I accept your apology and offer one of my own for getting defensive and pushing your buttons in return. It was getting pretty silly.

I agree to keep the discussions non-personal and on a professional level, but please try to not make my advice seem wrong when you post your advice. Deal? And I'll do the same. Unless mine is blatantly wrong and I need to know, of course, lol. In that case I want to be corrected.

>>Subtle implies to me that you think there is intent to undermine you when all I was doing was offering another opinion. Feeding for example, there is no right or wrong here, just whatever works best for you and yours. I gave the poster another option and did not at any time indicate that your opinion was wrong, I apologize if I wrote in such a way that you felt that way. Burying the hatchet is fine as long as we agree that there is nothing wrong with a mature discussions over disagreements and that offers of alternative options are nothing personal.
>>
>>Let's move on
>>
>>Bill
-----
True "power" is not to be found in social or economic placement or stature, which are merely illusory, finite, frail and brief.
True power is to be found in one's sheer will and personal determination to achieve one's goals at ANY cost and at ANY sacrifice.

I thought you were up North, Michigan?
I was curious, are you going to be catching the Hot show in San Antonio this November. If so maybe we could meet up and chat it up or the such..
Xain
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He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave.

Xain
Like Mr. Dieter I'm a TX boy.
I've been to the S.A. show before don't really have any plans...
Let me know what day you're going to be there and I'll meet you.
Danny

Ah, good deal.
I will most likely go both days to get what I want on the first days and to get some deals on the second, and you being there I'm hunting for both neo King cobras and a few corals of any sort I can scrunge up.. Did you happen to see any when you were there?
Xain
-----
He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare not is a slave.

Xain
I'll go on sunday.
The last time I went was 2 years ago and the only cobra I remember was a big Egyptian.
That was 2 years ago.
Danny