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I currently have a 4yr old male Brooks and some '08 hatchlings (M & F)I purchased last year from various sources - they all are supposed to be of the Brooks variety. How do you tell the difference between a Brooks and a regular Fla King? Being a novice, they both look the same to me except the Brooks generally look lighter in color; however, when looking at morphs both the Brooks and Fla Kings look the same - at least to me!

If there's any information out there on how to differentiate between the two it would greatly be appreciated?

The color has nothing to do with it. Dark brooksi can be found in the same range as the lighter ones in South Dade county, FL. It is really a locality thing. The whole brooksi has been done away with and they should all be called Floridana unless one has locality data. And even then the Brooks term is incorrect.

Brooksi is just a color phase of Floridana from extreme south peninsular Florida. Mixed in with the light ones, there are dark Florida kings. It has been said that brooks were smaller than FL kings and had shorter heads. Neither of these are consistent features.

In captivity, kings sold as brooks should at least be light colored and have the brooksi look. Most Florida king morphs are sold as brooksi. Some, like the lavender and whiteside morphs often have really dark hets that look like dark Floridana. Judging from some of the patterning on lavender Florida kings, I'm pretty sure that the lavender trait was borrowed from Cal kings.

Some, like the lavender and whiteside morphs often have really dark hets that look like dark Floridana. Judging from some of the patterning on lavender Florida kings, I'm pretty sure that the lavender trait was borrowed from Cal kings.

Well the hypos have wild "patterning" as well. But only in the visual hypo form. The same goes for the lavender gene. It is only in the visual "lavender albino " form that the patterns are interupted from the norm. With the Whitesided the top pattern is pretty screwy as well.

So what I am saying is just because pattern is effected in a visual reccessive trait does not give any validity to it being borrowed. But i am not saying they aren't either .... Just that pattern effect has no bearing on wether an animal is hybridized or not.

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={8796E2EE-BD5F-482A-A7FF-C871DA00CC68}&exp=f&moddt=39824.0243250926&ssdyn=1[/img]

But then has anyone seen the funky patterned locale specific Florida kings ---

I'm actually looking at hets for the most part when I say the lavender looks like Cal cross. Something about the head and neck region just looks off.

The lavender I have is supposedly originally from Steve Osborne, and is an old snake. I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was 15 years old. The snake mostly looks like Floridana, but has a lower band count, and lower chain pattern than I'd expect. The weirdest thing about this snake is that the musk smells completely different than a floridana. I've caught kings in Dade County, all over the canefields, around Tampa/St Pete, and in the Gulf Hammock regions of Florida, and none of them have had musk like this. Smells like skunk!

I saw some albino and het FL kings in 93 that had the identical color you see in lavenders today. Don't know if these are the same line or not but the ones I saw were definate crosses. That said, I'm not sure it matters for a morph but I would like to at least know.
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That is a a completely narcistocanibolizistic thing to say!

It is easy for anyone to create this cross and most Florida residents with a lavender Cal king have tried to breed it to the king they find in their backyard.. What confuses me though is there are different (none allelic) lines of the California king and WHY hasn't there been any reports of two lavender albinos producing normal looking hets. Can anyone explain this???

The Whitesided trait (to me) looks more like a cross and if it is it is a true hybrid cross. The WS that I have behaive differently. I used to keep WS blackrats and the WS Floridana seems similar in behavior.

The lavender albinos we see today that originate from Osborne/Ricks stock definetly look like the real deal. Maybe they are so refined that for all intense puposes they became "pure"...Even in livestock hybridzation comes in and after a certain amount of back breeding one cannot tell from DNA .

Everything from the heads to the size and girth look real from the Osborne/Ricks stock. I mostly look at the heads to determine which are pure. Then there are several out there that definetly have some calif king influence. This can usually be told in the shape of the head.

....please quit saying this:

"most Florida residents with a lavender Cal king have tried to breed it to the king they find in their backyard.."

It is simply incorrect.
I know what you mean but it puts every person in FL in the same boat.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Well of course not most ALL of the Florida residents. But shows like the Tampa show has a cali x florida king on half the tables when I visited 4 years in a row. When I was there in the 90's I was amazed to see so many Florida residents just breed their cali king to a Florida king. I spoke with most of those vendors and that is exactly what they told me. They just bred the hell out of Calif x Florida kings.

Here is a Don Stipp Goini x Calif king special. He was one of the many vendors at the tampa show that bred Floridnana into lavender calif kings as well as goini.

So Mark why so sensitive? Is it because you are a loyal Florida resident and you take offense at anything siad about Floridians or is the estrogen running high in your household?

Not that sensitive Rainer. You know that. There a lot of Floridians who keep and breed snakes (and many many more who do not) that you have not met, let alone make a blanket statement about. That's all.
btw, I can't see your pic.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Thats weird about the link not showing. I clicked on it and it is showing it on my computer.

I will try and post again here:

..same result. I'll try to copy.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Dang Mark !
I'm just ticked off that I'm just now being told after looking for locality pairs all these years that we could've been finding them in the backyards!

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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

LMAO... sums things up nicely!

Killer Hypo! Do these hold some red/orange into adulthood?

Is the patternless head pattern genetic or line bred?

either way that snake is sweeeeeet!

~Z

Thank you and Bluerosy for your responses and information. If I understand the responses correctly, I shouldn't be too concerned with Brooks v. Fla Kings when the time comes for me to obtain new animals and maybe begin to breed them?

Thank you and Bluerosy for your responses and information. If I understand the responses correctly, I shouldn't be too concerned with Brooks v. Fla Kings when the time comes for me to obtain new animals and maybe begin to breed them?

Unless you are looking for locality specific animals that trace back to wildcaught stock in S. Florida you should not be concerned.

It is rare these days to find morphs that originated from S. Dade county without having been outcrossed to the more northern Florida locales.

I understand why people want to know the differences but the bottom line is I think it is only really easy to see in wild types and not in any morphs.
This discussion gets people thinking and making statements which is what the forum is for but it mostly ends on a negative and this happens not only with Brooksi, it happens with most morphs.
There's a lot of speculation when it comes to history of morphs and even when one person comes on here and shares something most people do not know it is cast aside for the popular vote and forgotten.
I agree, that some snakes are not carbon copies of what these snakes were a decade or more ago, but that very well may come from those older... pure-er [if that's a word] morphs being bred into any old Florida King. These offspring may look a lot different however that does NOT mean the snake is anything other than Floridana....it's the Brooksi label that is tagged onto ALL morphs now that seems to bother people.
I don't think we'll all agree on this topic....it just gets people riled, insulted and misinformed. Just my two cents
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I borrow from the wisdom my good friend Greg Maxwell(only don't tell him I called him wise). When in doubt of the locale or morph, go by the general appearance. If it is a Floridana from central Fla. that has the light yellowy colors simply refer to it as a "Brooksi-type". This would eliminate any misrepresentation which occurs so often and can sometimes lead to major arguments and misunderstandings.Whattaya think?
By the way, in my absence did anyone ever post data to support or refute the keeping of Kings together?Or did anyone post pics of representative cages that show a huge temp. gradient and are smaller than the state of New Jersey?

>>Or did anyone post pics of representative cages that show a huge temp. gradient and are smaller than the state of New Jersey?

The secret is to use the chips that Lindsay posted a link to last year. My cages aren't built yet but the temp gradient is tested and works well and efficiently.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

"Or did anyone post pics of representative cages that show a huge temp. gradient and are smaller than the state of New Jersey?"

Eh gumbah! Fugghidabowdit..... Pinched again. Maron a mia!!!

And still no pictchas tough guy. Well, except for Joey "Two-Times" Purdum. The bastid slashed 'emself doing the right thing in building some stacks (and makin' a couple pairs o' cement shoes....), and everything he does he does twice. He's gonna be made someday, you'll see. Good to have ya back in the family.
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Jerry Kruse

"One often meets his destiny on the path he takes to avoid it". - Master Oogway