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maturnal incubation of macklots pythons

brandonReise Jan 14, 2009 04:05 PM

hey guys i have a question.. i have a gravid macklots python thats due to lay probably sometime mid to early February. I would like to go ahead and let her incubate them herself. i have a egg box set up that holds a constant temp of 87 is that to hot? should i drop it a little? i use a A-life thermostat to monitor the temp so bringing it up or down isn't a Issue. also what sort of humidity do i need to be trying to reach? i don't want any mold issues. if anyone has any experience with hatching python eggs using this method i would love hear about some success along with any failures...

here are a few photos of the female.. enjoy




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www.youtube.com/user/MeaninglessEndeavor
the collection..
1.0 Biak Green Tree python
0.0.1 mollucan python
1.0 centrillian carpet python
0.1 Jungle carpet python
1.1 macklots pythons
0.1 nile monitor
and a few random inverts

Replies (11)

Jaykis Jan 14, 2009 09:48 PM

89 degrees is the normal temp for python eggs. A couple degrees lower might make the incubation time a bit longer, but should be fine.
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

brandonReise Jan 15, 2009 04:08 AM

is that the same for letting a female incubate them.. i thought 85 would be a bit more comfortable for her and then she could bump it up a few degrees... idk though.. ive definatly got the incubator up and going just in case..
-----
www.youtube.com/user/MeaninglessEndeavor
the collection..
1.0 Biak Green Tree python
0.0.1 mollucan python
1.0 centrillian carpet python
0.1 Jungle carpet python
1.1 macklots pythons
0.1 nile monitor
and a few random inverts

Jaykis Jan 15, 2009 10:22 AM

The lower the temp for the female, the more work she has to do to raise the temp.
-----
1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

captnemo Jan 15, 2009 01:56 PM

Yet, when allowing the female to maternally incubate, temps in the low to mid 80's will work best (from everything I've heard). RH at 80% or so will also work fine. This allows the snake to adjust the temps and humidity to what works best.

Yasser has been allowing his pythons to maternally incubate for years, and I don't think he even gives them a nest box.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Jaykis Jan 15, 2009 08:24 PM

Mike, I've going to Carlisle...will you be there?
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1.0 Blackheaded pythons
2.4 Woma
3.2 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.3 Bloods
2.2 IJ Carpets
2.0 Coastal Carpets
1.3 Macklotts
1.2 F2 Carpondros
2.0 Jungle Carpet
1.0 Jag IJCP
0.1 Carpondro
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
1.1 Striped Bolivian Boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

captnemo Jan 16, 2009 12:20 PM

I will....look forward to meeting you.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Kelly_Haller Jan 15, 2009 06:55 PM

I have posted this before, but here is my setup. I have been using maternal incubation with virtually all of my python clutches since the late 1970’s and feel that if setup properly, it is as good, or better than artificial incubation. I work mostly with larger species of the genus Python, but have used it with pythons as small as P. regius and Antaresia sp. The keys to success revolve around maintaining consistently high cage humidity, control of proper ambient temps, and proper nest box substrate temps. The main issues involve keeping the humidity up so as not to risk desiccating the eggs, and maintaining the proper temperatures, for if it drops too low, the female will expend an inordinate amount of energy keeping the egg mass at the proper incubating temperature. You want it just a few degrees below the maternal incubation point because she can always raise the egg mass temp., but there is no way for her to lower it if it gets above her maternal incubation point. Additional, non-physiologically thermoregulating species need a remote basking site as well.

A drawback that bothers some breeders is that the female comes off the eggs at hatching with a significant loss of body weight. This essentially prohibits her from being bred the following season in most, but not all cases, and so maternally incubating pythons are typically best bred only every other year. I personally never had a problem with that. Another issue that bothers some is the fact that infertile, decomposing eggs cannot be removed from the egg mass and may cause the death of adjacent eggs. My experience has shown this not to be an issue. I have seen fertile eggs on several occasions hatch successfully when surrounded by several decomposing eggs. In fact I do not recall ever losing an egg due to this issue. Additionally, I have never had any mold issues with this setup.

The middle photo below is of my setup that I have used for almost 30 years with great success. It can be scaled for any python cage size. Thermostatically controlled Flexwatt below the cage, and the interior fluorescent ballast above maintain the proper ambient and nest box temps. The evaporative wick water trays surrounding the nest box maintain humidity levels around 90% at all times. Damp long fiber sphagnum is used in the nest box. The python in the upper photo is one of my P.m. bivittatus taken in the early 1980’s. The lower photos are of one of my Sri Lanka molurus or P.m. “pimbura”. Ambient and nest box temps, and cage humidity are monitored several times per day. Intra-coil temps are taken every few days as well. Good luck with her.

Kelly

brandonReise Jan 19, 2009 02:37 PM

thank you very much for such a detailed response. i really appreciate it and will definatly be adjusting a few things in my set up..

one question. how damp do you keep the substrate that the eggs are on? do you moisten it? or keep it dry to prevent mold issues
-----
www.youtube.com/user/MeaninglessEndeavor
the collection..
1.0 Biak Green Tree python
0.0.1 mollucan python
1.0 centrillian carpet python
0.1 Jungle carpet python
1.1 macklots pythons
0.1 nile monitor
and a few random inverts

Kelly_Haller Jan 23, 2009 12:18 AM

I keep the long fiber spagnum in the nest box damp, but not soaking wet. Spagnum has a natural ability to inhibit mold growth, and as long as it is not soaking wet, I have never seen it grow mold. This is even with a constant cage humidity of 90%.

Kelly

bwaffa Jan 20, 2009 05:40 PM

Kelly,

I hear of people maternally incubating from time to time, but I've never encountered someone who sticks to the method so faithfully. Are there other reasons you prefer to go this route? Do you never lose hatchlings to mom crushing them? Thanks for the info!

Brad
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http://www.waffahousereptiles.com

Kelly_Haller Jan 23, 2009 12:53 AM

I have always thought that there was more to the incubation process when done naturally by the female than just keeping the eggs at a constant assumed temp in an incubator. Van Mierop did the first detailed study of maternal python incubation in the mid 1970's and has done others since. He showed that the female does vary the incubation temp in a set pattern through the incubation period, and there are probably other types of variations as well that are unknown. I just believe it is a more natural process if the female is allowed to incubate the eggs as these animals have evolved to do so over millions of years. I have had as much hatching success as any of the most advanced incubators, as the females obviously know more about this than we ever can. As long as the environmental conditions can be relatively closely matched with the females native seasonal habitat, there is little possibility of a problem. It does require more work and planning, but the rewards of being able to observe this process are great.

I have yet to lose any young pythons after hatching due to being crushed by the female. I do try to remove the female as soon as the first eggs start pipping. However, I have lost a very few young that were unable to slit the egg shell and did appear to have subsequently died. I am one of the few who do not believe in manually pipping the eggs when the first start to hatch. I feel that if the neonate is unable to pip the shell on it's own, then it would obviously not have made it in the wild. Manually pipping would be unnatural interference in the process and I am willing to accept the fact that a few are not fit enough to remove themselves from the egg. I am not saying my way is the correct way by any means, but it is just the way I believe in. I completely understand and have no problem with the reasoning behind manually pipping and insuring a higher survival rate, I just don't prescribe to it myself.

If you do go for maternal incubation, just remember the key is maintaining the proper cage environment throughout the incubation period.

Kelly

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