Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm calling the vet tomorrow (they're closed on the weekend) but I'm getting worried about my sav, and was wondering if anyone had advice.

He's been slowing down a little lately (last 2-3 months) and has been eating a bit less, and slowly losing weight. I had the vet run a fecal a couple of weeks ago and it came back clean so it isn't a parasite, but he hasn't been getting better either. He vomited Friday night (one partially digested rat, and some roach parts came up). The smell was horrible, but this is the first time I've had a monitor puke so I don't know if that's normal.

He's in a non-standard glass tank I picked up at a garage sale from a dude getting out of cichilids. It's about 5.5' long, by 32" wide and about 3' tall and weighs a freaking lot. It's in my living room cause I can't fit it through the hallway into the herp room. It's got a wood/wire mesh top my father in law helped me rig together. There's about foot and a half of this soil/sand/cypress chips mix I use that he burrows in. The warm end has an ambient temp in the low 90s, with the warmest part being about 120 F (right on top of a raised platform, under his flood lights). I've got a UV floruscent on him, cause I figured better safe than sorry. He eats a mixture of hissing roaches and small rats, feeding a couple of times a week, but less recently.

I keep the cage pretty plain--his raised platform, a couple of small pieces of piping big enough for him to hide in, the soil, and his water dish. I spot clean regularly. I have a floruescent fixture, as well as 3 heat lights on one side. I bought him back in the early/mid 90's, so he isn't a spring chicken, but I was under the impression they were supposed to live close to 20 years, and he's barely 13. I'm just nervous because this is the first time he's shown no intrest in food. I mean, even when he slowed down a bit, he'd still nab a roach or two, or scarf at least one rat.

You don't need vet you need a temp gun. Unless you are monitoring (no pun) your surface temps, youre guessing. If you have a temp gun, change the batteries - they do die.

Keep in mind your animal is a reptile. That means heat is your number one priority.

It is quite possible he threw up because of the inability to digest his/her food (IE lack of heat). Some pictures of your setup will help.

That could explain not eating as much - the temps may not be suffiecent to eat enough.

My Ackies use surface temps up to about 145 degrees.

Also ditch the mesh on the top only a small vent is needed.

Goodluck,
Mike C.

I use one of the ones Pro Exotics sells--the $25 one. I just replaced it too, cause my old one died on me (after a very long time). So the temps are verified not guessed. I should have clarified that.

You should increase the temp higher than 120 surface temp and also definately get rid of the screen top you loose all the humidity.
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Tom
1.2.0 Leopard Gecko (dot, spot, casper)
0.0.1 California King Snake (booboo)
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoise (tank)
0.0.2 Russian Tortoise (tito and lulu)
0.0.2 Red Ear Sliders (bernie and ernie)
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0.0.1 Western Soft shell (Squirt)
2.2.0 Bearded Dragon (marshmellow,Bubba,Sparkles,Alfredo )
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor (beef)
1.0.0 Peachfront Conure (kermit)
0.1.0 Love Bird ( KIKI )
1.1.0 Dog (layla and Rosco)
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0.1.2 Ferret (jordan RIP, Cosmo and Izzy)
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0.0.1 Spectacled caiman (wilbert)
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Lots Of Fish

I wish this board had an edit feature. The platform is, ATM, 127 point something. I tried getting around using a platform, but at the distance of 18" or so, it was too hard to keep that sort of temperature reliably available. So I put in a jury rigged platform for him, placing the surface about 10" below the lights, which allows a fairly constant temp in the 120s.

Just lower your light fixture or increase the amount of substrate to get to the light.

Again some pictures will help others help you.

Thanks,
Mike.

Have you successfully had the monitor in that cage/setup for 13 years? Or did you inherit the animal somehow and he is just 13 years old?

If he has been in those conditions for that long, even if the temps are a little low, it would evidently not be that.

What is successfuly?????? Kept alive in suboptimal temps?

If a reptile throws up what are the first two things you think of? I think of stress or temps just take some time to examine both factors and in most cases you'll probably be alright.

Mike.

I purchased him back in the 1990s; he's somewhere around 13-14. It's hard for me to remember that far back though and at that stage I didn't keep records. I know for certain that I got him well before I could drive, that's exact as I can get. But he's been mine the whole time. And when I started keeping him, prevailing theory was warm ends in the 80s, basking spots in the mid 90s, so that's how I kept him until maybe 2000. At that point I modified it--upping the temps to basking spots in the 110's-120s, etc. I've changed it up once or twice since then--the new larger cage a couple of years ago, as well as a burrowable substrate for him which he really enjoys.

Come monday after work I'll buy some more soil and maybe something to raise the platform (maybe put it on a couple of cinderblocks or buy some cheap untreated scrap lumber). I'd do it tonight but the hardware store's closed on sunday in hick town. Hopefully I can get him a near body sized area in the 140 range. I've gone ahead and put a bit of saran wrap over 1/2 of the screen lid (the other 1/2 has light fixtures on it). I'll give it a week or two and see if that helps.

I do have one question on humdity though; I thought that the burrows would provide sufficiently high humidity that the evaporation caused by screen lids wasn't an issue? Again, Ive put saran wrap over the part of the cage without the lights on it, so I'm just asking for clarification. I used to use tops but went away from them when I went to a burrowable substrate.

Successfully is having a sav for 13 years! I do agree with you though vomiting and lethargy first thing to come to mind is temps. Maybe dehydration?

On your humidity question. I often wondered the same thing, and was in your exact position in relation to it. I would put chopped rats in the cage for them and then 30 minutes later it looked like beef jerky....closed off the top and that process takes much longer now.

With an open top moisture freely exits your substrate and goes into the air and out of your enclosure - when the top is closed it slows the evaporation process. Your dirt stay moist longer which keeps your air moist longer.

Try the chopped rat thing for yourself

Goodluck,
Mike.

Rat jerky...ew. just ew.

I'm really worried about him. I picked him up this morning to check on him, and he barely responded. I also tossed on an extra heat bulb last night, just an extra halogen flood light I had. I went ahead and scheduled a vet visit for after I get off today. It doesn't look good though

Sir keep in mind.

You're lizard is 13 years old, you managed to keep the lizard through times when it was reccomended that your temps be 85 on the high...I mean, if anything you have learned alot along the way.

See what the Vet says and let us know.

Thanks,
Mike.

It sounds like classic winter time temp drops to me. Your bsking spot maybe the same 120ish but the overall temp of the cage is probably just a bit cool for him this time of year. The fact that you noticed it the last two or three months also points that direction. 120 is on the cool side for a basking temp anyway so try adding a light or doing something to otherwise bump the temps up a few degrees. it isn't going to hurt if that isn't your problem and access to higher temps will only help with any other problems.

cheers

Steve

Hi,

If you have had this animal for 13 years with no problems and for at least 2 years in this cage I don't think it is your husbandry. Is this the first time he eats less in winter?, if so that is not the cause eather.
Did the vet check for flaggelates too? If they use salt too lift out the eggs (don't know the correct english term) you can miss flagellates. They should use a native sample for that.
If they did, and found nothing you might have a real problem.
People are supposed to live for 75-80 years, but a lot of us don't make that eather.
If you go to the vet I would reccomend an ultrasound of the abdomen, and look fot tumors and or liverabcesses. A bloodcheck for liver and kindneys would be wise to if you can spare the money.

Jasper

He's been in th at cage a couple of years, but not in the same house. I only bought our house back in may of 08, so it took some doing to compensate for the different ambient temp (the house is cooler than the apartment we used to live in). So this is the first winter in our house he's had.

Hi,

If he is brumating, he wouldn't be losing weight and he wouldn't throw up. He still has a good spot to warm up, 120 F may not be optimal, but it is not bad, he should be able to digest food.
Only problem could be dehydration because of the open top, could close that off for about 90% (and adjust heating, so you don't boil him)
But if you really want to be shure I would recommend the ultrasound, if the liver is full of abcesses of they find a mass you know he probably won't get better, even with treatment or husbandry adjustments.

Jasper

Just because the cage has worked doesn't mean it always will. Since this is your first winter in this house that should be a huge red flag. That is the challenge of keeping monitors, you have to adjust things to suit their needs. Your symptoms sound like a monitor that can't quite get warm enough but isn't cold enough to brumate. Like I said your temps are already borderline too cold so up them and see what that does. A vet visit isn't going to hurt anything and isn't a bad idea but, the temps need to come up either way. I would be adding a heat source rather than elevating the basking spot. That way the soil is going to be warmer too which is actually where your problem most likely is.

Cheers,
Steve

I agree if you have kept it like that for 13 years thats not the problem... what you have changed is what you should be looking at if it is an environmental issue, you said you use soil what type, is it completely 100% herp friendly. Like nothing in it that would hurt anything like perlite or stuff to help plants grow or something. Have ou switched types of soil, switched where you get your feeders, switched anything else. Does he always have fresh clean water and is it clear of anything that could hurt anything, like do you use repti safe or anything. 13 years is old for a monitor here is a web file that has really basic medical issues on the bottom nothing to special there are great sites out there too this one is just really short and to the point... good luck!http://www.petco.com/caresheets/lizards/Monitor_Savannah.pdf

Petco AHHHH!!!!

You do realize that is a horrible caresheet, right?
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

What year did your retail store open? That's when I got him (back in colorado, years ago). That' settle for sure how old he is!

I've taken the chance to redo some of the caging--taped stuff over the lid, raised his platform some for hotter temps--but that seemed to be the only real critique of my husbandry.

I think our retail front was open from 1998 to 2001?

Years pass, I lose track.

2009 is the 16th year for PE though.

That caresheet is only going to cause the death of monitors, please, don't link it : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

So he's probably only 11, not 13 then Hard for me to remember too. although I imagine you've got more to keep track of than I do too LOL. I also still have a really, really nice boa constrictor I got that year from ya'll.

And yeah...that caresheet brings back memories of how people *used* to advise keeping them, ick.

that's the boa

old photo of the lizard in question--about 3 years ago

That is a great looking Argentine boa. They are one of my favorites.

I would definitely look at long term hydration issues as a possible source of the organ trouble, but still, at 10 years, you are WAY ahead of the success curve and life span of the average Savannah monitor.

Best of luck : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

There's a small impaction, which the vet says is easy to fix...but there's also something wrong with some organs. There's these things in his abdominal cavity, she noticed them during xrays. She showed them to me on the picture but I couldn't reall make it out at all. I've never seen an xray of my lizard healthy to compare to, there's just been a few checkups but they never xrayed him for those. The vets going to do surgery tomorrow to remove the impaction and find out what is going on with the lumps.

Hopefully you caught it in time. Good luck with the recovery.

Hi,

The lumps in and around the organs are most likely abcesses. If that is the case with him he can't be saved in my opinion. It could also be gout, which isn't good eather, that means his kidneys are failing, there is a treatment for that (lifelong)but only if his kidneyfailure isn't too bad.
I am sorry to say this but I think your monitor has a very slim chance of survival.

Jasper

I know, but I want to make sure that I've done what I can. So exploratory surger today. And we'll see what it turns up.

I wasn't even sure monitors could get them. I know tortises and beardies can so I guess I shouldn't be surprised though. She also saw a mass on his kidney and removed it, is biopsying it. He's recovering from surgery and they're working on hydrating him etc.

>>I wasn't even sure monitors could get them. I know tortises and beardies can so I guess I shouldn't be surprised though. She also saw a mass on his kidney and removed it, is biopsying it. He's recovering from surgery and they're working on hydrating him etc.

Keep us updated
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1.1.0 YBS
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1.0.0 Fire belly toad
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor
0.0.1 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
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2.1.0 Ball pythons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

Hi,

there was no obstruction in his GI-tract?
If they only problem is kidney stones, he just might survive this.
Let's hope little lump is harmless.

Jasper

*crosses fingers* I like my lizard and want him to live a long healthy life. A bit more refining of husbandry from this thread, and a good douse of vet care and maybe I'll have another decade with him!!

varanid, could you post the diet you had your monitor on? Is it roaches and rats mainly?

Yeah, 1-2 small rats/week, plus a handful of hissing roaches per week. I don't feed too many roaches at once because I don't want them getting out of his cage or breeding in it--like 2-3 at a time, up to 6 total in a day. I feed 3-4 days/week so he's eating a few rats and maybe 15-25 roaches/week. Sometimes I'll feed him silkworms or other insects, depending on local availablity, but that's sporadic. I just do it because any new food sorta gets a reaction out of him and it's cool to watch him figure out how to eat them.

I wonder what caused him to get sick all of sudden?

Given the things I've gleaned from this, I'd expect chronic deyhydration probably helped it along, but it wasn't a sudden illness I don't think. I'm not real sure how kidney stones work, the extent of my knowledge about 'em is that my grandpa had 'em and now my lizard has them. But if there were several, then it may just have taken a while for them to build up to the point where they blocked his vent. The growth I have zero idea about though.