Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are some more photos of my pair of trigonatus. I apologize that I've done it in so many posts, but I've tried to post multiple photos outlined in the Tools and Toys without success. Enjoy.

Matt

The female...

Closeup of the males head.

Closeup of the females head.

In 2004 with a snack (female).

Female again. I should also mention, this pair is no longer living in the enclosure you can vaguely see from these pictures. They're both in an enclosure somewhat similar to my dwarf crocodiles, only it measures 12X6X4, half land and half water. The male spends much of his time under a big stump I placed around a foot above the soil and the female tends to move around a lot more; she'll even bask from time to time, splayed out like an alligator. Of the crocodilians I have worked with and restrained by myself (the largest being alligators, nile crocs and spectacled caiman, all around the 5 foot mark), the female trigonatus is by far the biggest handful. The dwarf crocodile is a second close.

Matt

Matt
Nice enclosures and good looking animals. Know what you mean by being a handful. One of the scariest crocs I ever had. A 56 inch male trig. He was nasty, lightening quick and had the most wicked dentition. He had this amazing growl. When I had to hold him he would really struggle the scutes on his neck were so big and sharp they would cut my hands.
I once took him to the vet he was making a different noise and I was worried a bone was lodged in his throat. After the xray I am putting him back in his tote. Which is on the table waist high. I didn't want to "throw" him in the tote but it was so high I couln't see inside. Knowing how fast he was against my better judgement I ease him into the tote releasing him like he was an injured kitten.
Naturally he 180ed me and caught the side of my wrist. The vet is laughing his wife is screaming and I'm just bleeding.
For his size unquestionably scariest croc I've ever owned.
That is why I get so frustrated with this forum and people who want a dwarf species "because they don't get so big". So many times I hear "I have a 3 foot gator but I know he is going to get to big so I'm going to get a dwarf." I tell people the difference between a 3 foot gator and a 3 foot dwarf is like fighting a short(5foot) man as opposed to fighting a big(5foot) 5th grader. And being smaller they are able to 180 you when other animals have become to big and hefty for such an athletic move. And probably the dumbest varible of all. Your own mind. In your own mind you know better but since it is "small" you try and handle it yourself. Noone would expect you to move a 8 foot Nile or a 10 foot Salt by yourself but surely you can move a little 5 foot dwarf caiman by yourself.
Be careful dude those are some scary crocs. Gotta love 'em.
Danny

I agree with you 100%. I haven't received any bites from these 2 but have had a couple of close calls.. Once, after having my hands also cut from the osteoderms, I thought I'd try gloves, which caused my grip to be a little more loose on the caiman.. I had a towel on the females head and went to remove it with my right hand and she struck sideways with a burst of energy, grabbed the side of the glove and I felt the pinch in my finger but wasn't hit by any teeth. I would in no way what so ever try to move these guys or the Osteolaemus without having their mouths taped shut. They can almost reach their heads back and grab your hand if its holding onto their tails if your grasp is not tight and arms held firm. A 56" male such as yours would definitely require 2 people at least to tackle. I can definitely appreciate your frustration with seeing so much interest in the dwarf species. Alligators are fairly placid usually and larger spectacleds are even easier to work with compared with the trigs. I see tons of baby palpebrosus and trigonatus (even spectacleds for that matter) advertised for sale here in Ontario, but it is VERY rare that you will meet a person keeping one that has outgrown a 100 gallon aquarium. One bite even from a juvenile and the animal is discarded. Another peeve of mine (which I'm sure is a very common feeling) are those who inquire about how to tame their caiman or alligator. What happened to your big male?

Matt

Well Matt that is a little bit of a mystery.
When I first started traveling in the summers about nine years ago, I didn't realize the best person to watch my "at home"collection was my wife.
So I had a young friend,very strong and handy, and an older friend, about my age, I felt that the 2 of them together should be able to handle the crocs. My rabbit breeder takes care of the snakes and he always has help. He is an animal person and also very powerful but like the other 2 friends he is NOT a reptile guy. But being an animal person he was very good about shutting doors and checking and rechecking latches. The only problem the rabbit breeder has had is leaving an animal in a cage with a pissed off python that is not going to eat. This is not the end of the world as my wife would always check after he left to see if all the cages were closed. She would see the rabbit and retreive it later once the snake had calmed down. The downside to this is she is a vegetarian so karma...blah blah...
We would have a PET rabbit and God help anyone who tried to refeed that rabbit.
But the croc boys were not animal people and somehow the trig got loose. Which was okay his enclosure was in a building so he was fairly easy to find. However it was some days before he was actually captured. My wife would spray him down everyday it was hot(TX in August) but I'm sure this pissed him off(stressed him out).
They finally did recapture him. But then he wouldn't eat. He was eating a large rat once a week so he didn't have to eat. But he had some serious nose rub from his escape.
All I know is when I finally got home even though he still had his weight he did not look like the same croc. By now it is late Oct. and even in TX the crocs are slowing down. He made it through winter I thought he would get back to eating instead I found him dead one day in the middle of March. Upsetting for a couple of reasons. Always felt like I didn't do quite right by him. I had a large enclosure 2 waters indoor and outdoor land. I had 2 trigs and 3 palps and one dwarf croc. They all got along. He upset the balance so he had to stay by himself in a smaller somewhat less nice enclosure.
Dude over the years I have been tempted to use gloves but I never do. I want every ounce of grip I can muster when I'm trying to hang on to a croc.
I know you don't know every croc guy in Canada but years ago I met a guy on this forum. He had a dwarf croc and I think a Cuban.
BUT he had a friend that had a pair of Orinocos. Do you know either guy?
I have one trig(female 3 foot) and one dwarf croc(female 2.5 feet). Good Luck. Nice animals and enclosures.
Danny

Sad story Danny.. That must have been pretty devastating for you. It's hard enough to find larger dwarf caimans it seems.. I have come to learn that almost any time you need to rely on another person to care for your animals, you may as well accept that there will be losses. I'm not sure of who the first guy you knew would be but the second is Karel Fortyn. I've met him a couple of times and he is good friends with friends of mine, although I don't know him extremely well personally. He has some cool crocodilians, especially for a Canadian as crocs are not a popular captive animal up here. He's got the pair of Orinocos, a black caiman, freshwater crocodile, the 3 biggest spectacled caiman I have ever seen, an adult gator, adult female dwarf croc, adult palepbrosus.. Those are among the hundreds of snakes and couple of dozen turtles hes got. He lives around 3 hours from me and his house/facility (I'm not sure which would be the more correct term lol!) is open to the public Fridays-Sundays. Other than Karel, I know only a small handful of people keeping crocodilians.. A good friend of mine has 5 dwarf crocodiles (4 hatchlings from September and one 30" animal), a 4 foot nile and 2 small alligators, a guy that owns Canada's only accredited reptile zoo and has an adult alligator and an adult American crocodile, as well as several smaller alligators used for out reach, and lastly, a friend of mine has a reptile zoo in Ottawa and has quite a number of crocs.. Many gators (including a pair of adults), 2 6 foot niles, palps, trigs, quite a few big fat old specs, a couple of small yacare caiman and 2 big female dwarf crocs. I'm sure the majority of people keeping larger or more rare animals don't make themselves as obvious as those who have baby caiman or alligators. Any pictures of your animals? I myself also have 2 30 inch alligators, a small palpebrosus and 3 small spectacled caiman.

Matt

Orinocos and black caiman dude that is an amazing collection I don't care where you live.
Sounds like you have a nice collection also.
I can't imagine your heating bill.
My collection is pretty diverse nothing real rare but I like them. it is hard to explain the pleasure I can get by just watching them lay out in the sun.
I have tons of pics unfotunately I'm not smart enough to post them. My oldest croc a female Yacare laid 30 eggs last year. Unfortunately no boy friend. This year my female Morelets 30 eggs same story. No boyfriend.
I have 2 adult female Siamese and a yearling Siamese.
2 5.5 foot male New Guineas. 5 niles 5-7 feet. 2 3foot niles.
2 salts, female is 5 feet male is almost 8 he is going to be a MONSTER. An American female 8 feet(on breeding loan).
5 Specs, 2 Yacare, 3 Palps, 1 Trig and 1 dwarf croc.
One day I'll tie my wife down (not literally) and make her figure out the whole posting pics thing.
Enjoyed meeting you.
Danny

Danny, EVERYTHING you have is rare (except the paleosuchus and spectacleds) up here!! You have a truly amazing collection as far as I'm concerned. Too bad my climate doesn't allow for keeping outdoors year round or I'd be actively hunting for whatever I could get my hands on. Nice meeting you also.

Matt

This is a link to the facility you fella aretalking about in Canada.
link

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

The gator osteoderms leave an impression as it is, I can't imagine them being sharp enough to cut skin...

When you mention a "tote", what is it that you use to transport your crocodilians? Do you ever utilize tape, or do you view it as additional stress?

The scutes on a gator feel like a gentle hand massage compared to a trig...really.
The few times I've had to transport a croc over 6 feet I have some fiberglass tubs I use.
When I am on the road the biggest croc I would take would be 5 feet and less. So for them I just use a big tote.
I never tape their mouths I know we had a discussion about this earlier this year but for the size I work with (shows) it is not necessary. And I just hate it. I know it doesn't hurt them. I know it is safer for everyone but for me I just hate it.
I walk a very thin line. I love my animals and I respect my animals. But I also make a living with them. The snakes are pretty easy but a lot of the animals you are "manhandling".
It adds drama to the show it reenforces my message that not all reptiles are appropriate pets. But I know they don't"enjoy" being
picked up and handled. I feel especially bad about my big alligator snapper because he is so old. He is also the star of my show people love him. I hate myself everytime I drag him out of his tub.
Probably more than you need to know. I don't tape.
Danny

Hey Danny, I keep some alligator snappers as well.. Couple of quick questions for you, how old is yours and do you have any estimation of a growth rate? I have an almost exact sized sexed pair that are both around 14 inches and weighing 22 pounds (this was what they weighed over a year ago when I last weighed them).They don't seem to grow overly quickly considering the sizes they'll reach. I also have what looks to be 1.1 that are around 8 inches, one hit a growth spurt 2 or 3 years ago and slowed, while the other slowly caught up. The last 2 I keep are both about 6 inches, I've had them since hatchlings and are both about 6 years now.

Matt

They grow SLOWLY.

Unlike the Chelydra they mature slowly and grow slowly, 15-25 years for sexual maturity, and to attain any real size takes several decades. Giants over the 100 pound mark are definately octogenarians but may realistically be centenarians.

Matt
One of my all time favorite animals.
I have several but I don't know that much about them. The only one I know a complete history on is at least 8 years old and about 7 inches. I think it is a female. As Riley says they just don't seem to grow fast. I think an inch a year is reasonable.
I have 2 big males one is 100lbs the other is about80lbs.
The 80 pounder is much older I have no proof but I estimate him to be well over a 100. The bigger turtle is younger just has the genes to be bigger.
The big one eats ducks(they're dead) that's his favorite.
Doesn't care much for fish or mammals. He'll eat chicken but ducks are his favorite.
They're amazing animals, in my show I say they should have been the national symbol for the U.S.
Danny
Hey Riley.

Hey Danny...

I have to say that they would have made a great national symbol...but I still have to say it should have been a horridus (wink).

Dude those kind of comments will get you kicked out of the croc-keepers union.
1) Alligator Snapper
2) American Alligator
3) Rattler (I'm not particular) Timber,WDB, EDB
Danny

Ok, thanks Danny. I'm a big turtle guy myself with the alligator snappers being right at the top of my favourites list. Do you feed yours much in the way of fruits? Mine seem to all eagerly gobble up melon and berries among other things. I feed a lot of fish also and occasionally beef, chicken and very rarely rodents.

Matt

Matt
Never have. But a loquat tree grows over the edge of their enclosure so they may have got some incidental fruit.
I'll try it.The big ones won't eat fish live or dead.
Some shows have a trout pond for the kids and while my big water monitor would suck them down like spaghetti, the snappers weren't impressed.
I'll try the fruit though thanks for the tip.
Danny

Danny,

That is interesting. A friend of mine has a couple 100 lbers and they blast the fish. Wonder why yours won't take it?

His will eat the occasional piece of fruit as well.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

hi danny, i don't know if you remember me, but i helped you with a little fair you did out in utah, first off, i want to thank you for letting me help and hold sparticus. he is one amazing turtle! and on the buisness side, i didn't know snappers ate fruit. i thought they were carniverous. and i agree with you that they should be the us emblem.

Nice!! they look really good! do they lay for you? you may have already answered that in a previous post, but i just checked the first pic you had up.. they look great though.