Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've noticed since I got my Cali King that he is almost never on the warm side of his enclosure. Is this normal?

I've got an under tank heater and with the colder weather the temperature is roughly only 78 degrees on the warm side of the tank (I've only got one thermometer at the moment, so I can't give a reading on the temperature on the other side of the tank.

Should I do something to provide a beater temperature gradient? He seems pretty content, but the only time I see him over there is when he is roaming the enclosure for one reason or another.

I only ask because I made very sure to provide him the warm side, and he doesn't even use it so I'm feeling a bit confused

Thanks in advance for any help!

What type of thermometer are you using? Does it have a probe that can be placed into the substrate? An undertank heat pad should be able to create higher temperatures than what you are getting.

I wouldn't worry about your snake wanting to be on the cool side. I have several snakes who prefer to spend most of their time on the cool side, except when they are digesting food. I have two that even stay on the cool side after eating. They'll do what they do. I offer them the choice and they make the decision. As long as they seem healthy, I don't stress about it.

I've got a cheapo thermometer, so it is not possible for me to get a decent substrate reading. I've got one of those thermometers that is just stuck on the side of the tank, so it's measuring the air on that side of the enclosure more than anything else.

For about $10 at Walmart or Target you can get a digital indoor/outdoor thermometer with a probe to stick into the substrate. That's the temp that is really important. You may find the substrate temp is way too high and that is why you snake is avoiding that end of the tank. Also for about $10 you can buy a lamp dimmer to control the temp on you under tank heat pad.
indoor/outdoor thermometer

Sounds like it might be too warm in there. I'd rather have it a tad on the cool side than too warm- remember, snakes are ectothermic, and are 100% reliant on the environment in which they live to regulate their body temperatures...

Also, look for an excellent thread by FR (Frank Retes) talking about snakes and temperature gradients, observations in the wild, etc. (actually, read ANYTHING Frank says- the guy is the MAN!!!)

Slide the UTH more toward the edge of the enclosure to move/shrink the heated side of the gradient to cool it off a little as a whole.

Also, get yourself an infra-red temp gun so you can measure the temps of the enclosure's substrate at the warm and cool ends. (as suggested in the other reply) There are several to choose from in the classifieds here on KS, and they are Invaluable!

I keep my kings at 80F on the warm side, and around 68F on the cool side, and do see them bouncing around the temp gradient on a regular basis.

//Todd

I've currently got the UTH as far over to one side of the tank as it will go, so hopefully it's just the fact that my thermometer is measuring the air temperature.

First, the exact tools(thermometer, UTH) do not matter(Think McGiver) You can get the job done in any one of a thousand ways.

First, is the snake feeding? Where does it go after feeding? Normally, a snake will always choose cool when not feeding. Then if cool enough will choose heat after feeding.

But this depends on other conditions as well. Like hiding spots. There should be secure hiding spots on both the hot and cool sides. The reason is, most snakes do not feel comfortable out in the open. They there are other factors like humidity and dehydration. With to low of humidity and related dehydration, a snake will refuse to feed(at any temperature) Then choose the cool side.

Of note, In winter, the temps normally drop and the humidity is normally very low. So such sad cages are tanks with screen tops are DISASTERS. Even turtle people know to cover turtle tanks(turtles in water) in the winter and when expose to air conditioning. As the turtles will dehydrate(turtles in the water)

Why snake folks don't get that is WAY beyond me. Kingsnakes, the subject of this forum, are fossioral, or in the ground, or inside something or another(dead tree, rock crevices, etc) They only come up duing events of higher humidity. Or around water sources, ponds, creeks, streams, lakes, etc, WHICH have a higher humidity around them.

BETTER TOOLS

You mention a stick on thermometer, and a UTH, both are the bottom of the barrel. Cheap and not very good. Do not restrict yourself with poor equipment. There are many better ways to accomplish a better enviornment for your snake. Infra red heat guns are GREAT for understanding cage temps and you can shoot every spot in the cage in a minute. EVEN THE SNAKE. They give temps the snakes actually use. You know, what they are sitting on. You see, air temps are not what snakes understand. THEY ARE NOT IN THE AIR. Or they should not be in the air. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So start over, give more information. Offer details, like what the snake is doing, etc.

ALso understand if the temps are too low, the snake has no choice but to go dormait. IT will do so because the conditions do not support activity. Offer conditions that support activity and the snake will be active.

Yes, its winter, but I just fed bunch of babies and they all ate.

I apologise for being blunt. Its just the way I am. Wait, I wasn't always like this. I am now a product of this enviornment, hmmmmmmmmmm just like the snakes.(think some sort of demented humor) Cheers

First, yes he is eating just fine.

He spends most of his time in a half coconut that I have on the cool side of the cage, however since I introduced him to the aspen bedding he is also spending a lot of time burrowing on the cooler side of the cage (Though there are obvious burrowing entrances on the warm side of the cage.) I've got a tree portion on the warm side of the cage, positioned so that he has sufficiently small space to the point that it should work as a hide space.

After feeding he also went back to his half coconut. I'm considering the possibility of moving the coconut to the warm side of the cage (and the tree portion to the cold), just to see if he likes that hide that much better.

I rather take offense to you attacking my tools. I understand that they are not exactly ideal, however I am also a college student. This is my first snake, and he is but a baby. I'm sure I'll be able to divulge a bit more cash towards his adult enclosure, however for this temporary cage I did not have the money to splurge.

You seem to be very interested in talking about the snake not eating. I would like to point out that there are no clues evident to me that the snake is anything short of healthy. The only concern I have is that he spends a relatively short amount of time on the warm side of the enclosure, and so I wanted the feedback on that.

No offense, but who is offended most. You or your snake, hahahahahaha(sorry this is too easy). The tools you mentioned are very inexpensive and not very accurate or easy to use.

Its not about you. Its about what you could do better or easier if you have better tools. That is, if you want to do better. Others mentioned that those stick on thermos are kinda not so good.

About not feeding, Feeding means a lot. If you mentioned that we would know that temps are warm enough to allow that. But because you do not have the tools to actually measure all areas, We the folks trying to help you do not know what the temps really are.

And you could be right, some individual snakes will choose to use a hide over the right temps. So try putting another one(like the one it likes) on the warm side, as well as the cool side.

Also, you being a college student means absolutely nothing in this conversation. If you are saying your a starving college student, that means a little more. How about an hour less at the bar and buy a heatgun. Hmmmmmmm another bad try at humor.

Please do not be so defensive and think about the snake and not you. I do wish your snake good luck. Cheers

First IF the snakes is eating fine, nothing is broke, the snake is just behaving in a manner we might not expect. That said I would have to ask the following:

What size prey item are you offering? Sub-optimal temps on the cool side may be fine for small prey and this could explain why it is choosing the cool hide.

Second what kind of range are you providing? Here you need to look at surface temps. Move your thermometer around and see what the temp is on the cool side as well as the warm side. Hang it in the cage too to get an average ambient air temp. These don't really matter to the snake however they are a good indication of how much heat loss the cage is experiencing. If you have a hot spot that is 78 but ambient temp is the same as the cool side you're loosing all heat in the cage. Do something to reduce ventilation to a level where some of the heat is retained without stagnating the air. You can do this by covering the whole tank or by putting an additional hide over the hot spot.

Going to go back to prey size and feeding frequency, these are temperature dependant. That is snakes with access to higher temps can eat larger meals and eat them more often. On the other end of the scale where temps are sub-optimal or the snake doesn't feel comfortable utilizing the provided heat your snake may "appear" to be eating fine because it feeds when offered food but it may not be taking in enough calories to support basil metabolism, maintenance and modest growth (keep in mind that reptile grow continually). You're going to have to gauge this for yourself becasue you have all the information but to me a snake not utilizing its heat source is an indication that its not getting enough for proper long-term health.

I'd like to comment on the UTH. Not to make fun of people who use them, because stores push them hard, but UTHs suck! They offer no temperature control and they can overheat creating a burn potential for the animals and a fire hazard in your dorm. Assuming you are using a tank, I'd recommend using lights to heat the cage. To me the ideal set up would be to have two reflectors. One would be a red spot of flood to provide basic background temps and it would operate 24/7. The second would be a white spot run on a timer to provide a daytime boost to background temps. I'd go into wattages but what is appropriate will largely be determined outside factors such as how big is the cage, how cool is the room.......... If the tank is a 10-gallon and your room temp is upper 60s - low 70s two 25-watt bulbs might do as long as you have some thermal mass to absorb and retain some of the heat.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

I've got to second that these aren't very good especially if used as prescribed. Not everyone however, has the funds or need for a non-contact thermometer. I've recommended that beginners simply use the stick on types without sticking them on. Simply lay them in the area or on the surface you want to measure. They aren't accurate to 0.001 degree but they give enough information to note whether you're effectively raising the surface temperatures. Point is you don't need to spend a lot of money to get information if you use your noggin.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

When you say 78 deg on the warm side, do you mean air temp or surface temp? If the surface temp is too high, then the snake will avoid it. With a cold ambient temp, it can take alot of surface temp to generate 78 deg of air temp if the cage is for example a glass tank and screen top.

Problem with undertank heater and wood chip substrate (you may not be using wood chips, I'm using that as an example) is that the surface temp can be high above the heater and cold off of it, rather than a more gradual change. Placing tile and such over the heater creates a "heat mass" which helps distribute the heat better. This is especially true with glass tanks. Also, covering most of the screen top helps alot if that is what you have.
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Mark

as long as you have your temps right and he can go back and forth beetween them he should be fine
temp guns are really handy to, right now im using a ten dollar thermoiter from zilla that has a probe

Yes, I actually am using aspen bedding and a glass tank with a screen top with my undertank heater. I'm going to invest in a better thermometer soon to make sure that the temperature on the surface is adequate for my snake. Just in case it isn't though, you say tile would be a good idea to put on the bottom of the tank under the wood chips? How about perhaps newspaper? Would that distribute it better? I'd think that it may help, so please let me know what you think.

Yep, dry aspen plus screen top in cool dry air means dehydration in the snake. Cover that screen top. Kings live in the ground most of the time. They do not lose much to evaporation there - they are protected against dehydration.

The heat pad adds to the drying out of the snake. So dry air, hot heat pad, low humidity, the snake will likely choose the coolest spot. It will not choose heat if it is too dry.

If you want, a substrate of EcoEarth (any coir fiber works) mixed with a little sand works really well to hold humidity but not be too wet. So now, you'll heat without getting too dry. Or pile some sphagnum moss in there. The type they sell in garden centers is safe, cheap and IMO superior to the stuff sold in pet stores. Tight hides work well too. A tightly coiled snake in a hide spot loses less to evaporation.
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Mark