Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello i am A proud owner of a desert king age 3, i wanna know how to sex Him/her, because around my house i commonly find eastern kings and i wanna try and breed to see what morphs i can create. Beside probing are there other means of of sexing these kings?

First i would not breed him to an eastern king because they are to closly related and it may dirty up the gene pool. Try instead to breed your speckled to a tricolor milksnake or pitophus or something..

As far as the SeXing. Post a pic here of the underside of the tail to the vent. Many here will probably agree by site alone.

eer...I meant to type sight.

Well at least you give unique advice Rainer. lol
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Randy Whittington

LOL I was thinking the same thing!
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Really you thought it was strange advice. Why? Geez I thought it was perfectly good advice.

Do you really think telling people not to hybridize or will make them curb doing that? I think it is better someone make obvious hybrids rather than something like a eastern x speckled king. It all really only effects us that are working with a particular species 'look' anyway. So it is all about perserving what some think is special or has more monetary value.

Either way I don't really care what people do in their own homes. Over the last 30 years most consnakes and other colubrids in the hobby are already hybridized to death.

Tyen you have snakes in the wild hybridizing. They are all evevolving. I remember a genetists who dabbled in snakes once say that most all N. amercican colubrids all came from s. americam milks. -

I guess that is why there are so many allelic traits across subspecific lines (another fact that would not be realized unless somebody hybridizes them to prove that out)..
Does anyone know the percent of possibility of two types of recessive traits that are compatiple from 2 spp existing thousands of miles apart? I think it is a a billion plus to one of that happening unless the snakes all come from the same ancestoral gene.

The advice did contain a certain logic. I'm sure it had the anti hybrid crowd tearing their hair out!. Thats what made it funny to me. I'm still tickled.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

I'm sure it had the anti hybrid crowd tearing their hair out!.

Yeah but that "crowd" of aniti hybrid folks is getting less and less and is more of a small group as we learn more about herpetoculture. The former brow beating done by a few (IMO weird) anti-hybrid folk is wearing off.

Keep and breed what you like. Everyone is different and that is what makes us special. But I don't think ones group intimidation (hate) tactics are what this hobby needs.

Seems many are against the "hybrid" idea. I probably would not cross breed any snakes but that is just me. Like a friend of mine used to say "Do what you can handle". To each his own.

"Do you really think telling people not to hybridize or will make them curb doing that?"
No, but if people realized that there's less of a market for snakes sold as hybrids - compared to those sold as "pure" - it might curb them.

"I think it is better someone make obvious hybrids rather than something like a eastern x speckled king."
At first that sounds like a good idea. But then people quit the hobby and the snakes get handed off to someone else who either thinks they're pure or doesn't know what they are, outcrosses them and then sells the baies as something they're not.

"So it is all about perserving what some think is special or has more monetary value."
So breeding snakes is not about preserving genetic integrity?

"Over the last 30 years most consnakes and other colubrids in the hobby are already hybridized to death."
Can you give some insight on what "most consnakes and other colubrids" have been hybridized with?
Like specific morphs that are being marketed as pure, but are actually proven to be hybrids?
I like the way you call them "consnakes" (though I'm sure it's just a misspelling) because it's like people are "conned" into thinking that the snake they are buying is pure.

"Tyen you have snakes in the wild hybridizing. They are all evevolving."
I thought you were a creationist. Most wild snakes don't hybridize. Part of the theory of evolution comes from Darwin's rule "variation occurs within a species."
So the evolving is not done via hybridization, but rather individual variations (which can be easy to see when looking at a newly hatched clutch of eggs) of a single species.

"I remember a genetists who dabbled in snakes once say that most all N. amercican colubrids all came from s. americam milks. - "
Could be. But if Great Apes have a single ancestor, why aren't zoos crossing Lowland Gorillas and Orangutans?
Answer: Because they are trying to preserve unique species and subspecies. We don't just "throw in the towel" and hybridize because thousands of years ago animals had a common ancestor.

"Yeah but that "crowd" of aniti hybrid folks is getting less and less and is more of a small group as we learn more about herpetoculture."
Interesting. I've been going to shows for 20 years and snakes marketed as hybrids have consistantly made up less than 5% of the animals at shows. I do not think that statement you made is accurate at all.

Tim

Tim, what you say is probably true, I love going to shows, but with the internet sales of herps and mega stores, you never know what you're gonna get. many stores don't even know the history of the snakes they get, and a lot of the employees could care less where they came from. I can never get a straight answer from people at pet stores about the animals. That said, while I like my snakes to be natural intergrades or as pure as I find them, and research the heck out of them, and I don't have any known hybrids, I don't condone those who do, just those who don't tell. I hope to join your shows this year as a vendor! Most people don't like the look of some naturally occurring snakes, but I really like the variety of what comes from outside. I don't sell wild caught, but do use them for breeding stock.

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Todd Hughes

"I don't have any known hybrids, I don't condone those who do, just those who don't tell"

I think you meant to say condem. In any case I found this to be an honest and balanced statement and an example of why i read all your posts.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

Thanks Tony, I was concentrating on my spelling this time, not context, lol! I rephrase, I neither condone or condemn those who hybridize, just condemn those that don't tell the truth about it. I do believe a hybrid is a hybrid and a cross is a cross. They both occur in nature but way more frequently than the keyboard observer notes! Tim, if the carolina anoles start breeding with the brown anoles, would you consider it a cross or a hybrid?

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Todd Hughes

It's not really a matter of opinion on the anoles. If they're seperate species, then yes, they'd be hybrids. If they're seperate subspecies, then they'd be intergrades. This is according to the definitions that most people who post here go along with. (And yeah, I know there's "unnatural intergrades" so there's no need to get into that topic.)

I'm not saying hybrids don't happen in nature. What I questioning is that is they're so common (as several people who post here repeatedly say they are) then why aren't there more pics. I mean Eastern Garter Snakes are common, and I can find lots of pics of those.

One pic of a hybrid found in the wild doesn't represent "common" to me. And again, I'm not saying there's not more, but where are the pics?

Tim

>>>>but where are the pics?
>>
>>Tim

This assumes you can identify a hybrid by a photo. In some cases you can, but in most cases you can't, which is exactly why the topic is so controversial and arguments like this persist on the internet - because a photo of an animal is not proof, where DNA work can be definitive proof.

Here's a photo for you - it's a wild caught snake, identify it.

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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Tim,

I have been going to shows for over 30 years and it is not a way to guage what is going on in herpetoculture.

Hybrids sell 10 times faster than any other colubrid on the internet. If they are pretty they will sell fast. So it would stand to reason hybrids are popular.

Your attention to other areas is perhaps making things like hybrids appear unpopular. Or maybe it is the group of friends you share your interests with. Bottom line get some colorful hybrids and post them on the internet and see what happens. You will never see a faster or better selling snake IF it is colorful.

As far as which reccessive traits are allelic. Do some research on the HYBRID forum or ask some folks that same question there. I could give you a few examples off the top of my head but it surely would not be an exhaustive account. Either way that would not be the best method since you need to learn more about hybrids and reading a few websites would be more informative for you.

And yes i am a creationist. When I said snakes are evloving was the wrong term. They breed each other and the look changes. Similar to what people do when they reproduce. It does not mean they turn into something else like a monkey to a man.

Here is a picture of a gopher x calif kingsnake that was wild caught on a private ranch in northern calif.

"Your attention to other areas is perhaps making things like hybrids appear unpopular."

You touch on something here that I think has a lot of truth to it. I used to get a lot of mess on the boards over my crossing of locality coastals in order to strengthen the hypo line. Despite all the noise, my coastals sell just fine. People want healthy well-bred animals that look nice and are properly represented. The rest is semantics to all but a few.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

"Hybrids sell 10 times faster than any other colubrid on the internet."
Then how come there aren't 10 times more hybrids being sold on the internet than "pure" snakes?

"You will never see a faster or better selling snake IF it is colorful."
And what if it's not? The vast majority I've seen aren't. What happens to the "uncolorful" snakes?

"Do some research on the HYBRID forum or ask some folks that same question there"
That sound good at first, but from what I've seen hybrid breeders aren't particularly honest or accurate in their statements.

"I could give you a few examples off the top of my head but it surely would not be an exhaustive account."
Well what are the examples?

"Here is a picture of a gopher x calif kingsnake that was wild caught on a private ranch in northern calif."
Yes, and two-headed snakes occur in nature too - it doesn't meant that they are meant to survive.

Tim

tim, dicephalism is not even comparable to hybridization. come'on thats weak to even make that comparison. if you wanna see a real hybrid cross a turtle and a snake or lizard thats a hybrid, snakes bred to snakes producing more snakes is quite natural.
pretty sells.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
click it and keep on smilin man
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"snakes bred to snakes producing more snakes is quite natural."

Really?
Then how come Rainer digs up that old Brian Hubbs photo every time he says hybrids occur in nature?
If it's so natural, then why aren't there more pics of wild hybrids?

There's more photos of wild two-headed snakes than wild hybrids, which, according to your logic, would make two-headed snakes more "natural" than hybrids.

(:

Tim

come on tim i would imagine rainer posts that pic because it is DEFINITIVE PROOF that crosses happen in nature. as to more pics of wild crosses i would imagine most would be indistinguishable. just imagine that gopherXking cross breeding back to either parent ssp after a few generations i doubt anyone would be able to tell anything it would become absorbed into the population could this also explain pattern abberancies in certain locales hmmmmm?. imho this happens alot and captive crosses show how closely related all these snakes actually are. as a creationist also i can say evolution happens its rediculous to deny it, but to say all life came from magik goo and there is no GOD i just cant buy that.
snakes looks are developed/honed/changed to suit their environment all living beings are, arent they?
2headed snakes on the otherhand are a genetic mutation a mistake. i cant beleive you could even compare the 2 maybe its a joke i dunno
anyway like dave boyles sig.and LZ's song say in the light... you will find the road.

turn it up loud and shake that booty,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

np
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Sometimes I think the kid with two pet snakes has something that those of us with 50 to 200 lost a long time ago.

>>If it's so natural, then why aren't there more pics of wild hybrids?
>>

Hybridization between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature, and in some species, hybridization plays an important role in evolutionary biology.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

How about some examples with photos?
I reckon that's what I've been repeatedly asking for, yet I've only seen one picture.
If hybridization is so common in nature, how come there's just one pic?

Tim

>>How about some examples with photos?
>>I reckon that's what I've been repeatedly asking for, yet I've only seen one picture.
>>If hybridization is so common in nature, how come there's just one pic?
>>
>>Tim

I'll give one example of many, basiliscus and molossus. There are more, do your own homework.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"Hybridization between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature, and in some species, hybridization plays an important role in evolutionary biology."

Thank you Joe. When I say it, it sounds like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing! LOL
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Darwin Rocks!

>>"Hybridization between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature, and in some species, hybridization plays an important role in evolutionary biology."
>>
>>Thank you Joe. When I say it, it sounds like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing! LOL
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>>Darwin Rocks!

Well that's what this whole thread sounds like! But seriously, some of the brightest minds in Herpetology choke on that fact, including myself until a few years ago. Advancements in DNA research have shown this to be fact.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"Hybrids sell 10 times faster than any other colubrid on the internet."
Then how come there aren't 10 times more hybrids being sold on the internet than "pure" snakes?

Ahh because they sell faster. The other snakes keep getting posted over and over again.LOL!

"You will never see a faster or better selling snake IF it is colorful."
And what if it's not? The vast majority I've seen aren't. What happens to the "uncolorful" snakes?

Well you hold onto them. Anyone that knows squat about hybrids knows the money makers are the first generation cross which usually come out ugly. But what they throw (first gen) is where all the wild abberancies and solid colors come from . This is like hybrid 101. Do some more research on them like I suggested.

"Do some research on the HYBRID forum or ask some folks that same question there"
That sound good at first, but from what I've seen hybrid breeders aren't particularly honest or accurate in their statements.

Gee . If anyone is more honest in this hobby it is the hybrid breeders. Why would they have anything to hide? They are hybrids for gosh sake! It is the folks who are secret closet hybridzers and plan to crreate a new morph all the while spouting the eveils of hybrids that are DISHONEST. hmmm

"I could give you a few examples off the top of my head but it surely would not be an exhaustive account."
Well what are the examples?

LIKE I SAID DO SOME RESEARCH. Therre are tons of examples and are probably adding more every year.

"Here is a picture of a gopher x calif kingsnake that was wild caught on a private ranch in northern calif."
Yes, and two-headed snakes occur in nature too - it doesn't meant that they are meant to survive.

Another fallicy. Of course they survive . Matter of fact probably better than most of either species that created it (hybrid vigor). Boy this side of breeding reptiles has more wives-tails than one can shake a stick at...Power feeding anyone??

Posted by: Tony D at Tue Jul 5 12:37:43 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Locality specific - Any animal captive-bred or wc that has a credible claim to the local of original collection.

"Ahh because they sell faster. The other snakes keep getting posted over and over again.LOL!"

Not true and you know it.

"Well you hold onto them. Anyone that knows squat about hybrids knows the money makers are the first generation cross which usually come out ugly. But what they throw (first gen) is where all the wild abberancies and solid colors come from . This is like hybrid 101. Do some more research on them like I suggested."

I've seen alot of ugly hybrids at shows. Black Rat X Black Pine Snakes come to mind. They were going for $10 each. No one was holding onto them for future generations. I've seen several hybrids given to a local pet store over the years. Again, no one was holding onto them. The wanted to get rid of them. So much for "Hybrid 101."

"If anyone is more honest in this hobby it is the hybrid breeders. Why would they have anything to hide?"

I've seen albino greybands sold at shows as "pure" snakes. What they have to hide is the fact that they're hybrids.

"LIKE I SAID DO SOME RESEARCH. Therre are tons of examples and are probably adding more every year."

You made the statement, now if it's true, back it up with some proof. Telling me to do research doesn't qualify as such.
You promote the ideal that virtually all captive bred mprphs are hybrids, but you don't back up your statements with specific examples.
And you say hybrid breeders are honest?

Another fallicy. Of course they survive.
Really? Why is there only one piece of proof then? Does Bigfoot survive too? Because I've seen a photo of that dude.

You have tried to make it sound like anti-hybrid people went fom the majority to the minority. And that simply isn't true.
Maybe you could learn more if you DO SOME RESEARCH.

Tim

You have tried to make it sound like anti-hybrid people went fom the majority to the minority. And that simply isn't true.
Maybe you could learn more if you DO SOME RESEARCH

My reseach is my bank account. Everyone that knows me knows that I support my family off snakes. I have been doing so for the last 5 1/2 years exclusivly after i quit my carrer job.

The hybrids werre the best sellers par none.

And of course if you are stupid enough to breed a Blackrat to anything you will get $10. snakes. lololol!

Here are some more ugly hybrids:

Oh I don't know how that second to the last pic got in there but that guy on the far left is the funniest of the bunch.

Those didn't show up, but that's OK, because I had no interest in seeing them anyway.

You still didn't answer the questions about snakes that are hybrids which are being marketed as "pure." According to you, that's a pretty long list.

Also, if hybrid breeders are so honest, why is it that these snakes which have been "hybridized to death" aren't marketed as such. Wouldn't they be sold as what they are if their breeders are honest?

Tim

Interesting. I've been going to shows for 20 years and snakes marketed as hybrids have consistantly made up less than 5% of the animals at shows. I do not think that statement you made is accurate at all.

Actually 5% sounds pretty good when you have so many different divisions like geckos, iguanas, skinks, torts and turtles, asian ratsnakes, boas (sand , rosy et all)and the many spp of kings and ratsnakes. Heck not even Florida kings and eastern kings make up less than 5% of most shows. Then you have the ever popolar cornsnake (consnake)which has everything under the sun bred into it. Take the creamsicle for instance. You do know that creamsicles are a cross and then bred into many other morphs? Heck most consnakes have yellow ratsnake in them of some other ratsnake gene from Florida. Even the ones in the wild hybridize quite fequently with other ratsnake species.

But cornskaes aside a hybrid to me is when you breed two snakes like a milksnake and a ratsnake and not closely related ratsnakes or kings.

"Actually 5% sounds pretty good when you have so many different divisions like geckos, iguanas, skinks, torts and turtles, asian ratsnakes, boas (sand , rosy et all)and the many spp of kings and ratsnakes."

My point is that their marketshare hasn't increased, which shows that interest in them is limited and stable (not growing, as you are implying). Crested geckos (which were thought ot be extinct in the mid-90s) have increased dramitically in marketshare. So have Ball Pythons.

Tim

Colubrids can be everted, probed, viewed, palpated, and behaviorally sexed. If you do not know how to do these things or what to look for, it does you no good.

While adult kings are easy to sex. Even the experts make mistakes. So to explain it to you, in a dry text manner, may not be the best approach.

Try posting pics and get people envolved, then maybe, all this will come out, while everyone is actually participating. Cheers

>>Colubrids can be everted, probed, viewed, palpated, and behaviorally sexed. >>

I like that you mentioned "behaviorally sexed." A very useful method IMO.
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Mark

Jest because you could dosn't me you should. I don't get how some people can't see how inheriently destructive the practice is. I think the only responsable thing to do would be to destroy them all.