Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a beardie i bought from petco for my son's b'day - depending on how old he was when i got him - i estimate him about 31/2 -4 months old that is based on if he was 6-8 weeks at the pet store - i suspect he wasn't hardly that old - i have read MUCH - his environment is in line with all the shared opinions concerning key husbandry items - my question is related to his size and eating habits - he is cirrently 6 inches long which is much smaller than many dragons fro sale on line that are much younger - i inquired with one company fire and ice dragons with a similar question - they only said that pet store dragons generally don't do well - that may be but i have him and love him so i'm trying to make the best of it - he eats on average 4 -6 small crickets a a day - he has eaten as high as 18 one day and ten or twelve on other days - he shows no interest at all in greens - i am just concerned - he receives plenty of care and supervision - his day light for heat IS red - some believe that he doesn't see red and that a clear version would stimulate him more - i'm gonna try that starting this saturday - he does have quality uvb - again his environment is to the tee-i welcome any info concerning what his size should be and what he should be heating - note that he is very healthy, easy to handle - he seems fine - just trying to learn and want the best for him - th'x

Dragons grow at different rates. I wouldn't worry too much if your husbandry is as good as you say.

I got a little dragon years ago. She was 4 and 1/2 inches long and I was told by the people that she was months old. I cared for her for 7 weeks and in that time she only grew a 1/2 inch. The people took her back and then she returned here for good 2 months later. When I got her back she was about 6 1/2, then all of a sudden she started to grow like crazy. Today at 4 years old she is 22" long and just about weighs 800 grams. She lays an amazing 200 eggs a year.

Anyway, my thoughts are pitch the red bulb. Use a bulb that gives you a basking temp. of 110-115. Generally a spot bulb in a hood (clamp lamp) is the best plan. Reptiles need bright enclosures to stimulate activity and eating. The ambient on the the hot side should be in the high 80's. Don't guess or use stick on or dial thermometers. Get a couple digital thermometers, 1 with a probe you can lay on the basking spot. In the old days I used to put a floor lamp next to an enclosure and then clamp a light to it. To get the basking spot cooler I slid it higher on the floor lamp. Obviously lower (closer) made it cooler. You could also use a dimmer switch for adjustment. The cool side should be 75-80 ambient. A basking spot temp. is a surface temp. Much like how hot a road gets in the sun on an 85 degree day. The 85 is the ambient the temp of the road is the basking spot.

Lights should be one 14 hours and off 10. Use a timer for consistancy.

You should also be supplementing. Live food should be dusted with calcium with no phosphorus or vitamin A every meal but one that should be dusted with a multi vitamin. I feel RepCal is best. I use an old juice pitcher, sprinkle the crix. and then swish them around to coat.

Also this time of year make sure he/she is hydrated. Drip water on his/her nose with an eyedropper until he/she no longer laps it up. Getting your dragon used to drinking like this will also make life easier in the future when hydration is needed.

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about the salad. They don't eat much when their young, but it's best to always have it there for them. I start mine with Mustard Greens mixed with Dandelion or Romaine.

As BDLvr says, dont worry about the salad - they will start eating that with time.

However, only eating 4-6 crickets a day is really not a lot. Although all dragons are different and grow at different rates, that is still an awfully small amount of crickets.

I suspect that getting rid of the red light will help a lot. Beardies need a triad of bright white light, heat, and uvb in order to properly function and metabolize calcium etc. Make sure your temps are nice and hot (110-115 - measured witha digital thermometer)

Also, make sure that your UVB light is a good quality one (Im sorry if you already mentioned the brand) there are a lot of brands of bulbd out there that are pretty much junk! The Repti-sun 10.0 is a good one, for the fluorescent variety. Any UVB bulb by ESU is junk.

Make sure that your UVB bulb has no plastic between the bulb and the dragon, and if possible try to eliminate screen from being in the way too. The finer the screen the more UVB it will block.

Since your dragon is not yet eating his greens he will benefit from a light misting (of the dragon itself, not the entire cage) daily. This will help keep him hydrated.

You didnt mention if you were holding him a lot or not, if you are handling a lot i would stop doing any handling until he is eating well.

Hopefully with a new light your beardies appetite will perk up.

On a side note - getting a fecal checked at the vet is a good idea, as parasites could cause inappetance as well.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

th'x - i feel better - my enclosure is top notch - i took a china cabinet and converted it - is is in line with cages that sell for thousands - i will switch to the clear light - the beardie has access to temps as high as 120 at the highest basking spot - the bottom of the enclosure gets down to around 72 at night at the sand - he usually spends most time basking on the second tier which is around 85 - he usually sleeps at night either on the middle tier spot or at the bottom on a perch then gradually moves up closer to the heat as the day progresses - sometimes he will attack the crickets with a fervor and then at times he seems a little less interested - there have been days where ibelieve he never left the bottom sleeping spot - i do drip the water on his nose a couple times a week and sometomes he will lick for 10 or 15 minutes - he doesnt mind a lukewarm bath on occasion too bad but after it will always go right to the top _to warm up i guess - have to admit, i have only fed dusted crickets twice and no supplements - i feel better about what you said and will implement the things i am not doing that you suggested right away - what are your feelins on other feed - ie. worms etc.?? -and most of all - thanks

How big is this converted china cabinet? It sounds like it is probably beautiful. Im just wondering if maybe it is too big, or if too much is going on for a small dragon at 6" I think you said? I have always found with younger dragons it to be best when keeping it simple. Warm, bright, and simple. At that size a 10 or even 20 gallon tank would work. I would cover 3 sides with white posterboard and get some good warmth and light on it. I would use just one basking rock, brick, platform or whatever and thats it.

Along with everything else that was suggested, its only a possibility.
chris

cabinet is 12 inches deep_a little shallow for an adult i know but i used what i had - it is 36inches wide and 48 inches tall - it has a small shelf on each tier and a limb that lets him get from the bottom to each level - he can literally climb - i know it is said they are realyy not climbers because of their being ground dwellers but some feel that once he learns there are no predators - he's ok with climbing - at any rate - he has easy access to any temp from 70 at sand at bottom to 120 at highest basking spot - he usually basks about middleways at about 80 -90 degrees - sometimes he sleeps there when the light goes out - i am on a timer and sometimes he sleeps on the knob of a 12-14 inch decorative giraffe scultpture in the bottom corner - he will run up its neck and lay his cjin on the knob of the giraffe and hold each "hand" on the sides of the knob - he seems to be completely comfortable in his environment - sometimes when he is hungrty??? he will stand and look out at me to feed him - when he hears me rattle the cricket cage - he becomes alert and comes right down and takes the crickets from the sand floor - i eally believe he is doing well - just trying to learn and was concerned about his growth

TO be honest, the height is wasted. Also, because its so high, he isn't likely being exposed to sufficient levels of UVB, especially if you are using the florescent tube style. At most, a 10.0 rated UVB tube pushes UVB about 20" inches into the cage, if there is no screen or glass or anything between it and the interior of the cage. So, is your dragon only stays in the mid point...even if the florescent fixture is mounted inside, he is outside the range of good UVB exposure.

Your cage design is perfect for arboreal lizards, but not for a mostly ground dwelling lizard like a bearded dragon. They can climb but for the post part being in a cage no more than 24" high is best.

Sand is also a poor choice of substrate for a bearded dragon who is so small. Sand should only be used with dragons over 10" (even 14" as it has a much higher risk to cause impaction in younger dragons than older. (assuming this is children's washed playsand..not calcium based sand. Calcium based sand should never be used as its a waste of money and has a much higher risk to cause impaction, among other problems.)

Having to climb so far and so high to reach the correct basking temperatures and food, is making things more difficult for your dragon than needed. It is best to get him a basic 20 or 35 gal long tank (or equivalent sized clear plastic tub could be used, if cost is an issue) and use a clamp light with a regular household style bulb (not red or any other color other than clear or white) with either a regular household bulb, flood or spot light (though floods are best), and a UVB florescent tube (Zoo Med or Exo-terre models are great, of either 8.0 or 10.0)

If you really want to keep the china cabinet cage, place a solid level about the middle of the cage, so it has two roughly 3'x2'x1' sections. This will due till your dragon is about 10-12" long then you will need to; move him into a larger cage, at least 4'x2' of floor space..height 2' or less (but no less than 16"

As for his food intake. How often are you feeding him? Just once or twice a day or more often? Young dragons should be fed insects of the appropriate size (no meal worms) 2-4 times a day. The younger the dragon the more often food should be offered. For the first 8 months they should have at least two feedings of insects a day. Offer insects each feeding for about 10 minutes, a little at a time...so he doesn't get overwhelmed by crickets (or giving crickets time to run and hide before the dragon can catch them).

Unfortunately a pretty looking cage doesn't mean it is the best cage for your dragon. The most important thing a cage has to do, is provide the best environment for the dragon to thrive...then we can make it more aesthetically appearing to suit our tastes.
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PHLdyPayne

At his size/age I'd stick with crickets. They are easiest to gut load (important!) Flukers sells a grain gut load in pet stores. Use that and some apples for moisture. Let the crickets eat the gutload and apples for at least 24 hours before feeding them to your dragon. Much of the nutrition comes from what is in the crickets stomach. I'm using gutload from progeckos.com right now but it's only sold in bulk.

You need to be more specific on your UVB source. UVB penetration is different depending on the bulb you are using. With a tall enclosure no usable UVB may be reaching your dragon.

I agree with the above posters - i think your tank may be inappropriate for him currently.

The height is probably an issue - having to climb so high to get to the basking spot and then back down again to feed is a hassle for him, and if you dont have basking branches up at the tippy top (and if he isnt using them) then he isnt getting proper UVB.

If you want to keep using the tank you are using i would go with LadyPh's suggestion and halve the height.

However, you may find you have more sucess with a smaller tank. Dragons as small as yours do well started in a 20g long tank, and moved up as they grow. They do better with a smaller, more secure space - it makes them more comfortable and they are more apt to hunt avidly, etc.

Crickets are a great feeder at this age - mostly because once they are well adjusted they eat SO many feeders, its cheaper to feed crickets! Other options are small roaches or silkworms. I raised my older beardie on just crickets as a baby (with a varied diet as an adult), my younger dragon is fed mostly crickets, but also gets silkworms and roaches (since i already keep and breed roaches for my other herps, and often have silkies on hand as well). But, due to the sheer number of insects he plows through every day its more cost effective to mainly offer crickets.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

the uvb is plenty close to his favorite spot - i did take the cover off ot today and installed the clear bulb - there is a change in his demeanor already - i have a dome lamp - 250 watt clear in the top of the cage that gives him literally his choice from 125 or so down to 72 at the bottom - i can't imagine him being too bothered by climbing to his choice spot - he seems to e njoy it - i do enjoy your advice - the sand is vitasand by zoomed - i spent hours studying this subject and know there is a risk but at this point i just don't believe its an issue - too many people are having success with it - in their homeland - they live on sand - he is fed on most days twice a day - iplan on moving that to 3times a day - keep it coming - im learning

the uvb is 7.5% and his favorite spot has him plenty close to it - i hear everyone about the height - i was limited by floor space, finances, and the knowledge of what he would need when grown - i know it is not the best set up but it is a quality environment - i just have a hard time believing the climbing is a stress for him - he really does seem to enjoy it - ???

Actually they don't live on sand, they live on soil. "Sand", as is most commonly used, is like a sand dune, and they don't live in sand dunes.

A good Bearded soil would have sand content, but looking at it, it would look like soil/dirt.

As for height in a cage, a perching height would be silly, but terrain elevation would be useful and accessible. Hard to do more than a couple of feet within a four ft cage, but in larger setups, there are possibilities there.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

i do appreciate the input and love the dialogue and varying opinions and thought - keep it coming - i guess - i just figured sand - australia - right?? - all posts appreciated -will let you know how the light effects him -

in checking - i do have the esu bulb - hey - i'm learning - i'll get it replaced - surely somebody sells a good bulb that will fot my fixture

People always assume that beardies live in a desert like the sahara, with vast flowing loose sand - which is not true. They come from areas thats more soily, hard packed - not big sand dunes.

Playsand, or vita-sand is not "natural" - and as far as saying that they eat on it in the wild...well honestly thats not a very good train of thought to use. How many baby beardies do you think actually make it to be adults in the wild?

Keepers and breeders who have been working with beardies for years and years generally agree that beardies under 1 year of age should be kept on a solid substrate such as paper, tile, or shelf liner. While some breeders do keep babies on sand from a very young age, you must remember that these breeders have a lot more experience with beardies and are better skilled at monitoring their health and noticing any problems early, as well as perfecting husbandry (impaction is not just caused by substrate, husbandry factors play heavily into it) for people who are less experienced with beardies its much safer and wiser to use a non particulate substrate until the drasgon is old enough for sand.

Good call on the UVB bulb - defintely pitch the ESU. If you want to go with a fluorescent tube variety, go with the Repti-sun 10.0 - the tube, not the coil.

Im glad he is feeling perkier with the new heat bulb.
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1.1 Bearded Dragons
2.2 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Uromastyx (Mali)
1.1 Corn snakes
0.1 Mexican Black Kingsnake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
1.0 Rosy Boa
1.1 Green Anoles
1.1 House Geckos
0.0.2 Flying Geckos
0.0.1 Red Eye Tree Frog

th'x again

Vita sand is not safe for young dragons. Dragons wont' drop dead on it and they can live on it with no problems. The thing is, if the vita sand is ingested, either accidentally or intentionally, it can cause impaction, reduce the acidity of the stomach, slowing digestion, it clumps up in the digestive track and as more is taking into the body, the higher chance it blocks the smaller intestines or fills up the bowel and then cause problems over time.

It may take 6 months to ingest enough calcium sand to kill a dragon, or 6 years...they may die of old age before its a serious problem. The thing is, it can also kill them very fast too..if your dragon happens to be the sort who likes to eat sand. Being calcium based, instinct may prompt your dragon to eat more of it, to get calcium or other minerals it is lacking in its diet...but because its far to coarse for proper digestion...it won't benefit your dragon at all. It just doesn't stay in the digestive tract long enough for the calcium to be absorbed. Calcium powder used to dust crickets is a billion times finer and can be absorbed as is. Calcium sand (there are many different brands of calcium sand, vita-sand is one kind...I just lump them all under the name 'calcium sand' its easier.) is too coarse.

As pointed out, bearded dragons don't live on beaches. They live in semi-arid to forested areas of Australia. There is all kinds of vegetation and trees..so they do climb but are not arboreal by nature. They will take advantage of high perches but providing tall enclosures in captivity...is wasteful.

Bearded dragons don't have 'favorite' perches..they go to the places they need to go that meets their biological needs. The only reason your dragon climbs 3 feet to get to a certain basking spot is because that is where he needs to be. He will be just as likely to use it if that same spot was 2' lower as long as it reaches the temperature he needs.

It is good you at least changed the red light to a regular white light bulb (or clear bulb) but to provide the best enclosure for your dragon, you will have to change what you have. In the long run you still have to get a larger more suited cage irregardless. Even if you only have room for a 3'x12"x4'cage..you can still provide a far better enclosure than what you have now. For a baby, it is far better to reduce the height by 2' and just have the 3'x 12" x 2' cage. It will be much easier for your dragon to have less of a climb to get to optimal basking temperatures without the excessive work of climbing so high to reach it.

My recommendation is to get rid of the vita-sand, use just paper towel for now. Or at least a colored plastic table cloth or shelf liner (non stick) if plain white doesn't appeal to you. If the change in light intensity has him eating and growing, then good, leave things as they are for now. But definitely start planning on building a larger more suitable cage to be his permanent home. It should at least be 4'x2' of floor space, max height of 2' (the cage can be on a table or have shelves designed to go underneath, if you want it higher off the floor). If length is a major problem (if your home has nowhere a 4' long cage can fit) 3'x3' (lxw) will serve just as well, basically you do want at least 8 square feet of floor space.

I do understand the current recession in the US affects many people and fiances are tight for many people. But just like with any other pet, owning one is a huge responsibility. Like a human child, pet animals rely on us to provide all they require to survive. I know many people will feel that children and pets are like comparing apples and oranges..which I know...its the responsibility of providing for the proper care..which is the same for both that I am referring to. If the minimum conditions a pet needs to survive are not met, it cannot survive, or it barely survives. But unlike a child, an animal can't tell you its hungry, cold, too hot, thirsty etc. Reptiles are even more difficult to tell if they are suffering as most don't make any sounds. A dog will whimper if he hurts or is distress. A bearded dragon can't. Thus, we have to learn how to recognize the signals they do give. Lack of appetite is a big sign something is wrong. In your case it may simply be due to inadequate light intensity. But if it continues to not eat well or gets worse...then you will have to completely reassess the cage you have and make the necessary changes.

Reptile care isn't set in stone, there are always many different methods to use. The tried and true methods are typically what is listed consistently here and in many other places. Adult cages, minimum size of 4'x2'x2', papertowel, newsprint, non stick shelf liner or plastic table cloth (tile is another one) for substrate for baby dragons at least, though can be used the entire life of the dragon. Children's washed play sand and soil are best for sub-adult to adult dragons, for those who want a 'natural' setup. You won't find anything saying heights over 24" is suitable for bearded dragons. They need the floor space more than height to be active and healthy. The narrowness of your cage makes it unsuitable for an adult cage, even if you laid it down on its side, to use the 4' of height as length instead.
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PHLdyPayne

Just get a better light source and make sure where he is basking is at the right temp which shold be 105. After the light goes out it can get down to the 60's and be ok. I bought a little guy from a petsmart and he was fine in sand. They are hardy and its easy to tell what works. If your doing everything right they eat a lot and hang in the sun most of the day but do move around. Mist him a couple times a week if he drinks then keep going till he stops if not only a little mist is fine. My baby dragon always had small meal worms in his cage and i fed him a couple crickets twice a day until he was larger and then went down to once a day. We have a problem in Michigan with meal worms you cannot get the larger ones. So Now I just make sure he get enough crickets and he is very happy. Just make sure the temp is right and when very small make sure he doesn't have to work so hard to get to the warmth. Like I said if he isn't basking at 105 then its not right. Hopefully that help but in the end it seems like you do what works for you.

th'x

th'x for your time and help